Motor doping thread

[ScienceIsCool]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the "F1" thing. It's used all the time as a badge of honor to confer some kind of legitimacy. It's kind of like NASA that way. Just because someone worked there (and thousand do), it's not like they're some kind of wizard with magical powers. But it looks great in the press and when looking for financing!

John Swanson

 

[AICA ribonucleotide]

Re:

Who is Tony Purnell?

Tony Purnell (born 23 May 1958 in Carshalton, Surrey) is an English businessman, and former principal of the Jaguar and Red Bull Formula One teams.
...
In May 2013 Purnell joined British Cycling as head of its much-vaunted "Secret Squirrel Club" responsible for technical development, succeeding Chris Boardman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Purnell

now go here please: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl_xsrwVAAIfdNw.jpg

btw, I love this from Boardman in response to the French rumor (rumor? Yes, rumor) that BC are using "magic wheels":

Boardman responded by insisting Britain's equipment had been approved by the sport's governing body, the International Cycling Union.[/b]
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/22525004

Hatts off if you can read that without dropping your jaw.
So instead of saying "well, why don't you come over and have a look, tear those wheels apart and see if you find anything", he says "well, the former BC president approved of these BC wheels, so move on please".

Who is Tony Purnell?

Well from your own link

"...won the Kennedy Scholarship at the MIT Sloan School of Management where he completed his master's degree. His dissertation was on the subject of Formula One aerodynamics."

"After MIT, Purnell returned to the United Kingdom as a researcher at Cambridge University. Here he began work on wind tunnel analysis software for the Lola organisation and consulted for the short-lived FORCE F1 team."

"In 1999 this company was purchased by the Ford Motor Company making Purnell a multi-millionaire."


No multi millionaire is going to put his life on the line making motors for a cycling team. The guys expertise was aerodynamics and wind tunnel software. He moved into F1 after selling his company almost like a hobby. Now it looks like he got into cycling like every other middle class middle aged english man.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Thermal cameras spotted. Our ES commentators (one of them is an ex pro) are laughing at the motor rumours. They think all the testing is nothing but a waste of resources and that racers would surely know if some of their competitors used motors and no way it could keep hidden.

Yeah yeah I know they all are part of a massive conspiracy...

 

[sniper]

Purnell making motors for a cycling team? Lol, I guess.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I wouldn't get too hung up on the "F1" thing. It's used all the time as a badge of honor to confer some kind of legitimacy. It's kind of like NASA that way. Just because someone worked there (and thousand do), it's not like they're some kind of wizard with magical powers. But it looks great in the press and when looking for financing!

John Swanson

By all means a fair point.

But to see such a wide range of top teams and top-pro's collaborating with the same F1 guy (Simon Smart) is eerie, to say the least.
It reminds of the old Ferrari/Fuentes monopoly and it typically means the person in question has something rather valuable to sell.

F1 tech could help with:
- reducing size of batteries and motors;
- increasing capacity of batteries and motors;
- heat shielding/isolation so as to avoid detection by thermal cams;
- noise reduction;
I assume those three are the main areas, but I can imagine there's a shipload of additional (more trivial?) features related to motor doping that we are yet unaware of where F1 tech can be of service.

Having said that, the F1 links are of course just one piece of evidence pointing towards motor use in the propeloton. In isolation it wouldn't mean much.
For instance, I'm rather suspicious of someone like Gerard Vroomen, founder of Cervelo, even though I'm not aware that he has any links to F1.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

It's interesting you believe in AICAR, but not in motors.
We've had exactly zero AICAR positives, but at least one motor positive in addition to some unproven but nonetheless very plausible cases for motor use.
Also, for motors there are plenty of rumors from within the peloton and from people close to the peloton (all laid out in the thread). For AICAR rumors are to my knowledge limited to a handful of people all well outside the peloton, admittedly with the exception of Eric Boyer.
Don't get me wrong, I think AICAR is very real and has been used by various pro's.
I just wonder why you don't believe in motors even though the body evidence for motors is stronger than for AICAR.

Completely different sniper: You have Colombian doping doctor Beltrán Niño arrested with AICAR and TB-500 doping products a few years back:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11406/Colombian-doctor-Beltran-Nino-arrested-with-AICAR-and-TB-500-doping-products.aspx

And I believe empty AICAR packaging was found in the trash bins of Astana's team hotels during the 09 Tour (Armstrong involved in doping in his comeback?...who would have thought, Lol).

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Right, so still no positive test for AICAR?
Must be a myth.

Also, how or why, in your view, would/could somebody get arrested for riding around with an e-bike?
I think you get my drift.

 

[MarkvW]

Re:

Thermal cameras spotted. Our ES commentators (one of them is an ex pro) are laughing at the motor rumours. They think all the testing is nothing but a waste of resources and that racers would surely know if some of their competitors used motors and no way it could keep hidden.

Yeah yeah I know they all are part of a massive conspiracy...

Sooner or later somebody will be caught, though.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I wouldn't get too hung up on the "F1" thing. It's used all the time as a badge of honor to confer some kind of legitimacy. It's kind of like NASA that way. Just because someone worked there (and thousand do), it's not like they're some kind of wizard with magical powers. But it looks great in the press and when looking for financing!

John Swanson

By all means a fair point.

But to see such a wide range of top teams and top-pro's collaborating with the same F1 guy (Simon Smart) is eerie, to say the least.
It reminds of the old Ferrari/Fuentes monopoly and it typically means the person in question has something rather valuable to sell.

F1 tech could help with:
- reducing size of batteries and motors;
- increasing capacity of batteries and motors;
- heat shielding/isolation so as to avoid detection by thermal cams;
- noise reduction;
I assume those three are the main areas, but I can imagine there's a shipload of additional (more trivial?) features related to motor doping that we are yet unaware of where F1 tech can be of service.

Having said that, the F1 links are of course just one piece of evidence pointing towards motor use in the propeloton. In isolation it wouldn't mean much.
For instance, I'm rather suspicious of someone like Gerard Vroomen, founder of Cervelo, even though I'm not aware that he has any links to F1.

My sense is that an F1 style program would have limited impact. Batteries are limited by material science. Specifically, how much lithium you can pack into the electrodes on a volumetric basis. You could go with a solid lithium anode, but that's what caused the first generation to explode spontaneously (dendritic formations during cycling causing a short). The rest is hard science that will only yield moderate improvements. The big gains have already been made.

Likewise, motors are an engineering problem that has been largely solved. Again, material science comes into play as you look for better rare earth magnets and such if you're looking for power density improvements.

Roughly speaking batteries and motors have been suitable for this application since ~2000. I would know. I worked at a Li Ion battery manufacturer (1994 to 1999) that was at the forefront of R&D and was one of the first to commercialize Li Ion cells. My colleague and friend lead the effort to commercialize their use in power tools. You know, small, light motors and batteries.

The big gains have been in motor control, power regulation and system integration. In 2000, a team could have put together a viable hidden bike motor but at some engineering cost. Today you can use off the shelf components or get a Chinese OEM to build something to spec. Even better you get an SoC (system on a chip) with lots of processing power and all the radio functions you'd need to go wireless.

Either way, there's really no need for an "F1" style effort or the attendant expertise.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I wouldn't get too hung up on the "F1" thing. It's used all the time as a badge of honor to confer some kind of legitimacy. It's kind of like NASA that way. Just because someone worked there (and thousand do), it's not like they're some kind of wizard with magical powers. But it looks great in the press and when looking for financing!

John Swanson

By all means a fair point.

But to see such a wide range of top teams and top-pro's collaborating with the same F1 guy (Simon Smart) is eerie, to say the least.
It reminds of the old Ferrari/Fuentes monopoly and it typically means the person in question has something rather valuable to sell.

F1 tech could help with:
- reducing size of batteries and motors;
- increasing capacity of batteries and motors;
- heat shielding/isolation so as to avoid detection by thermal cams;
- noise reduction;
I assume those three are the main areas, but I can imagine there's a shipload of additional (more trivial?) features related to motor doping that we are yet unaware of where F1 tech can be of service.

Having said that, the F1 links are of course just one piece of evidence pointing towards motor use in the propeloton. In isolation it wouldn't mean much.
For instance, I'm rather suspicious of someone like Gerard Vroomen, founder of Cervelo, even though I'm not aware that he has any links to F1.

My sense is that an F1 style program would have limited impact. Batteries are limited by material science. Specifically, how much lithium you can pack into the electrodes on a volumetric basis. You could go with a solid lithium anode, but that's what caused the first generation to explode spontaneously (dendritic formations during cycling causing a short). The rest is hard science that will only yield moderate improvements. The big gains have already been made.

Likewise, motors are an engineering problem that has been largely solved. Again, material science comes into play as you look for better rare earth magnets and such if you're looking for power density improvements.

Roughly speaking batteries and motors have been suitable for this application since ~2000. I would know. I worked at a Li Ion battery manufacturer (1994 to 1999) that was at the forefront of R&D and was one of the first to commercialize Li Ion cells. My colleague and friend lead the effort to commercialize their use in power tools. You know, small, light motors and batteries.

The big gains have been in motor control, power regulation and system integration. In 2000, a team could have put together a viable hidden bike motor but at some engineering cost. Today you can use off the shelf components or get a Chinese OEM to build something to spec. Even better you get an SoC (system on a chip) with lots of processing power and all the radio functions you'd need to go wireless.

Either way, there's really no need for an "F1" style effort or the attendant expertise.

John Swanson

your posts on this topic are always a treat.

I don't know yet what to make of the F1 link.
I probably agree with your verdict that there's "no need for an "F1" style effort".
However, the links are real and manifold, even if I don't quite grasp what the nature of the links is.
I do think (and have been told) that F1-derived tech is used for heat shielding and noise reduction.
Remember also what Lemond said about it, referring to the TOTAL engineers: "They also told me they could hide everything, isolating the engine". TOTAL as you know is involved in F1.
If we look specifically at Typhoon e-bikes, who we can safely assume are providing e-bikes to pro's (otherwise why the tip-off from Barfield): well we have Gary Anderson of course, but the very owner of the brand, Harry Gibbings, is and has always been closely involved in F1 too.
I've found some other salient links, too. Might get to that later.

Here's a nice 7min. video to get a bit of an impression of Simon Smart. He's testing wheels in the Mercedes Benz F1 testing facility with Dimension Data rider Nick Dougal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ_U8KB6zXw
(It may mean nothing, but notice how nervous Smart is, despite talking about his field of expertise.)

 

[Tienus]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky-join-forces-with-formula-ones-mclaren/

Team Sky has enlisted the support and expertise of McLaren Applied Technologies (MAT) to provide technical support for its riders in the lead up to the squad's debut season.

Part of the McLaren group, MAT provides the electronic technology for British-based Formula One motor racing team Vodafone McLaren Mercedes.

According to the article they designed stuff like skinsuits.

 

[sniper]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky-join-forces-with-formula-ones-mclaren/

Team Sky has enlisted the support and expertise of McLaren Applied Technologies (MAT) to provide technical support for its riders in the lead up to the squad's debut season.

Part of the McLaren group, MAT provides the electronic technology for British-based Formula One motor racing team Vodafone McLaren Mercedes.

According to the article they designed stuff like skinsuits.

Funny how that goes.
You pay for F1 electronic technology, and you get skinsuits.
Makes hiring Geert Leinders to treat saddle sores sound credible.

Also reminds me a bit of those famous "battery powered hotpants" from Loughborough:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19063554
The clothing is thought to perform a job similar to tyre warmers in Formula 1 racing, designed to improve performance.

A team of experts working three years on that. right. I wonder if anybody ever used them?


By the way, might be nothing, but the previously-mentioned Typhoon guy Gary Anderson is ex-McLaren and Stewart Grand Prix who later became Jaguar and now Red Bull.
http://www.typhoonbicycles.com/pages/technology/gary-anderson/
All sort of seems to tie in together doesnt it.

 

[sniper]

Very good common sense piece on motors in cycling.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/most-sportsmen-cheat-theyd-be-mad-not-to/

 

[sniper]

Re:

Someone got caught already. Try to keep up ebandit.

And, well, yes it is evidence.
If small time crooks are doing tax fraud, it's evidence that bigger thugs are also doing it.
Not proof of course.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Who is Tony Purnell?

Tony Purnell (born 23 May 1958 in Carshalton, Surrey) is an English businessman, and former principal of the Jaguar and Red Bull Formula One teams.
...
In May 2013 Purnell joined British Cycling as head of its much-vaunted "Secret Squirrel Club" responsible for technical development, succeeding Chris Boardman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Purnell

now go here please: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl_xsrwVAAIfdNw.jpg

btw, I love this from Boardman in response to the French rumor (rumor? Yes, rumor) that BC are using "magic wheels":

Boardman responded by insisting Britain's equipment had been approved by the sport's governing body, the International Cycling Union.[/b]
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/22525004

Hatts off if you can read that without dropping your jaw.
So instead of saying "well, why don't you come over and have a look, tear those wheels apart and see if you find anything", he says "well, the former BC president approved of these BC wheels, so move on please".

Whenever i see UCI approved i automatically think someone is cheating and the UCI are getting a backhander

Dimitris Katsanis was also a secret squirel and he has been hiren as a UCI consultant.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/man-behind-team-gb-bikes-hired-by-uci-as-consultant-22282

Only now seeing this.

The sheer audacity.

So first they put Cookson, BC president, in charge of UCI. Then Cookson brings in Dimitris "the man behind GB bikes" Katsanis as a technical consultant, as well as Mark Barfield, long-time president of UK Triathlon, as technical director.
And then when the French accuse Team GB of having "magic wheels", Boardman - who, incidentally, has worked closely together with Katsanis on GB bike development for many years - simply says "well, UCI approved our equipment so there's really nothing to see here, now move on please".

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Someone got caught already. Try to keep up ebandit.

that belgium cyclo crosser? we all know that

i'm referring to a pro tour/continental racer as claimed...................

Mark L

Really, we had Cassani demonstrating it. We have WT team members saying they are in use. We have LeMond saying it.

There was a CBS 60 minutes on it.

If the history of cheating in this sport is anything to go by, that is huge amounts of evidence.

 

[sniper]

Someone got caught already. Try to keep up ebandit.

that belgium cyclo crosser? we all know that

i'm referring to a pro tour/continental racer as claimed...................

Mark L

Well then be more specific.

And, if we know it, why are we ignoring it?
On the previous page we had several posters repeating after each other that (I paraphrase) "there are no rumors, there is no evidence, nothing".
On this page we have MarkvW saying

Sooner or later somebody will be caught

which you just repeated.

Clearly there seems to be a need to remind people that somebody already got caught.

We don't want this to turn into that discussion on Sky, do we, where the Sky fan says "there's no evidence".
Then someone more sceptical says "But what about Wiggins?", and the Sky fan replies "sure but that one doesn't count".

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Someone got caught already. Try to keep up ebandit.

that belgium cyclo crosser? we all know that

i'm referring to a pro tour/continental racer as claimed...................

Mark L

Really, we had Cassani demonstrating it. We have WT team members saying they are in use. We have LeMond saying it.

There was a CBS 60 minutes on it.

If the history of cheating in this sport is anything to go by, that is huge amounts of evidence.

That bolded part, people tend to forget. Jean Pierre Verdy has spoken about it on multiple occasions.

UCI guy Mark Barfield tipping off Typhoon is another big red flag.
(although admittedly that was revealed by those 'sensationalist' journalists from Stade 2; so it might be "utter balls" )

 

[MarkvW]

Re:

bless! if ya don't like my replys members may reply how they choose...........

as i have often stated i think motors have occasionally been used in pro tour races...............

the more use............the sooner we will have disclosure,,,,,,,,,,,obvious innit!

Mark L

Yes. We obviously mean Pro Tour racers.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

bless! if ya don't like my replys members may reply how they choose...........

as i have often stated i think motors have occasionally been used in pro tour races...............

the more use............the sooner we will have disclosure,,,,,,,,,,,obvious innit!

Mark L

Seems your reply's are from a behind a wall perspective or more like flying blind.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

In addition to the Barfield-Typhoon tip off, there was this of course from the 60 Min doc:

According to 60 Minutes, unnamed sources told them that the UCI would not allow investigators to remove Team Sky’s wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/60-minutes-report-on-motorized-doping-raises-questions-about-team-sky-and-uci-at-2015-tour-de-france/

UCI's complicity, their sheer determination to catch nobody and visible efforts to keep it all under wraps, that's the real story here.
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/883063581197185024

Then you here a guy like Christian Vandevelde say this:

“Cookson and the UCI are getting the job done on motor fraud,” Vande Velde said. “It is too risky to try this in a road race, and it will stay that way as long as the UCI flashes their muscle with effective testing. I give the UCI credit for being proactive on this. They have been testing for a few years already.”
http://www.dohacycling2016.com/american-riders-support-increased-motor-checks-laud-uci-efforts/

Smell the coffee.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Someone got caught already. Try to keep up ebandit.

that belgium cyclo crosser? we all know that

i'm referring to a pro tour/continental racer as claimed...................

Mark L

Really, we had Cassani demonstrating it. We have WT team members saying they are in use. We have LeMond saying it.

There was a CBS 60 minutes on it.

If the history of cheating in this sport is anything to go by, that is huge amounts of evidence.

Lemond isn't a primary source. He's just repeating what we all already have heard. So is 60 minutes. We certainly have a couple of people saying they've been used in WT races but most of what you're citing here is the same source.

There is certainly some evidence and a whole lot of reason to be suspicious. Beyond that there is rampant speculation as to who and when which relies on fairly thin evidence. There's some fire, but there's a ton of smoke and very little direct evidence of the fire.

We know it's probably happening, we have little reason to believe it's not. Who and when? Not so much. Will be nice at some point to get some hard evidence.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

In addition to the Barfield-Typhoon tip off, there was this of course from the 60 Min doc:

According to 60 Minutes, unnamed sources told them that the UCI would not allow investigators to remove Team Sky’s wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced.
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/60-minutes-report-on-motorized-doping-raises-questions-about-team-sky-and-uci-at-2015-tour-de-france/

UCI's complicity, their sheer determination to catch nobody and visible efforts to keep it all under wraps, that's the real story here.
https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/883063581197185024

Then you here a guy like Christian Vandevelde say this:

“Cookson and the UCI are getting the job done on motor fraud,” Vande Velde said. “It is too risky to try this in a road race, and it will stay that way as long as the UCI flashes their muscle with effective testing. I give the UCI credit for being proactive on this. They have been testing for a few years already.”
http://www.dohacycling2016.com/american-riders-support-increased-motor-checks-laud-uci-efforts/

Smell the coffee.

Not forgetting Brailsford claiming during last years tour that he had received an email from the UCI thanking them for being the most cooperative team in the peloton when it came to testing for motors.

How does this tally with the UCI going against the advice of the French police in disassembling and weighing wheels. Nothing to see here, move along. Can we have any faith that the procedures were reviewed and improved upon (as advised by police) for the opening TT of this years tour for instance where sky blew their competitors away.

 

[thehog]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

This is hilarious, take a look st the UCI bike motor checker in the linked video. Waves his iPad around for a second or two, then walks off. The UCI look really intent on catching motor doping! :lol:

https://twitter.com/dcrainmakerblog/status/882998512367026176

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

This is hilarious, take a look st the UCI bike motor checker in the linked video. Waves his iPad around for a second or two, then walks off. The UCI look really intent on catching motor doping! :lol:

https://twitter.com/dcrainmakerblog/status/882998512367026176

That is unbelievably amateur and looks like nothing has changed despite police warnings and several people raising concerns. They just don't want to know. At least Lappartient looks as though he intends to treat it more seriously when he recently said:


''There is no one way to combat technological fraud. One has to combine all the possibilities.''

''Tablets, xrays, disassembly of bikes etc. Labarotories should also be certified in this area.''

''I have some differences with Brian Cookson on technological fraud. It's a major challenge for our sport.''


It sounds like a veiled dig at Cooksons determination to look the other way.