Re:
Like Femke, was already rumored to be on a motor.
Probably an old Vivax Assist on an Argon bike (the same bikes Astana ride, just for reference).
Was not caught with the i-Pad (which detects magnetism) but with a heat detecting device.
Starting to look much like regular doping now. Catch some small fish who don't have the resources to buy the good stuff and will bend over without singing.
Andreoli, 53 yo. Sad.capuldemetal said:
Like Femke, was already rumored to be on a motor.
Probably an old Vivax Assist on an Argon bike (the same bikes Astana ride, just for reference).
Was not caught with the i-Pad (which detects magnetism) but with a heat detecting device.
Starting to look much like regular doping now. Catch some small fish who don't have the resources to buy the good stuff and will bend over without singing.
- Aug 30, 2010
- 3,809
- 501
- 15,080
Don't know if there is a Kwiatkowski thread so here. I would rate him off the charts on the doper list. Lets see if he does a Gilbert impersonation. Maybe another good year, get the massive contract, then disappear into obscurity for three years before being resurrected by some other team with better marginal gains.
I'm more than happy to be in the 'most of them are doping' camp but the motors thing doesn't ring true....think about the logistics.
Doping is easy enough to facilitate as an individual, Armstrong used to take himself off to Ferrari's place, Froome disappears back to Africa by himself often enough to raise questions but motors require a conspiracy and agreement, not just asking a team but across rival teams and hungry rival riders.
We had an expression in my previous field of work:
Tell nobody and nobody knows, tell somebody and everyone knows.
In other words doing something nefarious by yourself and keeping it secret is easy enough to do but the minute you tell a trusted colleague or a best friend they also then tell their best friend or a trusted colleague until leaks appear and in the end the truth comes out.
Motors in the bikes would require mechanics to be in on the gig, the data/analyst guys to be in on in too, maybe the UCI, then teammates and even if a rider and his spanner monkey kept it between themselves the data guys would be staring blankly at their screens trying to work out why X-rider's bike spikes in power by 50 watts (or whatever) on each haute categorie climb, and then the offending rider has to make up reasons for his improvement that other riders will buy and his mechanic has to start acting very suspiciously so the other mechanics don't spot him stripping down a motor, and egos have to managed as rider-Z may have thought he was heir apparent to be the next team leader and GC contender but rider-X is now blowing everyone away, total team collusion in other words, and what happens when rider-Z (annoyed at not being leading the GC charge) swaps teams?...does he take his suspicions to his new team and tell them they will have to use motors to beat rider-X...that's now two teams in on it and so on and so forth until I suppose the whole peleton are in on it...with the associated mechanics, data guys etc...that's a he'll of a secret to keep...and during all this no single rider thinks to drop a rival in it like Armstrong is rumored to have done with his rivals, guys accustomed to winning just sit quietly and watch their careers get stolen from them?...at least with conventional doping in a perverse and bizarre way they all had access to EPO, steroids, HGH etc (the internet is a wonderful thing) if they decided to go down that route, what about the riders who are lacking charisma and aren't well liked in the sport?...are they supposed to have the ability to suddenly change character and conduct an elaborate mechanized doping program that they trust nobody will speak about or are they the ones shut out on the fringes while the rest of the riders enjoy the newfound motor doping?...they seen ideally placed to speak out and level the playing field back in their favor...who decides which rider will be in-form this year and get a pass to motor dope, do they all meet in secret at the beginning of the season and draw straws to divide up the Belgian classics to this rider, the GC tours to this other rider and the second half of the season classics to yet another rider...seems far fetched and again you're relying on ego maniac riders that wantv to win just rolling over and agreeing that Sagan can have it all this season but Kwiat must get a chance next and for 2018?....sorry human nature (and especially the nature off elite sportsmen) doesn't work like communism....and in amongst all this are reporters and journos desperate for a scoop, motorized doping would be a big one (probably the biggest of all, bigger than Lance) but I suppose they're in on it too and are happy to let the biggest story of their careers go by?...again human nature doesn't work like that, one story and one book with the required T.V. appearances after and they're set for life....or they keep quiet and accept an annual wage, the endless traveling and the lack of job security as newer younger journalists come up or the newspaper they write for goes bust...for motorized doping to be viable pretty much the entire sport and those reporting on it have to be in unison and agreement, no dissenting voices, all teams and riders have to be prepared to put aside personal rivalries and work in agreement as to who has motors and who doesn't and if the simple answer is that they all have them they why no pics from paparazzi, reporters, fans etc while snooping around the mechanics and the bikes... I know I'd happily post online (or sell) pics I had taken of a pro cyclists bike with a motor embedded in it's
If one gets detected at an elite level then I'll happily say I was wrong but for this to be 'a thing' that's regularly occurring at a world level too many people have to be involved for it to work smoothly and those that know would then have to be happy setting aside all personal ambition to allow order riders from their team (and other teams!) to take the spoils, I just don't buy it yet...it would take a culture change in both the sport and human nature in general to work.
Doping is easy enough to facilitate as an individual, Armstrong used to take himself off to Ferrari's place, Froome disappears back to Africa by himself often enough to raise questions but motors require a conspiracy and agreement, not just asking a team but across rival teams and hungry rival riders.
We had an expression in my previous field of work:
Tell nobody and nobody knows, tell somebody and everyone knows.
In other words doing something nefarious by yourself and keeping it secret is easy enough to do but the minute you tell a trusted colleague or a best friend they also then tell their best friend or a trusted colleague until leaks appear and in the end the truth comes out.
Motors in the bikes would require mechanics to be in on the gig, the data/analyst guys to be in on in too, maybe the UCI, then teammates and even if a rider and his spanner monkey kept it between themselves the data guys would be staring blankly at their screens trying to work out why X-rider's bike spikes in power by 50 watts (or whatever) on each haute categorie climb, and then the offending rider has to make up reasons for his improvement that other riders will buy and his mechanic has to start acting very suspiciously so the other mechanics don't spot him stripping down a motor, and egos have to managed as rider-Z may have thought he was heir apparent to be the next team leader and GC contender but rider-X is now blowing everyone away, total team collusion in other words, and what happens when rider-Z (annoyed at not being leading the GC charge) swaps teams?...does he take his suspicions to his new team and tell them they will have to use motors to beat rider-X...that's now two teams in on it and so on and so forth until I suppose the whole peleton are in on it...with the associated mechanics, data guys etc...that's a he'll of a secret to keep...and during all this no single rider thinks to drop a rival in it like Armstrong is rumored to have done with his rivals, guys accustomed to winning just sit quietly and watch their careers get stolen from them?...at least with conventional doping in a perverse and bizarre way they all had access to EPO, steroids, HGH etc (the internet is a wonderful thing) if they decided to go down that route, what about the riders who are lacking charisma and aren't well liked in the sport?...are they supposed to have the ability to suddenly change character and conduct an elaborate mechanized doping program that they trust nobody will speak about or are they the ones shut out on the fringes while the rest of the riders enjoy the newfound motor doping?...they seen ideally placed to speak out and level the playing field back in their favor...who decides which rider will be in-form this year and get a pass to motor dope, do they all meet in secret at the beginning of the season and draw straws to divide up the Belgian classics to this rider, the GC tours to this other rider and the second half of the season classics to yet another rider...seems far fetched and again you're relying on ego maniac riders that wantv to win just rolling over and agreeing that Sagan can have it all this season but Kwiat must get a chance next and for 2018?....sorry human nature (and especially the nature off elite sportsmen) doesn't work like communism....and in amongst all this are reporters and journos desperate for a scoop, motorized doping would be a big one (probably the biggest of all, bigger than Lance) but I suppose they're in on it too and are happy to let the biggest story of their careers go by?...again human nature doesn't work like that, one story and one book with the required T.V. appearances after and they're set for life....or they keep quiet and accept an annual wage, the endless traveling and the lack of job security as newer younger journalists come up or the newspaper they write for goes bust...for motorized doping to be viable pretty much the entire sport and those reporting on it have to be in unison and agreement, no dissenting voices, all teams and riders have to be prepared to put aside personal rivalries and work in agreement as to who has motors and who doesn't and if the simple answer is that they all have them they why no pics from paparazzi, reporters, fans etc while snooping around the mechanics and the bikes... I know I'd happily post online (or sell) pics I had taken of a pro cyclists bike with a motor embedded in it's
If one gets detected at an elite level then I'll happily say I was wrong but for this to be 'a thing' that's regularly occurring at a world level too many people have to be involved for it to work smoothly and those that know would then have to be happy setting aside all personal ambition to allow order riders from their team (and other teams!) to take the spoils, I just don't buy it yet...it would take a culture change in both the sport and human nature in general to work.
@deviant, i think you may have missed a few posts upthread, such as this one:
viewtopic.php?p=2160980#p2160980
and this one:
viewtopic.php?p=2163314#p2163314
and in fact many more.
Feel free to address them, rather than posting in a context-less vacuum ignoring all previous debate.
viewtopic.php?p=2160980#p2160980
and this one:
viewtopic.php?p=2163314#p2163314
and in fact many more.
Feel free to address them, rather than posting in a context-less vacuum ignoring all previous debate.
- Jun 22, 2010
- 5,013
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/53-year-old-amateur-rider-caught-using-hidden-motor-at-italian-race/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/53-year-old-amateur-rider-caught-using-hidden-motor-at-italian-race/
thehog
BANNED
- Jul 27, 2009
- 31,285
- 2
- 22,485
Re: Re:
It's a peloton. Not a peleton. Landa rode a full Giro. He didn't coast the entire race. He rode it at 100% for the majority of the race. He probably could have then won the Tour if on a different team. He certainly is an enigma. Even Walsh thought he was doping at Astana.
yaco said:
It's a peloton. Not a peleton. Landa rode a full Giro. He didn't coast the entire race. He rode it at 100% for the majority of the race. He probably could have then won the Tour if on a different team. He certainly is an enigma. Even Walsh thought he was doping at Astana.
- Mar 29, 2016
- 6,974
- 2
- 9,485
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/53-year-old-amateur-rider-caught-using-hidden-motor-at-italian-race/
So they can not be found without someone tipping off the officials and the magic iPad was not used?
So they can not be found without someone tipping off the officials and the magic iPad was not used?
- Aug 14, 2012
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Manuel Quinziato don't seem happy with Gazzetta talking about motor doping. Maybe they struck a nerve?
https://twitter.com/manuelquinziato/status/891601435741343744
Neither seem Albanese, Warbasse, Tonelli, Moscon, among others, who retweeted or liked the post. Well, if I was a pro I would certainly support someone who exposed a cheater, even if at the amateur level.
https://twitter.com/manuelquinziato/status/891601435741343744
Neither seem Albanese, Warbasse, Tonelli, Moscon, among others, who retweeted or liked the post. Well, if I was a pro I would certainly support someone who exposed a cheater, even if at the amateur level.
Re:
It's pretty easy to see someone dropping $20,000 or more for a 30 Watt system that is*fully* hidden and runs for an hour. That would require four Li Ion cells which could easily fit in the frame and then some. Small circuit board for motor control, smarts, and wireless controls - no buttons! Nylon gears to make it quiet, because hey, 30 Watts doesn't need anything more than that. And I'm a firm believer that you could tuck that 30 Watt motor into a rear hub plus freehub. The biggest problem would be electrical contacts molded into the dropouts. But considering the number of guys who can seamlessly repair carbon frames these days...
And why 30 Watts? Well who would want an extra 30 Watts? That would be an extra 0.4 W/kg for most guys. And you wouldn't have to risk your bike taking off like a motorcycle or sounding like a chainsaw either.
Anyways, these amateurs that are getting caught are using amateur level motors. I'm certain that anyone who's motivated could get their hand on something far more sophisticated.
John Swanson
Yeah, conceptually it's a bit weird to think that although they are easy to buy, install and use that nobody is using them. And the Vivax type system really is a decade old system. Kind of the equivalent of buying steroids from guys at the local gym.Robert5091 said:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/53-year-old-amateur-rider-caught-using-hidden-motor-at-italian-race/
So they can not be found without someone tipping off the officials and the magic iPad was not used?
It's pretty easy to see someone dropping $20,000 or more for a 30 Watt system that is*fully* hidden and runs for an hour. That would require four Li Ion cells which could easily fit in the frame and then some. Small circuit board for motor control, smarts, and wireless controls - no buttons! Nylon gears to make it quiet, because hey, 30 Watts doesn't need anything more than that. And I'm a firm believer that you could tuck that 30 Watt motor into a rear hub plus freehub. The biggest problem would be electrical contacts molded into the dropouts. But considering the number of guys who can seamlessly repair carbon frames these days...
And why 30 Watts? Well who would want an extra 30 Watts? That would be an extra 0.4 W/kg for most guys. And you wouldn't have to risk your bike taking off like a motorcycle or sounding like a chainsaw either.
Anyways, these amateurs that are getting caught are using amateur level motors. I'm certain that anyone who's motivated could get their hand on something far more sophisticated.
John Swanson
BTW, I'm currently unemployed. I know I'd be sorely tempted if someone offered me $50-100k to design and build a system for them and keep my mouth shut about it.
John Swanson
John Swanson
Re:
Some will always complain - How do you think some doping cases are found - Via tipping off by others which can then lead to target testing etc - You should be rejoicing you have another piece of concrete evidence to support the assertions in this thread, rather than being sarcastic!
Robert5091 said:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/53-year-old-amateur-rider-caught-using-hidden-motor-at-italian-race/
So they can not be found without someone tipping off the officials and the magic iPad was not used?
Some will always complain - How do you think some doping cases are found - Via tipping off by others which can then lead to target testing etc - You should be rejoicing you have another piece of concrete evidence to support the assertions in this thread, rather than being sarcastic!
Re:
Yeah, but there's a difference between posting the criteria for evidence to be credible vs the credible evidence itself. There's no "debate" going on -- it's merely a few posters insisting that a video clip or ill-timed bike change proves something. You can't debate that beyond "yes it is" -- "no it isn't"
This second motor use "positive" has changed nothing -- a few low-level/amateur riders going rogue. Not in the WT peloton at the moment, and possibly not ever.
sniper said:
Yeah, but there's a difference between posting the criteria for evidence to be credible vs the credible evidence itself. There's no "debate" going on -- it's merely a few posters insisting that a video clip or ill-timed bike change proves something. You can't debate that beyond "yes it is" -- "no it isn't"
This second motor use "positive" has changed nothing -- a few low-level/amateur riders going rogue. Not in the WT peloton at the moment, and possibly not ever.
- Mar 29, 2016
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- 2
- 9,485
Re: Re:
I'm glad he was found out - just a shame it did not happen without the tip-off or the use of the iPad as we'd know it at least works. Maybe someone will try it out on the bike in question.
yaco said:Robert5091 said:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/53-year-old-amateur-rider-caught-using-hidden-motor-at-italian-race/
So they can not be found without someone tipping off the officials and the magic iPad was not used?
Some will always complain - How do you think some doping cases are found - Via tipping off by others which can then lead to target testing etc - You should be rejoicing you have another piece of concrete evidence to support the assertions in this thread, rather than being sarcastic!
I'm glad he was found out - just a shame it did not happen without the tip-off or the use of the iPad as we'd know it at least works. Maybe someone will try it out on the bike in question.
Re: Re:
As for the i-Pad, it works theoretically, but only on old big crank assist models, and only if you actually switch it on
The tablet allegedly picks up (ferro-)magnetic signals.
Rear hub motors are safe. I'm not sure about magnetic wheels (I guess they could theoretically be detected by the tablet), but who cares, UCI say they don't exist so why test for it.
Everything about UCI's motor testing has been pathetic (as outlined abundantly in this thread).
An unreal insult to the brain.
Not difficult to do the math on that one.
Agreed.Robert5091 said:
As for the i-Pad, it works theoretically, but only on old big crank assist models, and only if you actually switch it on
The tablet allegedly picks up (ferro-)magnetic signals.
Rear hub motors are safe. I'm not sure about magnetic wheels (I guess they could theoretically be detected by the tablet), but who cares, UCI say they don't exist so why test for it.
Everything about UCI's motor testing has been pathetic (as outlined abundantly in this thread).
An unreal insult to the brain.
Not difficult to do the math on that one.
Re:
I'd take your money....
Ach, no I wouldn't. Wait. Let's negotiate.
John Swanson
sniper said:
I'd take your money....
Ach, no I wouldn't. Wait. Let's negotiate.
John Swanson
Re: Re:
needless to say I think Valverde is a paradigm example of the trend I'm referring to.Blanco said:
Re: Re:
If you didn't see any evidence of widespread motoruse previously, then this case isn't going to open your eyes.
But it does provide a nice (if only a small) injection into the debate about motors, which doesn't hurt anybody (except those who use or have used a motor).
The wider problem with the public motor discussion is that, in order to be consistent, you'd have to question some of the most popular whistleblowers out there including Rasmussen and Landis (and imo Jaksche, too).
And so it's telling in my view that someone like Digger is not going there. He's questioning Froome and motors, sure, but his whistleblower buddies? No way. It's a major taboo topic.
Someone like Ulrich, too, shall not be questioned over motors. Takes all the romance away from the epic doping.
An additional issue is that working with numbers in procycling, calculating climbing times, power outputs, and doing historical comparisons, etc. becomes a totally pointless/moot and scientifically spurious undertaking. It's not hard to understand hy social media data analysts like Innerring and Amatypyoralli try so hard to ignore the topic. Motors make a mockery out of their hobbies.
For EPO (and doping at large) to be taken seriously, we needed Festina.
Motors will need a scandal of similar magnitude for it to become salonfahig.
I tend to agree.Bolder said:
If you didn't see any evidence of widespread motoruse previously, then this case isn't going to open your eyes.
But it does provide a nice (if only a small) injection into the debate about motors, which doesn't hurt anybody (except those who use or have used a motor).
The wider problem with the public motor discussion is that, in order to be consistent, you'd have to question some of the most popular whistleblowers out there including Rasmussen and Landis (and imo Jaksche, too).
And so it's telling in my view that someone like Digger is not going there. He's questioning Froome and motors, sure, but his whistleblower buddies? No way. It's a major taboo topic.
Someone like Ulrich, too, shall not be questioned over motors. Takes all the romance away from the epic doping.
An additional issue is that working with numbers in procycling, calculating climbing times, power outputs, and doing historical comparisons, etc. becomes a totally pointless/moot and scientifically spurious undertaking. It's not hard to understand hy social media data analysts like Innerring and Amatypyoralli try so hard to ignore the topic. Motors make a mockery out of their hobbies.
For EPO (and doping at large) to be taken seriously, we needed Festina.
Motors will need a scandal of similar magnitude for it to become salonfahig.
- Aug 30, 2010
- 3,809
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Has UCI ever actually shown a video of how their ipads are supposed to work. I mean showing a clean bike and then one with a motor in it. I don't recall. Only the stupid video of someone waving their ipad over the bike or in the detention tent which shows nothing.
- Jul 25, 2012
- 12,967
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Re:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-reveals-technology-used-to-detect-mechanical-doping/
They have shown it to journalists, I'm unsure if the video is available online though.veganrob said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-reveals-technology-used-to-detect-mechanical-doping/
Re: Re:
- only on old vivax crank assist motors. Newer crank assist systems, as well as rear hub motors are completely safe;
- you have to use the i-pad very slowly and carefully, otherwise it won't even signal the old models.
Another red flag is of course that UCI has hardly even used the thing, except during TdF 2016/17.
The vast majority of UCI-licenced races (regardless of discipline), since Femke's bust, have gone without testing, even though UCI's argument to use the I-pad (as opposed to more expensive thermal cams), was that it would allow them to test at as many races as possible. Snakeoil.
indeed. And as mentioned, the thing does kind of work, but (as far as I've understood):King Boonen said:
- only on old vivax crank assist motors. Newer crank assist systems, as well as rear hub motors are completely safe;
- you have to use the i-pad very slowly and carefully, otherwise it won't even signal the old models.
Another red flag is of course that UCI has hardly even used the thing, except during TdF 2016/17.
The vast majority of UCI-licenced races (regardless of discipline), since Femke's bust, have gone without testing, even though UCI's argument to use the I-pad (as opposed to more expensive thermal cams), was that it would allow them to test at as many races as possible. Snakeoil.
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