Men Elite Road Race - UCI RWC Doha 2016

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

@Red Rick

"Make something happen". Bit easy, huh? Heard Terpstra's interview? It was impossible to ride away as a marked man here, that's why he gave up after going twice and told Leezer to go. You seriously think Greg or Boonen or Roelandts could have ridden away?

By whom was Terpstra marked? Exactly, by a Belgium. And who set the high pace when Terpstra wanted to get away? Exactly, a Belgium.
Italy, Slovakia, Norway, Britain and Australia all only had one guy who would have worked on the last lap. I think thats as many riders as Belgium had in the group. Moreover guys like the French rider or the Dutch also had no interest in a sprint so if Belgians would have attacked they would have helped.

Yes, and Terpstra and Greg were then immediately marked by pretty much everyone. Five countries with one guy is still 5 doms (Italy and Norway also had a 2nd guy in reserve actually) who wanted a sprint no matter what. And if you're straight in the wheel, like Hayman did very well, it doesn't cost much energy. Like I said, good luck riding some very strong riders, including a Paris-Roubaix winner, out of your wheel on the flat.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

@Red Rick

"Make something happen". Bit easy, huh? Heard Terpstra's interview? It was impossible to ride away as a marked man here, that's why he gave up after going twice and told Leezer to go. You seriously think Greg or Boonen or Roelandts could have ridden away?

By whom was Terpstra marked? Exactly, by a Belgium. And who set the high pace when Terpstra wanted to get away? Exactly, a Belgium.
Italy, Slovakia, Norway, Britain and Australia all only had one guy who would have worked on the last lap. I think thats as many riders as Belgium had in the group. Moreover guys like the French rider or the Dutch also had no interest in a sprint so if Belgians would have attacked they would have helped.

Yes, and Terpstra and Greg were then immediately marked by pretty much everyone. Five countries with one guy is still 5 doms (Italy and Norway also had a 2nd guy in reserve actually) who wanted a sprint no matter what. And if you're straight in the wheel, like Hayman did very well, it doesn't cost much energy. Like I said, good luck riding some very strong riders, including a Paris-Roubaix winner, out of your wheel on the flat.

5 riders are a lot but no way 5 riders are enough to keep a race together if attacks starts with, let's say 20 k to go.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Who ever said that Sagan can't sprint?

its not that he cannot sprint,its he cannot sprint after hard race

which btw is not true for quite some time now

His problem isn't that he can't sprint after a hard race, but that he can't sprint after a big effort and that is simply true. Watch Omloop, E3 or Quebec and you can hardly say thats not the case.

Are you serious - Omloop and E3 was after he split the peleton with an attack and he wasn't yet 100% fit - Strange you mention Quebec which he won but forgot Montreal - Sagan and Van Avremaat came one two in these events - Your post about Sagan's lack of sprint after a hard race has been debunked in 2016.

 

[Durden93]

Re: Re:

@Red Rick

"Make something happen". Bit easy, huh? Heard Terpstra's interview? It was impossible to ride away as a marked man here, that's why he gave up after going twice and told Leezer to go. You seriously think Greg or Boonen or Roelandts could have ridden away?

By whom was Terpstra marked? Exactly, by a Belgium. And who set the high pace when Terpstra wanted to get away? Exactly, a Belgium.
Italy, Slovakia, Norway, Britain and Australia all only had one guy who would have worked on the last lap. I think thats as many riders as Belgium had in the group. Moreover guys like the French rider or the Dutch also had no interest in a sprint so if Belgians would have attacked they would have helped.

Yes, and Terpstra and Greg were then immediately marked by pretty much everyone. Five countries with one guy is still 5 doms (Italy and Norway also had a 2nd guy in reserve actually) who wanted a sprint no matter what. And if you're straight in the wheel, like Hayman did very well, it doesn't cost much energy. Like I said, good luck riding some very strong riders, including a Paris-Roubaix winner, out of your wheel on the flat.

I think that Australia made a poor decision not to contribute. I think their chances with Hayman in a group featuring himself, GVA and Terpstra would be much greater than Matthews vs Belgium, Norway, Cav, and Sagan.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

@Red Rick

"Make something happen". Bit easy, huh? Heard Terpstra's interview? It was impossible to ride away as a marked man here, that's why he gave up after going twice and told Leezer to go. You seriously think Greg or Boonen or Roelandts could have ridden away?

By whom was Terpstra marked? Exactly, by a Belgium. And who set the high pace when Terpstra wanted to get away? Exactly, a Belgium.
Italy, Slovakia, Norway, Britain and Australia all only had one guy who would have worked on the last lap. I think thats as many riders as Belgium had in the group. Moreover guys like the French rider or the Dutch also had no interest in a sprint so if Belgians would have attacked they would have helped.

Yes, and Terpstra and Greg were then immediately marked by pretty much everyone. Five countries with one guy is still 5 doms (Italy and Norway also had a 2nd guy in reserve actually) who wanted a sprint no matter what. And if you're straight in the wheel, like Hayman did very well, it doesn't cost much energy. Like I said, good luck riding some very strong riders, including a Paris-Roubaix winner, out of your wheel on the flat.

5 riders are a lot but no way 5 riders are enough to keep a race together if attacks starts with, let's say 20 k to go.

Attacks by who?

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

@Red Rick

"Make something happen". Bit easy, huh? Heard Terpstra's interview? It was impossible to ride away as a marked man here, that's why he gave up after going twice and told Leezer to go. You seriously think Greg or Boonen or Roelandts could have ridden away?

By whom was Terpstra marked? Exactly, by a Belgium. And who set the high pace when Terpstra wanted to get away? Exactly, a Belgium.
Italy, Slovakia, Norway, Britain and Australia all only had one guy who would have worked on the last lap. I think thats as many riders as Belgium had in the group. Moreover guys like the French rider or the Dutch also had no interest in a sprint so if Belgians would have attacked they would have helped.

Yes, and Terpstra and Greg were then immediately marked by pretty much everyone. Five countries with one guy is still 5 doms (Italy and Norway also had a 2nd guy in reserve actually) who wanted a sprint no matter what. And if you're straight in the wheel, like Hayman did very well, it doesn't cost much energy. Like I said, good luck riding some very strong riders, including a Paris-Roubaix winner, out of your wheel on the flat.

I think that Australia made a poor decision not to contribute. I think their chances with Hayman in a group featuring himself, GVA and Terpstra would be much greater than Matthews vs Belgium, Norway, Cav, and Sagan.

When Hayman responded to Terpstra/Greg, they never had a gap though.

 

[Jancouver]

What a podium anyway!

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

What a podium anyway!

Not sure if WCRR or Most Fabulous Hair Competition with only 3 competitors

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Who ever said that Sagan can't sprint?

its not that he cannot sprint,its he cannot sprint after hard race

which btw is not true for quite some time now

His problem isn't that he can't sprint after a hard race, but that he can't sprint after a big effort and that is simply true. Watch Omloop, E3 or Quebec and you can hardly say thats not the case.

Are you serious - Omloop and E3 was after he split the peleton with an attack and he wasn't yet 100% fit - Strange you mention Quebec which he won but forgot Montreal - Sagan and Van Avremaat came one two in these events - Your post about Sagan's lack of sprint after a hard race has been debunked in 2016.

1.) I mixed up Quebec and Montreal, but I think you understand what I mean.

2.) I'm 100% serious. First of all it wasn't Sagan who split the peloton in Omloop and E3 (not sure about Montreal, I didn't watch the whole race), he only followed attacks. The thing is that after the peloton was split in all 3 races he had to do most of the work and then lost a sprint against an usually way worse sprinter. Then look at GW, where the situation was almost the exact same. Only difference was that sagan eased off on the last kilometers because he knew he can't win a sprint after pushing for one kilometer and what happened? He won.

 

[Stan955]

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Very big chance. I heard the route was designed to favor the Norwegians and since Sagan's skills are very equal to EBH's and Kristoff's he is probably the favorite again.

 

[Durden93]

Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Looking at the route, he's the very early favourite. That's assuming that Norwegian winter doesn't give Kristoff some sort of super power :lol: Looking at the route though, I have to wonder if Greipel could make it over the climb, it's only about 1500m in length, but it has steep pitches.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Ok, what does he do that's so bad? He's a showman, he's charismatic, and he's enthusiastic. There's nothing wrong with that. He's also humble. I think the majority of commentators agree that cycling needs a personality, it attracts fans and keeps things interesting. But if you don't want to attract new fans and just want to keep things the way they were that's fine, but what Sagan does/did is not a major problem for the sport.

We've been through this many times, you can dig out some more vitriolic posts from last year if you want.

Cliff's notes version though: I don't find him charismatic, I find him an attention-seeking man-child who never had to grow up because everybody gave him everything he wanted because he was talented so young, and people are happy to let him get away with whatever he wants and attack anyone who disagrees. I find him self-absorbed, narcissistic and like that kid at school who messes about in the classes he's not good at because he can't cope when people aren't looking at him. It makes sense that he loves races like California, because it's all about shouting loudest and being bright and brash, which is absolutely his thing. He's cycling's answer to Petter Northug or Cristiano Ronaldo to me. Nobody's going to argue they're not incredible talents, but they have their fair share of haters for the way they behave, and justifiably so.

As for attracting fans, the guy can do plenty to attract fans with the way he races, which in general I've never had a problem with. He is a phenomenal talent, and incredibly versatile. If you like him on the bike, and because of that put up with him off the bike, fine. I get that. People who will start following the sport because they like Sagan for his personality are not people I want to talk about the sport with, or in fact want to talk to period.

Is that elitist? You bet. No apologies for it.

Again though, like in my last post, we've been through this a dozen times already, if you disagree with me then fine, but you won't change my mind (I've had it explained to me patiently many a time) and I presumably won't change yours, and I'd already not wanted to get this far into it again, so please, if you want a fuller understanding of the reasons I don't like him, go back and read the discussions in the Bardet Combativité thread, the Tour of California 2015 thread, the Richmond thread and the Sagan discussion thread (where I was being roundly mocked and laughed at long before I even contributed to it) and we can leave this thread to the Doha discussion.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Very big chance. I heard the route was designed to favor the Norwegians and since Sagan's skills are very equal to EBH's and Kristoff's he is probably the favorite again.

He would be the first one to win three in a row I believe

Only six cyclists have successfully defended their title (three Belgians, two Italians and a Slovakian):
Georges Ronsse (Belgium, 1928–29);
Rik Van Steenbergen (Belgium, 1956–57);
Rik van Looy (Belgium, 1960–61);
Gianni Bugno (Italy, 1991–92);
Paolo Bettini (Italy, 2006–07),
Peter Sagan (Slovakia, 2015-16)

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Looking at the route, he's the very early favourite. That's assuming that Norwegian winter doesn't give Kristoff some sort of super power :lol: Looking at the route though, I have to wonder if Greipel could make it over the climb, it's only about 1500m in length, but it has steep pitches.

Do you have a link of next year's route?

 

[maltiv]

Re: Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Looking at the route, he's the very early favourite. That's assuming that Norwegian winter doesn't give Kristoff some sort of super power :lol: Looking at the route though, I have to wonder if Greipel could make it over the climb, it's only about 1500m in length, but it has steep pitches.

I'm pretty sure it's way too hard for Greipel. Riders like Sagan and GVA are the big favourites imo.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Looking at the route, he's the very early favourite. That's assuming that Norwegian winter doesn't give Kristoff some sort of super power :lol: Looking at the route though, I have to wonder if Greipel could make it over the climb, it's only about 1500m in length, but it has steep pitches.

Do you have a link of next year's route?

Depends on how far from the finish the last hill is. Greipel has no chance of hanging with Sagan on almost any hill. He'd have to hope of coming back because other's won't work cooperate, as often happens when Sagan is involved

And yeah, 1500m sounds way too long for Greipel if the gradient is any bit over say 5%.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Looking at the route, he's the very early favourite. That's assuming that Norwegian winter doesn't give Kristoff some sort of super power :lol: Looking at the route though, I have to wonder if Greipel could make it over the climb, it's only about 1500m in length, but it has steep pitches.

Do you have a link of next year's route?

https://bergen2017.no/courses/road-race/elite-men/

 

[Flamin]

Btw, nice sprint by the Norwegians the look from Kristoff to EBH after the finish was golden as well.

 

[Red Rick]

I think we all have a rough idea regarding LS view on Sagan. It's been discussed ad infinitum and if you don't like it, you shouldn't ask for it. Let's end it here

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Who ever said that Sagan can't sprint?

its not that he cannot sprint,its he cannot sprint after hard race

which btw is not true for quite some time now

His problem isn't that he can't sprint after a hard race, but that he can't sprint after a big effort and that is simply true. Watch Omloop, E3 or Quebec and you can hardly say thats not the case.

Are you serious - Omloop and E3 was after he split the peleton with an attack and he wasn't yet 100% fit - Strange you mention Quebec which he won but forgot Montreal - Sagan and Van Avremaat came one two in these events - Your post about Sagan's lack of sprint after a hard race has been debunked in 2016.

1.) I mixed up Quebec and Montreal, but I think you understand what I mean.

2.) I'm 100% serious. First of all it wasn't Sagan who split the peloton in Omloop and E3 (not sure about Montreal, I didn't watch the whole race), he only followed attacks. The thing is that after the peloton was split in all 3 races he had to do most of the work and then lost a sprint against an usually way worse sprinter. Then look at GW, where the situation was almost the exact same. Only difference was that sagan eased off on the last kilometers because he knew he can't win a sprint after pushing for one kilometer and what happened? He won.

Of course a rider tries to save energy for the final - This is something Sagan has improved immensely as a cyclist in 2016 which has lead to better results - The races that had a reduced sprint were Omloop and E3 which he lost and Gent Werelgem which he won -It's telling this was the the last of the three races so it could be argued he had better condition.

 

[Robert5091]

Congrats to Sagan, good win. Degenkolb will be henceforth known as "Squirty"

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Of course a rider tries to save energy for the final - This is something Sagan has improved immensely as a cyclist in 2016 which has lead to better results - The races that had a reduced sprint were Omloop and E3 which he lost and Gent Werelgem which he won -It's telling this was the the last of the three races so it could be argued he had better condition.

GW takes place two days after E3, I doubt his shape improve that much in this period.

 

[trucido]

Re: Re:

Of course a rider tries to save energy for the final - This is something Sagan has improved immensely as a cyclist in 2016 which has lead to better results - The races that had a reduced sprint were Omloop and E3 which he lost and Gent Werelgem which he won -It's telling this was the the last of the three races so it could be argued he had better condition.

GW takes place two days after E3, I doubt his shape improve that much in this period.

But 'handing' the win to Kwiat and him pulling for Sagan in the decisive RvV attack was worth it!

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

By the way , any chance that Sagan can make it 3 in a row next year??

Looking at the route, he's the very early favourite. That's assuming that Norwegian winter doesn't give Kristoff some sort of super power :lol: Looking at the route though, I have to wonder if Greipel could make it over the climb, it's only about 1500m in length, but it has steep pitches.

Do you have a link of next year's route?

https://bergen2017.no/courses/road-race/elite-men/

Thanks. It's definetly for sagan but i'm curious to see gilbert and GVA