Motor doping thread

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Lemond isn't a primary source. He's just repeating what we all already have heard. So is 60 minutes. We certainly have a couple of people saying they've been used in WT races but most of what you're citing here is the same source.

Not entirely true. Some of the info is complementary. For example Lemond spoke about F1 engineers working on motor isolation. CBS did not. CBS in turn mentioned the UCI blocking an investigation into Sky's wheels. Lemond did not.

Beyond that there is rampant speculation as to who and when which relies on fairly thin evidence.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. If rampant speculation happens in the press, i'd probably agree it should not, because it could damage innocent riders. But in here, why not? The UCI and the voiceless riders are basically begging us.

We know it's probably happening, we have little reason to believe it's not.

agree.

Who and when? Not so much.

We can make pretty good educated guesses though. For instance Lance and a few others sticking to downtube shifters up to 2005/6, Lance making handmovements under his saddle, Varjas fitting the old motor in a 1999 Trek bike, Lance working with Smart in 2004, Lance's TT bike stolen and returned without wheels, etc.
All posted upthread. It's not proof but taken together it makes for a tadbit more than just baseless speculation. I wouldn't call it 'thin evidence'. For Cancellara 2010 the same. If you've followed the story, Durand's analyses, the bike swaps, the type of accelleration, the mechanics he's worked with, etc, then you couldn't possibly conclude that the evidence is 'thin'. But sure, in many other cases the evidence is thinner. It's still good to speculate though, because you never know what others might bring to the table.

Will be nice at some point to get some hard evidence.

agree, and i'm confident it will come.
When? That's going to be a matter of historical coincidence, as it was with Lance.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Not forgetting Brailsford claiming during last years tour that he had received an email from the UCI thanking them for being the most cooperative team in the peloton when it came to testing for motors.

Tienus had a nice post about this in the Froome thread:
viewtopic.php?p=1977106#p1977106

Some more detail on the Blem episode Tienus refers to:
viewtopic.php?p=1977162#p1977162

 

[Sorped]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

This is hilarious, take a look st the UCI bike motor checker in the linked video. Waves his iPad around for a second or two, then walks off. The UCI look really intent on catching motor doping! :lol:

https://twitter.com/dcrainmakerblog/status/882998512367026176

I reckon someone has convinced them that even when the motors are off they will electromagnetically distort the screen on the 'pad...

 

[sniper]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

This is hilarious, take a look st the UCI bike motor checker in the linked video. Waves his iPad around for a second or two, then walks off. The UCI look really intent on catching motor doping! :lol:

https://twitter.com/dcrainmakerblog/status/882998512367026176

I reckon someone has convinced them that even when the motors are off they will electromagnetically distort the screen on the 'pad...

em, not really. I think they have (tried to) convince(d) others that that's the case.
the british press for instance, who've just lapped it all up, hook line and sinker.

 

[Benotti69]

I would guess lots in the sport dont like the motor use just as lots did not the introduction of EPO, Fignon being one, but they have to do as others in order to keep up or ahead.

LeMond spent last July in France and I guess off the record he heard from various people in the sport who could not be quoted on even suggested that there were motors in use is some guise.

This biggest source that motors are in use is the UCI's charade of checking for motors. That screams they are in use.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

...
Lemond isn't a primary source. He's just repeating what we all already have heard. So is 60 minutes. We certainly have a couple of people saying they've been used in WT races but most of what you're citing here is the same source.

Not entirely true. Some of the info is complementary. For example Lemond spoke about F1 engineers working on motor isolation. CBS did not. CBS in turn mentioned the UCI blocking an investigation into Sky's wheels. Lemond did not.

OK, some. Not a lot. Pretty minor quibbles with my point, but fine.

Beyond that there is rampant speculation as to who and when which relies on fairly thin evidence.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. If rampant speculation happens in the press, i'd probably agree it should not, because it could damage innocent riders. But in here, why not? The UCI and the voiceless riders are basically begging us.

Good, I meant it as a bad thing. The reams of wild speculation you offer devalue the cogent points you have.

We can make pretty good educated guesses though. For instance Lance and a few others sticking to downtube shifters up to 2005/6, Lance making handmovements under his saddle, Varjas fitting the old motor in a 1999 Trek bike, Lance working with Smart in 2004, Lance's TT bike stolen and returned without wheels, etc.

Yeah, Lance and downtube shifters is wild speculation in my view. The thinnest of evidence which is backed up by nothing and contra-indicated by people who were there and have told the truth like Tyler. I think you had Riis using a motor in '95 on some thread? Hey anything is possible. Doesn't make it worth speculating on. Until there's more, just seems a bit ridiculous. Seems like seeing phantoms. But I could be wrong.

All posted upthread. It's not proof but taken together it makes for a tadbit more than just baseless speculation. I wouldn't call it 'thin evidence'. For Cancellara 2010 the same. If you've followed the story, Durand's analyses, the bike swaps, the type of accelleration, the mechanics he's worked with, etc, then you couldn't possibly conclude that the evidence is 'thin'. But sure, in many other cases the evidence is thinner. It's still good to speculate though, because you never know what others might bring to the table.

It's as close to baseless speculation as could be. It's not even on the same planet as proof.

On Cancellara there is obviously a lot there and worth a deep and detailed discussion. Fundamentally different level of evidence. Treating them similarly equals total loss of credibility. IMO. *shrug*. Obviously nothing I say will change the approach here, it's time-honored.

 

[Random Direction]

I'm going to speculate that if the UCI were to announce at km 154 of Sundays stage that it had a new testing mechanism for 4 different types of electronic motor set ups that all sorts of the top riders would all of a sudden suffer mechanicals going down Mont de Chats, that a few would run off the road and a random second tier rider would win the stage and the top 10 be those running 20 to 30 up the mountain. More fun would be to name each motor tech to be tested every 2 km up the mountain and watch the hilarity to ensue.

If one has Moto tech, the others do too. Like F1 or Nascar, or Volkswagen for that matter, there needs to be harsh penaltiesfor technological fraud. Won't happen with uncle brian in charge though.

can the gazetta please uncover the wireless channel for sky or Astana?

 

[veganrob]

The peloton would be backed up for miles with all the bike changes taking place before then. All the swapped bikes would just magically disappear.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...The thinnest of evidence which is backed up by nothing and contra-indicated by people who were there and have told the truth like Tyler.

Talking about baseless speculation. Were you there holding his hand?

Agreed to disagree on the rest.

 

[sniper]

This documentary is great to watch, from 2005. Introducing Lance's "F1 tech team".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43DcMBL4w8

It's an impressive display of attention to technological detail.

Just watch that.

And then ask yourself why he stuck to downtube shifters until 2005.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

This documentary is great to watch, from 2005. Introducing Lance's "F1 tech team".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43DcMBL4w8

It's an impressive display of attention to technological detail.

Just watch that.

And then ask yourself why he stuck to downtube shifters until 2005.

Besides being lighter, downtube shifters perform way better when under load. You can ease the chain onto the small ring rather than just dumping it. Easier to adjust if you get rubbing too. It actually makes some sense for a hilly stage. Of course, shifters have gotten much better and do the job but I can see why someone would have used them in that era.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

This documentary is great to watch, from 2005. Introducing Lance's "F1 tech team".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43DcMBL4w8

It's an impressive display of attention to technological detail.

Just watch that.

And then ask yourself why he stuck to downtube shifters until 2005.

Besides being lighter, downtube shifters perform way better when under load. You can ease the chain onto the small ring rather than just dumping it. Easier to adjust if you get rubbing too. It actually makes some sense for a hilly stage. Of course, shifters have gotten much better and do the job but I can see why someone would have used them in that era.

John Swanson

Good info.
I'm far from a specialist and would be happy to hear some second (or in this case third) opinions about this.
Here's a link listing some of the disadvantages of downtube shifters:
http://www.velominati.com/tradition/the-golden-era-downtube-shifters-and-delta-brakes/
Reading that, although it's from 2009, it sounded to me like the disadvantages would have outweighed the advantages already in the early 2000s, but I'm happy to be corrected.

As for them being lighter. Let's say 50-odd grams lighter? That's extreme weight saving.
With the minimum bike weight rule in place (I think from 2000 or 2001 onwards?), would he (/his bike) have had scope to loose another 50-odd grams? It's an honest question.
In any case, if he rode with a motor, the answer is a definite yes.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

...The thinnest of evidence which is backed up by nothing and contra-indicated by people who were there and have told the truth like Tyler.

Talking about baseless speculation. Were you there holding his hand?

Agreed to disagree on the rest.

I guess you missed the part where like 6 other people who were there supported everything he said. But yeah, he and I hold hands all the time. We also have the same haircut.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Hamilton may have told the truth, but I strongly doubt he has told the entire truth.

...
Johnny Logtved has been working for Riis since 1999. He was still there in 2011 when Cyrille Guimard raised doubts about Contador.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8703/Guimard-claims-Contador-could-have-used-mechanical-doping-in-Giro-dItalia.aspx

here's what Tyler has to say about Logtved.
http://www.velonews.com/2002/06/news/road/tyler-tunes-not-a-solitary-effort_2326

Johnny Logtved – High energy funny man and Bjarne’s travel companionin car #1. Thanks for the quick changes and for coping with all my special requests.

that's most interesting.

A Danish journo stepped up to the same Logtved in 2011, right when the Cassani//Cancellara video was doing the rounds, to ask him if there's anything to the rumors. Logtved in full omerta mode:

- No, forget it. This is a Christmas fairy tale, Johnny Løgtved laughs at the other end of the phone, as Extrabladet.dk asks him about hidden motors in racing bikes.

Johnny Løgtved has worked as a mechanic in the professional cycling world since 1999, among others, at Bjarne Riis. And he's just laughing at the accusations that Fabian Cancellara from Team Saxo Bank is experiencing right now.

Well, what could that engine be? Then the engine should sit in the frame with a little pull down to the crank and then ... No, forget it, says Johnny Løgtved, ending:

"I have talked to old colleagues about it and we agree. This is completely ridiculous.

http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article4162207.ece#fnLFComments

Completely ridiculous, says Logtved, when Cassani has just shown the world how easy it is.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Hamilton may have told the truth, but I strongly doubt he has told the entire truth.

...
Johnny Logtved has been working for Riis since 1999. He was still there in 2011 when Cyrille Guimard raised doubts about Contador.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8703/Guimard-claims-Contador-could-have-used-mechanical-doping-in-Giro-dItalia.aspx

here's what Tyler has to say about Logtved.
http://www.velonews.com/2002/06/news/road/tyler-tunes-not-a-solitary-effort_2326

Johnny Logtved – High energy funny man and Bjarne’s travel companionin car #1. Thanks for the quick changes and for coping with all my special requests.

that's most interesting.

A Danish journo stepped up to the same Logtved in 2011, right when the Cassani//Cancellara video was doing the rounds, to ask him if there's anything to the rumors. Logtved in full omerta mode:

- No, forget it. This is a Christmas fairy tale, Johnny Løgtved laughs at the other end of the phone, as Extrabladet.dk asks him about hidden motors in racing bikes.

Johnny Løgtved has worked as a mechanic in the professional cycling world since 1999, among others, at Bjarne Riis. And he's just laughing at the accusations that Fabian Cancellara from Team Saxo Bank is experiencing right now.

Well, what could that engine be? Then the engine should sit in the frame with a little pull down to the crank and then ... No, forget it, says Johnny Løgtved, ending:

"I have talked to old colleagues about it and we agree. This is completely ridiculous.

http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article4162207.ece#fnLFComments

Completely ridiculous, says Logtved, when Cassani has just shown the world how easy it is.

I cannot begin to follow how what you posted supports the claim that Hamilton didn't tell the whole truth. Which he may have not, but nothing here suggests it. Bizarre.

 

[sniper]

I guess I still don't quite understand what you meant when you said (without specifying) that Tyler had 'spoken the truth' and then suggested that that (or something he'd said) contradicts one or more of the points I made about Lance. I can't do much with an umbrella statement like that. Maybe you can specify?

To be sure, what I just posted in reply to Tienus has nothing to do with demonstrating that Tyler may not have told the entire truth. I don't think that needs demonstration. It's obvious that we can't know what pieces of truth he decided to keep from the public.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

This documentary is great to watch, from 2005. Introducing Lance's "F1 tech team".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N43DcMBL4w8

It's an impressive display of attention to technological detail.

Just watch that.

And then ask yourself why he stuck to downtube shifters until 2005.

Besides being lighter, downtube shifters perform way better when under load. You can ease the chain onto the small ring rather than just dumping it. Easier to adjust if you get rubbing too. It actually makes some sense for a hilly stage. Of course, shifters have gotten much better and do the job but I can see why someone would have used them in that era.

John Swanson

Good info.
I'm far from a specialist and would be happy to hear some second (or in this case third) opinions about this.
Here's a link listing some of the disadvantages of downtube shifters:
http://www.velominati.com/tradition/the-golden-era-downtube-shifters-and-delta-brakes/
Reading that, although it's from 2009, it sounded to me like the disadvantages would have outweighed the advantages already in the early 2000s, but I'm happy to be corrected.

As for them being lighter. Let's say 50-odd grams lighter? That's extreme weight saving.
With the minimum bike weight rule in place (I think from 2000 or 2001 onwards?), would he (/his bike) have had scope to loose another 50-odd grams? It's an honest question.
In any case, if he rode with a motor, the answer is a definite yes.

Spoke to a former semi-pro last night and he's calling BS on the downtube shifters.
Couldn't believe that in the early to mid-2000s any competitive cyclist, let alone guys like Lance, Beloki, Ulrich, and Kaschechkin would still be using them, when the advantages were so clearly outweighed by the disadvantages.
And as noted earlier, since it was fairly easy to produce bikes at minimum weight, the weightsaving argument doesn't cut it (...unless of course...)

Would still be happy to stand corrected. Would be good to hear second opinions from guys who raced competitively in that period.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

I guess I still don't quite understand what you meant when you said (without specifying) that Tyler had 'spoken the truth' and then suggested that that (or something he'd said) contradicts one or more of the points I made about Lance. I can't do much with an umbrella statement like that. Maybe you can specify?

To be sure, what I just posted in reply to Tienus has nothing to do with demonstrating that Tyler may not have told the entire truth. I don't think that needs demonstration. It's obvious that we can't know what pieces of truth he decided to keep from the public.

The problem, to my view, is that you regard this possibility as some kind of supporting evidence for motor-doping. It makes no sense whatsoever. Try to distinguish between what's possible and what's actually evidence of something. Rumor, things possibly unsaid, opportunity–these are not evidence of anything.

 

[sniper]

Not at all, I just don't see him not talking about motors as counterevidence, or as a "contra-indication" as you called it, for reasons I've explained amply upthread. If you do, fair enough, we can agree to disagree.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Would still be happy to stand corrected. Would be good to hear second opinions from guys who raced competitively in that period.

I'm a bit of a weirdo, but I spent 2002-2003 racing on Dura Ace downtube shifters. It's madness because shifting while standing and being able to keep your hand on the hoods is a fantastic feature. BUT - the shifting will never be as good as a downtube shifter. Less cable and gentle routing angles plus manual control over shifting speed means perfect shifting every time. Did riding downtube shifters hurt my performance? Nah. I'm a loser and never won anything anyways.

John Swanson

 

[fmk_RoI]

A website claiming to offer fully hidden motors explicitly designed to assist competitive cyclists has told CyclingIndustry.News of interest from team managers, retailers and trade publications vying for advertising cash.

linkylinklink

 

[Irondan]

Re:

A website claiming to offer fully hidden motors explicitly designed to assist competitive cyclists has told CyclingIndustry.News of interest from team managers, retailers and trade publications vying for advertising cash.

linkylinklink

How long before that "fake" drive system becomes real, if it's not already?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

A website claiming to offer fully hidden motors explicitly designed to assist competitive cyclists has told CyclingIndustry.News of interest from team managers, retailers and trade publications vying for advertising cash.

linkylinklink

How long before that "fake" drive system becomes real, if it's not already?

Are you kidding? Imagine it's 2002 and anyone with $10,000 and some skill could make EPO in their garage. Motors are available in ways that drugs aren't. You don't need the medical/pharmaceutical community involved at all. There's no trade restrictions or regulations or documentation or anything! The whole thing is insane. No need to put a motor or battery in a jiffy bag...

John Swanson

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

A website claiming to offer fully hidden motors explicitly designed to assist competitive cyclists has told CyclingIndustry.News of interest from team managers, retailers and trade publications vying for advertising cash.

linkylinklink

How long before that "fake" drive system becomes real, if it's not already?

Are you kidding? Imagine it's 2002 and anyone with $10,000 and some skill could make EPO in their garage. Motors are available in ways that drugs aren't. You don't need the medical/pharmaceutical community involved at all. There's no trade restrictions or regulations or documentation or anything! The whole thing is insane. No need to put a motor or battery in a jiffy bag...

John Swanson

The battery tech is where the business is at! The money to be made by small and strong batteries is really booming. Remember not long ago that the LI batteries Boeing were installing in the 777 was amazing and that technology has come a very long way.

 

[sniper]

Cannondale again.
Not sure which rider it is.

Rear wheel not very suspicious this time, imo.
But look at the front wheel. Difficult to get in focus, but it seems to be accelerating slightly after the crash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L74PA-rkcjE

JV, dedicated his life to antidoping. I'm starting to understand how that should be read.