McQuaid: 2010 Giro blood tests show cycling is cleaner

[Mellow Velo]

I think bordry is saying what the rest of us think.. that the bio passport is bs and that all the tests in the tour shouldnt be done by the governing body of cycling.

Of course we do and it is. Nothing more than a health and safety check for folks to fly under the radar.
In theory it's there to keep every performance within the bounds of physical possibilty.
Try and push the envelope and the UCI will expect a large envelope in return, or they will Pellizotti your a*s.

Anyhow, I kind of figured what would happen next, as a result of all this friction and, more importantly, the Landis/UCI finger pointing.
WADA to make the Tour testing area very crowded:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-afld-accusations-continue

 

[Hugh Januss]

What an interesting analogy you choose to draw.

So, Bordry is the blue collar policeman, bitter that he can't do his job. Bitter that he can't protect and serve and uphold the oath he took to keep crime scum and their prostitution, vice, murder and drug peddling off the street.

Armstrong is the mafia boss, the individual ultimately responsible for all that the policeman and the laws he swore to uphold stand against.

OK, I'll buy it. Thanks

And what is keeping Inspector Bordry from doing his job better? Possibly a small impediment known as UCI?

 

[131313]

Provide a link please to this data or statement by UCI.

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.co...c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

 

[goober]

http://cdn-community2.livestrong.co...c981f7be-e46c-4245-aa9d-d61ae110a264.Full.jpg

Yeah I have seen those - consistant Armstrong data; but, where is the Giro data showing the differing pattern or a statement by the governing body running the passport?

 

[131313]

Yeah I have seen those - consistant Armstrong data; but, where is the Giro data showing the differing pattern or a statement by the governing body running the passport?

you may have seen it, but you obviously haven't looked at it. It's not "consistant" (sic). You can claim all you want that it's not indicative of doping, but it's certainly not consistent, by anyone's definition of the word.

 

[Kennf1]

Yeah I have seen those - consistant Armstrong data; but, where is the Giro data showing the differing pattern or a statement by the governing body running the passport?

The Giro date would the numbers from 5/7 through 5/31.

 

[goober]

you may have seen it, but you obviously haven't looked at it. It's not "consistant" (sic). You can claim all you want that it's not indicative of doping, but it's certainly not consistent, by anyone's definition of the word.

Relax Tonto, the only claim I made was it is consitant with Armstrong (read my post again - obviously you need to). The original post said the Giro did not show similar results and I would like to see them.

 

[Kennf1]

Relax Tonto, the only claim I made was it is consitant with Armstrong (read my post again - obviously you need to). The original post said the Giro did not show similar results and I would like to see them.

You have to look at them to see them.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The Giro date would the numbers from 5/7 through 5/31.

You mean the the ones where the crit numbers fall consistently over the three weeks of the race, just like all the experts say they should, without blood manipulation?
I wonder why we see a completely different pattern for the tests done during the Tour?

 

[goober]

The Giro date would the numbers from 5/7 through 5/31.

Thank you.

 

[hrotha]

The Giro date would the numbers from 5/7 through 5/31.

For those of us who are new to this stuff and also don't happen to be doctors, what do those figures suggest?

edit: Ah, so the problem is how they compare to the TdF values, right?

 

[Kennf1]

For those of us who are new to this stuff and also don't happen to be doctors, what do those figures suggest?

edit: Ah, so the problem is how they compare to the TdF values, right?

Yes, the point was the comparison with the TdF pattern. The Giro numbers show a steady decline in both hematocrit and hemoglobin, with values of 43.5/14.8 on 5/7/09, ending with 38.2/13 on 5/31.

The experts who have commented on this field (people like Ashenden, not McQuaid) say that you should see this type of decline because of the constant physical stress over a three week stage race.

In the TdF, the numbers start at 42.8/14.3 on 7/2/09, and end at 43/14.5 on 7/25/09 (with ups and downs in between).

 

[goober]

Yes, the point was the comparison with the TdF pattern. The Giro numbers show a steady decline in both hematocrit and hemoglobin, with values of 43.5/14.8 on 5/7/09, ending with 38.2/13 on 5/31.

The experts who have commented on this field (people like Ashenden, not McQuaid) say that you should see this type of decline because of the constant physical stress over a three week stage race.

In the TdF, the numbers start at 42.8/14.3 on 7/2/09, and end at 43/14.5 on 7/25/09 (with ups and downs in between).

You cannot compare the two with the data sets provided. The Giro sample is statistically inadequate to identify a true biological profile for Lance. There are only 3 data points (1 pre-race) that are taken in varing conditions (rainy time trial vs flat warm rest day). There are many factors that manipulate a riders hemoglobin levels from riding conditions and fatigue, to eating conditions and dhydration, to possible doping by the rider, to biolical characteristics of the rider. Ashenden can make the generalized statement that a riders levels should lower over the span of a stage race. This rule can probably be applied to the general population of riders over consistent eating and hydration conditions given a true statistical sampling. If the TDF ended on 7/20 there would have been an indication of drop in levels. Maybe if Lance was tested on the 7/24 -vs- 7/25 there would have been a drop in levels? Maybe if he was tested on 5/30 -vs- 5/31 there would have been a rise (the logic of most here would be he doped both races)? Everyone's biolical passport is different; hence, the passport - varying anemic or kidney issues, etc. etc. etc. You have to look at long term and statistically adequate data (not avaiable from the Giro) - One of Bordry's points, although passport is not useless.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You cannot compare the two with the data sets provided. The Giro sample is statistically inadequate to identify a true biological profile for Lance. There are only 3 data points (1 pre-race) that are taken in varing conditions (rainy time trial vs flat warm rest day). There are many factors that manipulate a riders hemoglobin levels from riding conditions and fatigue, to eating conditions and dhydration, to possible doping by the rider, to biolical characteristics of the rider. Ashenden can make the generalized statement that a riders levels should lower over the span of a stage race. This rule can probably be applied to the general population of riders over consistent eating and hydration conditions given a true statistical sampling. If the TDF ended on 7/20 there would have been an indication of drop in levels. Maybe if Lance was tested on the 7/24 -vs- 7/25 there would have been a drop in levels? Maybe if he was tested on 5/30 -vs- 5/31 there would have been a rise (the logic of most here would be he doped both races)? Everyone's biolical passport is different; hence, the passport - varying anemic or kidney issues, etc. etc. etc. You have to look at long term and statistically adequate data (not avaiable from the Giro) - One of Bordry's points, although passport is not useless.

You really do keep hope alive, doncha skippy?

 

[goober]

You really do keep hope alive, doncha skippy?

Hope of what?

 

[Kennf1]

You cannot compare the two with the data sets provided. The Giro sample is statistically inadequate to identify a true biological profile for Lance. There are only 3 data points (1 pre-race) that are taken in varing conditions (rainy time trial vs flat warm rest day). There are many factors that manipulate a riders hemoglobin levels from riding conditions and fatigue, to eating conditions and dhydration, to possible doping by the rider, to biolical characteristics of the rider. Ashenden can make the generalized statement that a riders levels should lower over the span of a stage race. This rule can probably be applied to the general population of riders over consistent eating and hydration conditions given a true statistical sampling. If the TDF ended on 7/20 there would have been an indication of drop in levels. Maybe if Lance was tested on the 7/24 -vs- 7/25 there would have been a drop in levels? Maybe if he was tested on 5/30 -vs- 5/31 there would have been a rise (the logic of most here would be he doped both races)? Everyone's biolical passport is different; hence, the passport - varying anemic or kidney issues, etc. etc. etc. You have to look at long term and statistically adequate data (not avaiable from the Giro) - One of Bordry's points, although passport is not useless.

No one is trying to establish a "biological profile" of Armstrong using the three samples from the Giro. You asked to see the Giro numbers compared to the TdF numbers, so there you are.

It is my understanding that blood is taken in the morning, before the day's stage, to reduce the number of complicating factors such as dehydration.

I'm sure we would all like to see more complete date, but this was all that Armstrong was willing to publish (and it was later taken down from the Livestrong site once questions were raised). You will note that there is zero information provided with respect to Astana's internal testing.

No one is trying to convince you that Armstrong was doping, or that blood values can only go up if a rider infuses. The point of the thread had to do with McQuaid, who believes that we CAN rely on a limited set of data points from a three week race to conclude that a rider is clean. That statement conflicts with the Armstrong values from the TdF.

 

[Tubeless]

You cannot compare the two with the data sets provided. The Giro sample is statistically inadequate to identify a true biological profile for Lance. There are only 3 data points (1 pre-race) that are taken in varing conditions (rainy time trial vs flat warm rest day). There are many factors that manipulate a riders hemoglobin levels from riding conditions and fatigue, to eating conditions and dhydration, to possible doping by the rider, to biolical characteristics of the rider.

Can you explain how weather and flat vs. hilly terrain affect your blood values? How does "biolical" characteristic of a rider affect the changes of Hb and Hkr?

Lance ate and drank differently at TdF vs. Giro? Italian weather harsher than the sunny skies in France?

 

[Benotti69]

who devised the blood passport system, it seems it is something that is there to permit doping and yet at the same time trying to blind the world with biology and science...

 

[goober]

Can you explain how weather and flat vs. hilly terrain affect your blood values? How does "biolical" characteristic of a rider affect the changes of Hb and Hkr?

Lance ate and drank differently at TdF vs. Giro? Italian weather harsher than the sunny skies in France?

Stress on body effects bllod values (dehydration, etc.). Exactly what Ashenden says except he generalizes that it must go down when in fact a certain rider could recover differently based on habits or biolical. Which indirectly answers your second question.

As to the next set of questions, he probably did nothing different and the weather was probably not much different. Although a hotter day will lead to more dehydration, etc. my point was the statistical sampling was inadequate and you do not even need to look at these factors since the data does not truly show a statistical trend.

 

[autologous]

This whole debate highlights why Lance was so prescient in hiring Don Catlin to independently test and publish Lance's blood values for all to see, as part of the big comeback. Remove all doubt. Total transparency. Good thing we have those numbers to look at.

 

[goober]

who devised the blood passport system, it seems it is something that is there to permit doping and yet at the same time trying to blind the world with biology and science...

I don't know if you can trace it back to one group. Here is some good reading on how it works.

http://www.doping.chuv.ch/en/lad_ho...ire/lad-prestations-laboratoire-passeport.htm

 

[Kennf1]

This whole debate highlights why Lance was so prescient in hiring Don Catlin to independently test and publish Lance's blood values for all to see, as part of the big comeback. Remove all doubt. Total transparency. Good thing we have those numbers to look at.

Seems like only yesterday.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-parts-with-catlin

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-abandons-independent-testing-publication-of-blood-values

 

[autologous]

Armstrong explained at the team press conference in Arizona last week that relying on the UCI's biological passport program is sufficient now that it has become more robust.

LMAO

"It just takes one person to say - it could be a guy who graduated last in his class - you know what they call a guy who graduated last in his class at medical school? That's right, Doctor!

you know what they call a guy who responds to accusations by slandering the accuser instead of addressing the facts?

 

[goober]

LMAO



you know what they call a guy who responds to accusations by slandering the accuser instead of addressing the facts?

I don't see that as slander. His point is anyone who can say they are a doctor can take his results, misinterpret them, and the journalists will have a field day. Exactly why we are having these discussions over the values he had released...

 

[Kennf1]

I don't see that as slander. His point is anyone who can say they are a doctor can take his results, misinterpret them, and the journalists will have a field day. Exactly why we are having these discussions over the values he had released...

His point was, we didn't realize people might actually criticize us, so forget the transparency that was promised in January 2009.

People can also misinterpret the data and conclude that the blood values from the 09 Tour can be explained by periodic dehydration, weather, and food. But such a statement would probably not result in removing the data from the public eye.