Male Cyclist of the year (2014)?

[peloton]

Nibali was concerned with the Dauphiné?

Contador was?

 

[cineteq]

This is a ridiculous argument you guys are having.

All 3 of them started the race, Nibali finished on the top step of the podium. End of story.

We can however say that Contador didn't beat Nibali in the Vuelta because Nibali didn't even start.

Well said.

Beware, now you've become a target, you'll be called troll by the Contador fanboys. They will try to destroy you. Those people have trouble handling the truth.

 

[cineteq]

Btw, I forgot to mention how Contador completely wiped Nibali's *** during the dauphine. That's beating someone

Dauphiné, the training race? LOL. Talking about ridiculous arguments, OMG!

 

[Ricco']

Contador was?

Probably not.

But comparing different riders with different preparations DURING their preparation is not dumb, is just stupid.

Or do you think that this is a computer game where when someone wants to target the same race they follow the same schedule and are at the same time with the same physical preparation and motivation?

 

[offbyone]

This is just lol. In 2009, Freire got shot in his *** at one point during the stage. According to your logic, if he had gotten shot in the head and had died on the road, it would mean everyone else had beaten him

A grand tour is won and lost by all kinds of things that don't have to do with your legs. You don't get to use those things as excuses.

You play a dangerous game. Because by your excuse laden measuring stick we could question every one of contador's wins as well because maybe the rider a few places behind him would have beat him if that rider didn't crash, or drop a chain, or got different weather, or get sick or...

In the end, there is only one measuring stick we can go by and that is the race results. And riders should never ever want to invalidate their competitor's wins because they would only be lowering the quality of their own wins.

 

[Jspear]

Dauphiné, the training race? LOL. Talking about ridiculous arguments, OMG!

I know it's funny isn't it...AC was just training. Imagine how he would have climbed in the Tour.

 

[cineteq]

I know it's funny isn't it...AC was just training. Imagine how he would have climbed in the Tour.

I don't have to imagine anything, I saw La Vuelta....there's your answer, or not?

 

[LaFlorecita]

I don't have to imagine anything, I saw La Vuelta....there's your answer, or not?

Sigh.... Just stop

 

[LaFlorecita]

I can't wrap my mind around this one. If someone crashes out and you don't, you've beaten them? What? No, they eliminated themselves. Be it because of luck, stupidity or whatever else. You did NOT beat them. That requires them to race against you till the end.
Nibali beat Contador on stage 2
Nibali beat Contador on stage 5
Contador beat Nibali on stage 8
Nibali did not beat Contador on stage 10 or any other from that point on, however well he raced. Contador wasn't in the race anymore, hence he could not beat him.
I see how those who disagree with the above keep avoiding the question about Kittel and Cheng Ji? They are better GT riders than Contador and Froome because they were lucky enough not to crash out? Are we now going to rank GC riders on luck and not on skills? Contador crashed out in 2014, ergo Nibali beat him, ergo he is the better GC rider? Come on!

 

[richo36]

that is obviously not what I was getting at.

Let me spell it out for you.


It was.


Not relevant


Alberto was not in top shape either.


You're completely disregarding the fact that Valverde is always stronger in Spain and that the mountain stages in la Vuelta are a lot different. In the two mountain stages that were even remotely similar to Tour stages Valverde lost 1 minute to Contador in each.


You forget that he would have likely been 1.5 minutes behind after the TT anyway


Froome not in top shape and Valverde in Spain is still miles better than Papy Peraud and Pinot.

See what I meant?

Ok going by your logic, boonens Flanders win in 2012 was against weak competition as Fabian crashed mid race???

If we start heading down this path of degrading performances as someone crashed out its a slippery slope for a lot of races.

I'll admit there is some flaws to my valverde point. My point I was starting to get to was, just because the big 2 finish the race doesn't mean the competition was strong at the vuelta. As you said contador was not in top shape, froome wasn't in top shape. So the gaps to the rest of the field were close to riders who had just finished another GT. Really if valverde didn't ride the tour he could of had a shot at winning (and valverde isn't even in the same league in a gt as the above 2). Also Quintana didn't stand a chance at the Vuelta. Due to the climbs not suiting his style. Vuelta favours explosive climbers.

I admit, I know that beating peraud and Pinot in a gt isn't a big deal. So Yeah it is weak competition. My overall point was that saying nibali won the tour because contador crashed is wrong. It ignores that nibali was in a commanding position. Contador still could of won, not arguing that, just it definitely was not a sure thing.


@RedRick. Neither of us are going to agree, as you believe he would have, I'm not 100% he would have.

However dauphine is not an argument for it. Was a training ride were nibali was riding himself into shape.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I admit, I know that beating peraud and Pinot in a gt isn't a big deal. So Yeah it is weak competition. My overall point was that saying nibali won the tour because contador crashed is wrong. It ignores that nibali was in a commanding position. Contador still could of won, not arguing that, just it definitely was not a sure thing.

Good, then we agree. I personally wasn't sure Contador would've won, between stage 5 and 8 I was cursing the stupid cobbled, then after stage 8 I thought - hey, there's still a chance, Contador is obviously a lot better uphill
Then after stage 10, obviously I did not want to think about it anymore, but after I saw what Alberto did at la Vuelta I am about 60% sure Contador could have closed that gap in the remaining mountain stages. 20% sure he could have gotten it down to an acceptable level before taking back the rest in the TT. There is still some doubt in my mind but if he hadn't been able to take back all that time I'm sure he would've been close (within 30s)

 

[richo36]

I can't wrap my mind around this one. If someone crashes out and you don't, you've beaten them? What? No, they eliminated themselves. Be it because of luck, stupidity or whatever else. You did NOT beat them. That requires them to race against you till the end.
Nibali beat Contador on stage 2
Nibali beat Contador on stage 5
Contador beat Nibali on stage 8
Nibali did not beat Contador on stage 10 or any other from that point on, however well he raced. Contador wasn't in the race anymore, hence he could not beat him.
I see how those who disagree with the above keep avoiding the question about Kittel and Cheng Ji? They are better GT riders than Contador and Froome because they were lucky enough not to crash out? Are we now going to rank GC riders on luck and not on skills? Contador crashed out in 2014, ergo Nibali beat him, ergo he is the better GC rider? Come on!

I'm not saying nibali is a better GT rider than contador tho. Saying that as of when contador crashed, nibali was in the commanding position to win already. Kittel and co were behind on GC so I would then have to assume they would make up time in the mountains/TT. However if at the start of this years tour before any stage who is favourite, I would of said contador. Even now if they raced on the same route again, and they were all in the form they were in contador would be favourite. However we were over a third of the way into the race, which starts to give you an idea of who has the best chance of winning.

 

[Red Rick]

Dauphiné, the training race? LOL. Talking about ridiculous arguments, OMG!

Did I say it was a massively important race? I was giving an example of a rider beating another rider

 

[LaFlorecita]

I'm not saying nibali is a better GT rider than contador tho. Saying that as of when contador crashed, nibali was in the commanding position to win already. Kittel and co were behind on GC so I would then have to assume they would make up time in the mountains/TT. However if at the start of this years tour before any stage who is favourite, I would of said contador. Even now if they raced on the same route again, and they were all in the form they were in contador would be favourite. However we were over a third of the way into the race, which starts to give you an idea of who has the best chance of winning.

Of course. (Don't forget though that they hadn't raced any MTFs yet.)

The discussion here is whether a rider crashing out was beaten by all those who finished.

 

[The Hitch]

Dauphiné, the training race? LOL. Talking about ridiculous arguments, OMG!

As I recall you ridiculed everyone who said froome would win the tour after the dauphine last year, and you even more harshly ridiculed everyone who said Wiggins would win the tour after the 2012 dauphine. In both cases you laughed at the idea that the dauphine meant anything, suggested they were peaking to early and in 2012 offered instead, surprise surprise, Vincenzo Nibali as the outstanding favourite for the tdf who would wipe the floor with everyone.

So you have both a history of grossly underestimating the importance of the dauphine as a measuring stick for the tour and grossly overestimating the super powers of your beloved Nibali.

Both of which come out quite strongly in this thread.

Though I suppose your singleminded reluctance to learn from your mistakes is to be admired, if not envied.

 

[Dr. Juice]

People act as like two and a half minutes were like ten minutes. There were 6 mountain stages (!) to recover time. While Nibali is better than 2-3 years ago, a Contador in top shape is simply superior in the mountains. 6 mountain stages where he would have put the world on fire....every stage.

To take back 40 seconds on the hardest climbs and 20 on the easier ones ( Risoul) would have been sufficient. But you can bet your house that he would have attacked before the last climb on the Pla d'Adet stage.
But that's a bit too simple to just count like everything was linear.

If you are superior in the mountains ( it hasn't to be worlds above but everyone who thinks Contador in top shape is not stronger than Nibali is delusional) and attack every day....the one who is inferior might either crack or not crack at some point during the race.
It wasn't necessary for Contador to completely crack him in order to win, but the chances of that happening (Nibali cracking) were not bad.
Still, 30 seconds on Chamrousse...30 on Hautacam...35 on Pla d'Adet...25 on Port de Bales...20 on Risoul and 15 on La Planche would have put him equal....
I' m sure Nibali was going to feel the pain either on Pla d'Adet or Hautacam...the pain from trying not to lose too much time every day.
It would have been a completely different race.

Dominance always makes an impression on those who watch, even if it's against 2nd tier GT riders. You can't quite imagine a Nibali struggling because you saw him at ease. Don't let that impression condition yourself psychologically. Keep a clear head and think with reason.

 

[richo36]

Of course. (Don't forget though that they hadn't raced any MTFs yet.)

The discussion here is whether a rider crashing out was beaten by all those who finished.

My view on this is that nibali beat contador however when it comes 2015 I won't be saying well nibali beat contador in the tour as an argument.

As I recall you ridiculed everyone who said froome would win the tour after the dauphine last year, and you even more harshly ridiculed everyone who said Wiggins would win the tour after the 2012 dauphine. In both cases you laughed at the idea that the dauphine meant anything, suggested they were peaking to early and in 2012 offered instead, surprise surprise, Vincenzo Nibali as the outstanding favourite for the tdf who would wipe the floor with everyone.

So you have both a history of grossly underestimating the importance of the dauphine as a measuring stick for the tour and grossly overestimating the super powers of your beloved Nibali.

Both of which come out quite strongly in this thread.

Though I suppose your singleminded reluctance to learn from your mistakes is to be admired, if not envied.

(I know this isn't aimed at me but going to answer it anyway)

I think the importance of the dauphine depends on the rider. Wiggins and froome both used a consistent prep for the tour so it was important. And to be fair, I don't think a lot of people honestly believed that wiggins would win the tour. So saying nibali would win isn't to far fetched.

Also in the last 10 years only 2 people who have won the dauphine went on to win the tour. So easy to critique in hindsight

 

[LaFlorecita]

My view on this is that nibali beat contador however when it comes 2015 I won't be saying well nibali beat contador in the tour as an argument.

And that sets you apart from the *** Nibali fanbois in this thread, they would even point to this year as proof Nibali is a far superior stage racer.

My opinion is that you can't say rider A beat rider B if they didn't both race the entire parcours, but oh well

 

[The Hitch]

Also in the last 10 years only 2 people who have won the dauphine went on to win the tour. So easy to critique in hindsight

But all of the last 5 tdf winners before Nibali finished on the podium of the dauphine. No one is saying the winner of the dauphine automatically wins the tour. Contador didn't even win the dauphine, though he did podium and the other times he podiumed the dauphine he won the tour.. But those who have form at the dauphine are far far more.likely to then have form at the tour.

So it's not irrelevant and shouldn't be dismissed as some nib fans desperately try to.

At the end of the day Nibali has never shown that he could compete with contador in the mountains and contador has repeatedly shown that he can destroy Nibali and those on his level in the mountains and tts.

 

[richo36]

People act as like two and a half minutes were like ten minutes. There were 6 mountain stages (!) to recover time. While Nibali is better than 2-3 years ago, a Contador in top shape is simply superior in the mountains. 6 mountain stages where he would have put the world on fire....every stage.

To take back 40 seconds on the hardest climbs and 20 on the easier ones ( Risoul) would have been sufficient. But you can bet your house that he would have attacked before the last climb on the Pla d'Adet stage.
But that's a bit too simple to just count like everything was linear.

If you are superior in the mountains ( it hasn't to be worlds above but everyone who thinks Contador in top shape is not stronger than Nibali is delusional) and attack every day....the one who is inferior might either crack or not crack at some point during the race.
It wasn't necessary for Contador to completely crack him in order to win, but the chances of that happening (Nibali cracking) were not bad.
Still, 30 seconds on Chamrousse...30 on Hautacam...35 on Pla d'Adet...25 on Port de Bales...20 on Risoul and 15 on La Planche would have put him equal....
I' m sure Nibali was going to feel the pain either on Pla d'Adet or Hautacam...the pain from trying not to lose too much time every day.
It would have been a completely different race.

Dominance always makes an impression on those who watch, even if it's against 2nd tier GT riders. You can't quite imagine a Nibali struggling because you saw him at ease. Don't let that impression condition yourself psychologically. Keep a clear head and think with reason.

The difference is more the fact IMO it would be the first time that contador would be behind a tactically smart racer. Nibali would of had 2 and a half minutes to tactically play with. Doesn't have to chase contador every climb. Can ride tempo like froome did in the Vuelta.

 

[Red Rick]

The difference is more the fact IMO it would be the first time that contador would be behind a tactically smart racer. Nibali would of had 2 and a half minutes to tactically play with. Doesn't have to chase contador every climb. Can ride tempo like froome did in the Vuelta.

Riding tempo would be pretty dumb. He shouldn't just accept he's gonna loose time on every MTF. Better to get on the wheel on try to not loose any time at all. That's psychologically also a huge difference.

 

[richo36]

But all of the last 5 tdf winners before Nibali finished on the podium of the dauphine. No one is saying the winner of the dauphine automatically wins the tour. Contador didn't even win the dauphine, though he did podium and the other times he podiumed the dauphine he won the tour.. But those who have form at the dauphine are far far more.likely to then have form at the tour.

So it's not irrelevant and shouldn't be dismissed as some nib fans desperately try to.

At the end of the day Nibali has never shown that he could compete with contador in the mountains and contador has repeatedly shown that he can destroy Nibali and those on his level in the mountains and tts.

As I said dauphine depends on the rider, there is no doubt it shows a pretty good indicator for who is going to be on form. Was more the point that you stated that after the 2012 dauphine, cineteq was claiming that wiggins was not going to win the tour. Not that far fetched a comment. Wiggins had been on form all season, which is different to previous tour contenders (wiggins almost won everything so far that season). Others rising to form, while thinking wiggins can't maintain form. I'm pretty sure nibali would of been the favourite on the who's going to win the tour poll. I know I didn't expect wiggins to win. Obviously not going to try defend the froome comment. More defending what I don't think was nibali favouritism.

When was the last GT that nibali and contador have faced off against each? (Serious question)

Riding tempo would be pretty dumb. He shouldn't just accept he's gonna loose time on every MTF. Better to get on the wheel on try to not loose any time at all. That's psychologically also a huge difference.

1 example of what he can do. I'm not saying every climb ride tempo. Just depends on circumstances. More contador attacks from afar, just reel him in. If it's in the last couple Kms follow. But no harm in letting contador dangle off the front of the peloton if you can manage it. Overall point was nibali is a smart rider and will be able to ride tactically with a 2 and half lead

 

[Angliru]

Btw, I forgot to mention how Contador completely wiped Nibali's *** during the dauphine. That's beating someone

I would hope that you mean "whipped" and not "wiped".

 

[Angliru]

I'm not saying nibali is a better GT rider than contador tho. Saying that as of when contador crashed, nibali was in the commanding position to win already. Kittel and co were behind on GC so I would then have to assume they would make up time in the mountains/TT. However if at the start of this years tour before any stage who is favourite, I would of said contador. Even now if they raced on the same route again, and they were all in the form they were in contador would be favourite. However we were over a third of the way into the race, which starts to give you an idea of who has the best chance of winning.

Not when they hadn't encountered the mountainous stages yet. It's often said that the Tour is won and lost in the mountains and we never got the chance to see who would have prevailed.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I would hope that you mean "whipped" and not "wiped".

Oh man