Mixed Martial Arts

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Jon Jones next bout reportedly will be against Brock Lesnar. Apparently those two really don't like each other. They should bill it as "the Battle of the 'Roiders." It should be entertaining, if for no other reason than Lesnar's walking-around weight is 5 stone (34 kilos) the heavier. Jones historically fares less well against fighters he doesn't tower over, and he's only got half a centimeter on Lesnar. And Lesnar's biceps are bigger around than Jones' thighs. Even Mark Hunt was shocked how powerful Lesnar was.

Cyborg will kill the UFC's women's division. It's ridiculously obvious she's chemically-enhanced. De Randamie won't be the last woman fighter who will refuse to get into the cage with her. Bellator is already getting rich from the UFC's cast-offs and Cyborg will cause a refugee crisis for Scott Corker.
 
Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
Jon Jones next bout reportedly will be against Brock Lesnar. Apparently those two really don't like each other. They should bill it as "the Battle of the 'Roiders." It should be entertaining, if for no other reason than Lesnar's walking-around weight is 5 stone (34 kilos) the heavier. Jones historically fares less well against fighters he doesn't tower over, and he's only got half a centimeter on Lesnar. And Lesnar's biceps are bigger around than Jones' thighs. Even Mark Hunt was shocked how powerful Lesnar was.

Cyborg will kill the UFC's women's division. It's ridiculously obvious she's chemically-enhanced. De Randamie won't be the last woman fighter who will refuse to get into the cage with her. Bellator is already getting rich from the UFC's cast-offs and Cyborg will cause a refugee crisis for Scott Corker.
Jones kind of deflected questions about BL until after the fight when he called him out. What will BL weigh, 245-260? Can he get back through the USADA protocol by next spring? I wonder how big JJ will go, 225?

Even if CJ is clean now, there just aren't very many athletic woman her size so who is going to give her a real fight? I think that five years ago RR vs. CJ would have been a good fight. Like I said though, I would like to see CE take some time to be 145, and then get another shot.
 
I don't recall Lesnar ever weighing in an ounce under 265. Come Boxing Day, I'll wager he's within a biscuit of 300 lbs. IIRC he was 285 when he went to the try-outs for American professional football and still ran a 4.7 sec. 40-yard dash. He is one very large and very speedy side of boeuf.

Jones could binge on scones with clotted cream and wash it down with Tuborg from now until the fight and still not make 250. But I can't imagine he would bulk up much for fear it slowing him down.
 
Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
I don't recall Lesnar ever weighing in an ounce under 265. Come Boxing Day, I'll wager he's within a biscuit of 300 lbs. IIRC he was 285 when he went to the try-outs for American professional football and still ran a 4.7 sec. 40-yard dash. He is one very large and very speedy side of boeuf.

Jones could binge on scones with clotted cream and wash it down with Tuborg from now until the fight and still not make 250. But I can't imagine he would bulk up much for fear it slowing him down.
I'll save the Goog-search, but I think that BL was sub 250 in college. :) If he's 280 vs JJ at 230...whsu, JJ is good, but 50 lbs is a lot to give up, and that's assuming that JJ even gets to 230. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the USADA stuff goes...
 
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King Boonen said:
So MMA is going to start to be defined by freak show, novelty fights?
Japanese MMA and Kickboxing always got the highest ratings with freakshow fights and the James Toney vs Randy Couture fight already happened in 2010, so it's nothing new.
The fake trash talking, scriped drama and press conference brawls and the other pro wrestling bs is much worse, I can't stand that kind oof stuff.
 
In the early days MMA was often a freak show. Look at some of the first UFC's, then know many of the early rival organizations were less legit.

As to Lesnar, I can't see why he would want to leave WWE, unless he knew the + test would somehow vanish, UFC would pay him a heap to take on Jones, and he knew he could get fit enough to negate any speed Jones may have. I don't really watch the WWE, but what I have seen of Lesnar he looks kind of happy and fat of late. Maybe not really fat, but he's carrying extra weight, and seemed to enjoy himself at Wrestlemania "beating" Goldberg in a match that contained maybe the closest thing to actual physical wrestling going back to the days of Lou Thesz. Why would he want to leave that? Though there's also the chance WWE may want to write him out of his title, or down the cards though. Who knows what that contract is like.
 
Jone's 'B' sample was positive as well (surprise!). The result of the Cormier fight was changed to NC and Cormier was restored to UFC LHW champion. Scuttlebutt is Jones will contest the result on the basis that the blood taken at the same time as the urine that was positive, plus an additional urine sample taken later, all were negative. This was an old school AAS (think: Jan Ullrich and GDR cycling) with a detectable period of 60 days. I can't envision this defence getting any traction since it puts USADA in the position of having to defend the validity of negative results, and as we saw with the FLandis case, the testing process is fair unassailable. Plus, the apparent discrepancies might be the result of Jones' failure to strictly adhere to the adulterant/masking protocols.

On the one hand I find this a terrible sports tragedy (think: Mike Tyson meets Don King) because Jones obviously is a phenom and a very rare talent. He's a heavyweight above the waist, a budgie below the waist, has the wingspan of an Andean condor, has cardio for days, and he invents positively mental but crazy-effective techniques on the fly.

But on the other hand, it's pretty clear from the drama that swirls around his private life that he has a tendency to self-destruction.

I don't doubt that UFC is awash in PEDs but there's no one else in the sport right now who can match Jones' cornucopia of suspicious circumstances. His T/E ratio consistently is inhumanly low, <1:1, which Victor Conte remarked two years ago merited investigating to discover the cause of. There was the incident when multiple witnesses confirmed that Jones hid under the cage at his gym when the USADA men showed up unannounced. And when they pulled up a chair and waited all day for Jones' "return," Jones stayed in hiding, even peeing himself rather than give himself up. So he dodged charges of evading a test, which carries the same penalty as failing it.

Then there was the cocaine positive he skated on because WADA later claimed the control was irregular because they had no charter to test for recreational drugs (after which Jones self-admitted to a residential rehab program ...for one night). And there was marijuana residue on a pipe he left in the car he abandoned after the hit-and-run automobile accident when he ran a stoplight (an incident which saw him stripped of title and temporarily suspended by UFC).

Last year he tested positive for clomiphene and letrozole, both "post-cycle therapy" drugs, PEDs used to jump-start production of natural testosterone at the end of a steroid "cycle." He claimed the positive must have come from contaminated male virility pills, and USADA testing confirmed that the brand of pills he was taking, which were generic forms of the pharmaceutical Cialis, were in fact contaminated with clomiphene and letrozole. USADA reduced his punishment from two years to one on the basis that he was only cheating accidentally, but he still was responsible for everything he put into his body.

An incident which begs the question, how could he have been so certain those pills were the source, unless either, A. He already knew those pills were contaminated with the same drugs he was taking on PCT, or, B. He had hired a lab to test and confirm. And if B., why did he never offer that evidence to USADA, the UFC or the press? And at the risk of sounding the conspiracy anorak, can you not see the increased market potential from adding just enough of these "contaminants" to your product to trigger a positive test, yet in amounts still too minuscule to risk them being labeled "tainted" by the pharma authorities? It would be a veritable get-out-of-jail-free card for any doped athlete needing to cycle off the 'roids before a competition. You don't buy them to take them, you buy them to claim you took them if/when you get popped. I don't think anyone ever endeavoured to prove he had taken the pills, the punishment was mitigated based entirely on his claim that he had taken them.

And now this. How could he not take every possible precaution to assure coming up clean on this, his return fight coming off a one-year PEDs suspension? I think you have to conclude that Jones believes himself teflon-coated, that the rules are for other people, both outside the ring and in, e.g., the eye-poking, the questionable knee kicks, and not to forget he once was DQed for illegal elbows. He is known not to play well with others, and he runs with scissors. I hope they come down hard on him for this because I think from this point forward, the sport is better off without him.
 
StyrbjornSterki said:
Jone's 'B' sample was positive as well (surprise!). The result of the Cormier fight was changed to NC and Cormier was restored to UFC LHW champion. Scuttlebutt is Jones will contest the result on the basis that the blood taken at the same time as the urine that was positive, plus an additional urine sample taken later, all were negative. This was an old school AAS (think: Jan Ullrich and GDR cycling) with a detectable period of 60 days. I can't envision this defence getting any traction since it puts USADA in the position of having to defend the validity of negative results, and as we saw with the FLandis case, the testing process is fair unassailable. Plus, the apparent discrepancies might be the result of Jones' failure to strictly adhere to the adulterant/masking protocols.

On the one hand I find this a terrible sports tragedy (think: Mike Tyson meets Don King) because Jones obviously is a phenom and a very rare talent. He's a heavyweight above the waist, a budgie below the waist, has the wingspan of an Andean condor, has cardio for days, and he invents positively mental but crazy-effective techniques on the fly.

But on the other hand, it's pretty clear from the drama that swirls around his private life that he has a tendency to self-destruction.

I don't doubt that UFC is awash in PEDs but there's no one else in the sport right now who can match Jones' cornucopia of suspicious circumstances. His T/E ratio consistently is inhumanly low, <1:1, which Victor Conte remarked two years ago merited investigating to discover the cause of. There was the incident when multiple witnesses confirmed that Jones hid under the cage at his gym when the USADA men showed up unannounced. And when they pulled up a chair and waited all day for Jones' "return," Jones stayed in hiding, even peeing himself rather than give himself up. So he dodged charges of evading a test, which carries the same penalty as failing it.

Then there was the cocaine positive he skated on because WADA later claimed the control was irregular because they had no charter to test for recreational drugs (after which Jones self-admitted to a residential rehab program ...for one night). And there was marijuana residue on a pipe he left in the car he abandoned after the hit-and-run automobile accident when he ran a stoplight (an incident which saw him stripped of title and temporarily suspended by UFC).

Last year he tested positive for clomiphene and letrozole, both "post-cycle therapy" drugs, PEDs used to jump-start production of natural testosterone at the end of a steroid "cycle." He claimed the positive must have come from contaminated male virility pills, and USADA testing confirmed that the brand of pills he was taking, which were generic forms of the pharmaceutical Cialis, were in fact contaminated with clomiphene and letrozole. USADA reduced his punishment from two years to one on the basis that he was only cheating accidentally, but he still was responsible for everything he put into his body.

An incident which begs the question, how could he have been so certain those pills were the source, unless either, A. He already knew those pills were contaminated with the same drugs he was taking on PCT, or, B. He had hired a lab to test and confirm. And if B., why did he never offer that evidence to USADA, the UFC or the press? And at the risk of sounding the conspiracy anorak, can you not see the increased market potential from adding just enough of these "contaminants" to your product to trigger a positive test, yet in amounts still too minuscule to risk them being labeled "tainted" by the pharma authorities? It would be a veritable get-out-of-jail-free card for any doped athlete needing to cycle off the 'roids before a competition. You don't buy them to take them, you buy them to claim you took them if/when you get popped. I don't think anyone ever endeavoured to prove he had taken the pills, the punishment was mitigated based entirely on his claim that he had taken them.

And now this. How could he not take every possible precaution to assure coming up clean on this, his return fight coming off a one-year PEDs suspension? I think you have to conclude that Jones believes himself teflon-coated, that the rules are for other people, both outside the ring and in, e.g., the eye-poking, the questionable knee kicks, and not to forget he once was DQed for illegal elbows. He is known not to play well with others, and he runs with scissors. I hope they come down hard on him for this because I think from this point forward, the sport is better off without him.
I compare your praise of JJ to how people praised Vino's racing style. You can't praise either because they were the result of doping. JJ isn't a phenom without juice. But as you also stated, MMA is probably loaded with dope.
 
Boxing legend George Foreman (aged 68) challenged legend in his own mind Steven Seagal (aged 65) to a fight. “I challenge you One on one (sic), I use boxing you can use whatever. 10 rounds in Vegas.”

One report I read suggested Foreman's challenge might have been in response to negative remarks Seagal made about American football players not standing during the national anthem.
 
Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
Boxing legend George Foreman (aged 68) challenged legend in his own mind Steven Seagal (aged 65) to a fight. “I challenge you One on one (sic), I use boxing you can use whatever. 10 rounds in Vegas.”

One report I read suggested Foreman's challenge might have been in response to negative remarks Seagal made about American football players not standing during the national anthem.
I would actually pay to watch Steven Segal get his ass kicked by old George Forman...

I wouldn't pay very much but I'd go up as high as $20 for a ppv fight.
 
jmdirt said:
StyrbjornSterki said:
Jone's 'B' sample was positive as well (surprise!). The result of the Cormier fight was changed to NC and Cormier was restored to UFC LHW champion. Scuttlebutt is Jones will contest the result on the basis that the blood taken at the same time as the urine that was positive, plus an additional urine sample taken later, all were negative. This was an old school AAS (think: Jan Ullrich and GDR cycling) with a detectable period of 60 days. I can't envision this defence getting any traction since it puts USADA in the position of having to defend the validity of negative results, and as we saw with the FLandis case, the testing process is fair unassailable. Plus, the apparent discrepancies might be the result of Jones' failure to strictly adhere to the adulterant/masking protocols.

On the one hand I find this a terrible sports tragedy (think: Mike Tyson meets Don King) because Jones obviously is a phenom and a very rare talent. He's a heavyweight above the waist, a budgie below the waist, has the wingspan of an Andean condor, has cardio for days, and he invents positively mental but crazy-effective techniques on the fly.

But on the other hand, it's pretty clear from the drama that swirls around his private life that he has a tendency to self-destruction.

I don't doubt that UFC is awash in PEDs but there's no one else in the sport right now who can match Jones' cornucopia of suspicious circumstances. His T/E ratio consistently is inhumanly low, <1:1, which Victor Conte remarked two years ago merited investigating to discover the cause of. There was the incident when multiple witnesses confirmed that Jones hid under the cage at his gym when the USADA men showed up unannounced. And when they pulled up a chair and waited all day for Jones' "return," Jones stayed in hiding, even peeing himself rather than give himself up. So he dodged charges of evading a test, which carries the same penalty as failing it.

Then there was the cocaine positive he skated on because WADA later claimed the control was irregular because they had no charter to test for recreational drugs (after which Jones self-admitted to a residential rehab program ...for one night). And there was marijuana residue on a pipe he left in the car he abandoned after the hit-and-run automobile accident when he ran a stoplight (an incident which saw him stripped of title and temporarily suspended by UFC).

Last year he tested positive for clomiphene and letrozole, both "post-cycle therapy" drugs, PEDs used to jump-start production of natural testosterone at the end of a steroid "cycle." He claimed the positive must have come from contaminated male virility pills, and USADA testing confirmed that the brand of pills he was taking, which were generic forms of the pharmaceutical Cialis, were in fact contaminated with clomiphene and letrozole. USADA reduced his punishment from two years to one on the basis that he was only cheating accidentally, but he still was responsible for everything he put into his body.

An incident which begs the question, how could he have been so certain those pills were the source, unless either, A. He already knew those pills were contaminated with the same drugs he was taking on PCT, or, B. He had hired a lab to test and confirm. And if B., why did he never offer that evidence to USADA, the UFC or the press? And at the risk of sounding the conspiracy anorak, can you not see the increased market potential from adding just enough of these "contaminants" to your product to trigger a positive test, yet in amounts still too minuscule to risk them being labeled "tainted" by the pharma authorities? It would be a veritable get-out-of-jail-free card for any doped athlete needing to cycle off the 'roids before a competition. You don't buy them to take them, you buy them to claim you took them if/when you get popped. I don't think anyone ever endeavoured to prove he had taken the pills, the punishment was mitigated based entirely on his claim that he had taken them.

And now this. How could he not take every possible precaution to assure coming up clean on this, his return fight coming off a one-year PEDs suspension? I think you have to conclude that Jones believes himself teflon-coated, that the rules are for other people, both outside the ring and in, e.g., the eye-poking, the questionable knee kicks, and not to forget he once was DQed for illegal elbows. He is known not to play well with others, and he runs with scissors. I hope they come down hard on him for this because I think from this point forward, the sport is better off without him.
I compare your praise of JJ to how people praised Vino's racing style. You can't praise either because they were the result of doping. JJ isn't a phenom without juice. But as you also stated, MMA is probably loaded with dope.
It's been a roid-fest since it started. Listened to Joe Rogan and Bas Rutten shooting the breeze a while back and they mentioned drugs a few times in a way that you knew it was well known and basically accepted. They made particular reference to Bob Sapp...

We should keep this in the clinic though if we want to discuss it.
 
Re: Re:

This video from Japan should make you want to ban extreme weight cutting in MMA

I give MMA even less a chance of ever getting a handle on the weight-cutting than of pro cycling ever getting ahead of the PEDs problem.


Irondan said:
I would actually pay to watch Steven Segal get his *** kicked by old George Forman...

I wouldn't pay very much but I'd go up as high as $20 for a ppv fight.
I'd go 25 if they'd add Eric Roberts and Ralph Macchio and make it a 4-man cage fight free-for-all.
 
Here's a short video of some of the action from this past weekend's UFC PPV. FF to the 1 minute mark to watch Mighty Mouse Johnson's amazing finish of Ray Borg. He suplexes Borg and while Borg is in free-fall, and focused on bracing for the impact with the mat, Demetrious is focused on getting control of his left arm. And the finish is pure Ronda Rousey (wonder if she's been coaching him?). Not only did he set the record for the most successful consecutive title defences, he did it by premiering a heretofore unused finishing move. Which certainly doesn't bode well for anyone who covets his belt.

But I feel for Johnson. His fights are only good for about 200,000 PPVs, and there's probably 20 non-title contenders on Dana White's payroll who routinely draw more than that. Despite the potential for a record-setting performance, the gate for this weekend's card was the lowest for any UFC PPV ever held in that venue (I don't yet find any preliminary PPV estimates). At this point in UFC history, Mighty Mouse has a legitimate claim to GOAT, bit nobody cares. He made half a mil U$D for the win but the financial reward is proving less and less effective at preventing him voicing his exasperation over the lack of interest in the flyweight division. He reminds me of Russell Crow's character in the film "Gladiator," shouting to the crowd, "Are you not entertained?"
 
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Yeah, he also got really screwed by the Reebook deal, he had an exclusive (if I remember correctly) sponsorship deal with Xbox, pobably a bit deal and he lost out on it because of the exclusive Reebook deal.
 
Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
Here's a short video of some of the action from this past weekend's UFC PPV. FF to the 1 minute mark to watch Mighty Mouse Johnson's amazing finish of Ray Borg. He suplexes Borg and while Borg is in free-fall, and focused on bracing for the impact with the mat, Demetrious is focused on getting control of his left arm. And the finish is pure Ronda Rousey (wonder if she's been coaching him?). Not only did he set the record for the most successful consecutive title defences, he did it by premiering a heretofore unused finishing move. Which certainly doesn't bode well for anyone who covets his belt.

But I feel for Johnson. His fights are only good for about 200,000 PPVs, and there's probably 20 non-title contenders on Dana White's payroll who routinely draw more than that. Despite the potential for a record-setting performance, the gate for this weekend's card was the lowest for any UFC PPV ever held in that venue (I don't yet find any preliminary PPV estimates). At this point in UFC history, Mighty Mouse has a legitimate claim to GOAT, bit nobody cares. He made half a mil U$D for the win but the financial reward is proving less and less effective at preventing him voicing his exasperation over the lack of interest in the flyweight division. He reminds me of Russell Crow's character in the film "Gladiator," shouting to the crowd, "Are you not entertained?"
He is really entertaining to watch. I don't know why people aren't interested in the lighter weights since they are often better fights IMO.

You nailed the end, as soon as he threw him, he was securing the arm.

I want to see CMc cut down and fight him! :eek:
 
I erred when I earlier wrote that Johnson received $500,000 for the fight. It was only $370,000, as per mmapayouts.com.

23lig0j.png


I think this explains a lot of it. I suppose some people go to auto races just to see the crashes. Some people go to fights just to see the knock-outs. Even bantamweight women score more knockouts than flyweight men (I ignored the featherweight and flyweight women on account of their number of total fights is statistically insignificant)..


Mods, I know I'm pressing my luck with this bit, but I thought it a grey area since I'm discussing a topic only tangentially related to PEDs, and probably is of negligible interest to anyone who doesn't frequent this thread.

This week the MMA blog-o-sphere went on the boil after Jeff Novitzky, who now is UFC's VP of Athlete's Health and Performance (I must've been asleep that day), made remarks which some bloggers interpreted as being a warning shot that Jon Jones might get off scot-free. Novitzky has clarified his remarks, stating, "...[P]ossible sanctions based on the findings of a completed case ranged from a multi-year suspension, to a minimal, or no-fault sanction, if an unavoidable ingestion of the prohibited substance was determined.”
 
Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
I erred when I earlier wrote that Johnson received $500,000 for the fight. It was only $370,000, as per mmapayouts.com.

23lig0j.png


I think this explains a lot of it. I suppose some people go to auto races just to see the crashes. Some people go to fights just to see the knock-outs. Even bantamweight women score more knockouts than flyweight men (I ignored the featherweight and flyweight women on account of their number of total fights is statistically insignificant)..


Mods, I know I'm pressing my luck with this bit, but I thought it a grey area since I'm discussing a topic only tangentially related to PEDs, and probably is of negligible interest to anyone who doesn't frequent this thread.

This week the MMA blog-o-sphere went on the boil after Jeff Novitzky, who now is UFC's VP of Athlete's Health and Performance (I must've been asleep that day), made remarks which some bloggers interpreted as being a warning shot that Jon Jones might get off scot-free. Novitzky has clarified his remarks, stating, "...[P]ossible sanctions based on the findings of a completed case ranged from a multi-year suspension, to a minimal, or no-fault sanction, if an unavoidable ingestion of the prohibited substance was determined.”
HMM, why do I know that guy's name? :rolleyes: :eek:
 
Re:

StyrbjornSterki said:
I erred when I earlier wrote that Johnson received $500,000 for the fight. It was only $370,000, as per mmapayouts.com.

23lig0j.png


I think this explains a lot of it. I suppose some people go to auto races just to see the crashes. Some people go to fights just to see the knock-outs. Even bantamweight women score more knockouts than flyweight men (I ignored the featherweight and flyweight women on account of their number of total fights is statistically insignificant)..


Mods, I know I'm pressing my luck with this bit, but I thought it a grey area since I'm discussing a topic only tangentially related to PEDs, and probably is of negligible interest to anyone who doesn't frequent this thread.

This week the MMA blog-o-sphere went on the boil after Jeff Novitzky, who now is UFC's VP of Athlete's Health and Performance (I must've been asleep that day), made remarks which some bloggers interpreted as being a warning shot that Jon Jones might get off scot-free. Novitzky has clarified his remarks, stating, "...[P]ossible sanctions based on the findings of a completed case ranged from a multi-year suspension, to a minimal, or no-fault sanction, if an unavoidable ingestion of the prohibited substance was determined.”

As long as any discussion remains factual and it doesn't move into speculation I don't see it being a problem.
 
Re: Re:

mmapayouts.com is speculating UFC 216 sold 120,000 PPVs. Av! That is truly pathetic. There already were rumours that DW might scupper the flyweight division. His accountants can't be happy that Mighty Mouse took home $3 per each PPV.

King Boonen said:
As long as any discussion remains factual and it doesn't move into speculation I don't see it being a problem.
Cheers! I saw it as more a statement on rules clarification rather than directly PEDs related. There undoubtedly are many twists ant turns yet to come in the Jon Jones drama, so I shall endeavour to limit comments of fact.
 
From MMA Weekly:

UFC president Dana White and Jones have had a rocky history. White once said that Jones would never headline another UFC event. Looking back on Jones’ career, White is disappointed by what could have been.

“Yeah, yeah, I’m mad at Jon Jones. We haven’t talked at all. (I’m) very (disappointed in him),” said White during an appearance on the Pardon My Take podcast. “I think he is the greatest of all time. If he had done everything the way he should have, he’d be a huge superstar. He might even be the heavyweight champion of the world.”

Jones faces a lengthy suspension for his most recent anti-doping violation and White was uncertain about Jones’ fighting future. When asked if he felt Jones would ever fight again, White was non-committal, but sounded dour.

“I think that he’s got to go through USADA and the California State Athletic Commission, but I think he’s gonna be in big trouble.”


His final six words tell the tale. DW has a pretty good record for forecasting calamity.