Motor doping thread

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

Yeah it's amazing how normally sceptical people seem to believe everything that support their preexisting beliefs...

Strawman arguments everywhere, and the above statement also appears to apply to people who believe that there are no motors in the pro peloton.

That's just not true! What's wrong with questioning Varjas? What's wrong with trying to pick holes in the Stade 2 stuff? How else do you work through everything to discover the truth, you don't have to believe that there are no motors in the peloton to find holes in certain things that are used as evidence of motor use. I've seen a heap of incidents that people claim is evidence of a motor use which can be easily dismissed as the opposite, I've seen some things that can't be easily explained. It's healthy to have a discussion on this subject and not have posters dismiss it away as strawman arguments.

For the record I do believe some riders/teams have at least tried motor use but I don't believe it is as rampant as some do, I see a heap of performances that some scream motor and I just see old fashioned doping.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Based on the tone of your previous posts I presume you are being sarcastic. If so, can you point out the untruthful bit. Most rational people can see that the testing mechanism is a PR tool but you appear to be suggesting that Lappartient is telling a lie in claiming that the current testing procedures are inadequate. Even if motors weren't being used in the pro peloton why would it be a negative to carry out more testing if there is nothing to fear.

Froome claimed yesterday that bikes have been disassembled for years yet the UCI claimed that further testing only takes place if the tablet detects the existence of a motor in the first instance. We know that Barfield previously tipped off manufacturers about impending bike checks and that the UCI ignored advice of French police in refusing to have wheels weighed even though it takes 5 seconds to remove them.

It's not necessarily untruthful. But a standard electioneering technique for a non-incumbent to to create an imaginary foe, in this case motors. He's not saying that the current testing iis inadequate - he's promising more expensive, flashier testing (X-rays etc). Testing that he will never deliver if elected because in reality he doesn't believe motors are being used.

(I'm guessing your still waiting for the Mexicans to pay for a wall or an extra £350m a week to be paid to the NHS)

An imaginary foe? You are living in never never land.

Now you are claiming to know the inner workings of Lappartient's brain. I don't know what he thinks but he would be an incredibly incompetent official if he ignored the advice of the police and refused to carry out the additional testing recommended.

What is your modus operandi? Please set it out. If you believe there are not motors being used then what is there to fear from the more extensive testing, weighing, x-raying and dismantling of bikes? Surely a more open and transparent process is one to be welcomed. As for your analogy to Donald Trump and Boris Johnson comments I really don't get the relevance other than to deflect.

 

[telencefalus]

one important italian journal documented that Ipad doesn't work and i trust them more than uci mafia

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Haven't had time to read much, but freddy claiming an electro-magnetic motor doesn't need magnets, just coils was pretty funny!

Here is a screenshot of Varjas's 'MAGIC WHEEL' hub motor.

While it might not be the size of a house, it's certainly not looking like any rear hub ever seen in the peloton or even the hubs the program makers claim were glowing hot in Strade Bianche lol! Lets remember, this is the man supposed to be selling this 'magic' wheel to riders in Tour de France and that it can't be detected by UCI and is invisible to viewers. While this might be true, it would seem it is only invisible to those who are blind perhaps?

 

[samhocking]

This is the most we ever see of how the hub actually works. 3 wires, but like the live demo, it still has a huge hub shell so it's not magic, it's just very big.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Haven't had time to read much, but freddy claiming an electro-magnetic motor doesn't need magnets, just coils was pretty funny!

Here is a screenshot of Varjas's 'MAGIC WHEEL' hub motor.

While it might not be the size of a house, it's certainly not looking like any rear hub ever seen in the peloton or even the hubs the program makers claim were glowing hot in Strade Bianche lol! Lets remember, this is the man supposed to be selling this 'magic' wheel to riders in Tour de France and that it can't be detected by UCI and is invisible to viewers. While this might be true, it would seem it is only invisible to those who are blind perhaps?

:lol: Well, perhaps this is just a prototype, and perhaps Varjas is like johniscool: if you give him x k€ he will build you an (visibly) undetectable hub motor :lol:

 

[samhocking]

No the program makers claim 'this is Varjas's magic wheel'. The wheel under the bubble wrap is a hub motor fitted to a manufacturers rim. The program makers claim the bubble wrap is to hide the maker of the wheel that Varjas has retro-fitted his hub. As we can see from the image above of said wheel, the hub is huge. Does it look like a Shimano Dura-Ace C50 rear hub? Does it look like a Zipp rear hub, Enve, Mavic, Campagnolo? No, it looks like the hub shown spinning in the live demo and just as big and obvious as if I used a watermelon to build a hub out of.

 

[miguelindurain111]

Re:

No the program makers claim 'this is Varjas's magic wheel'. The wheel under the bubble wrap is a hub motor fitted to a manufacturers rim. The program makers claim the bubble wrap is to hide the maker of the wheel that Varjas has retro-fitted his hub. As we can see from the image above of said wheel, the hub is huge. Does it look like a Shimano Dura-Ace C50 rear hub? Does it look like a Zipp rear hub, Enve, Mavic, Campagnolo? No, it looks like the hub shown spinning in the live demo and just as big and obvious as if I used a watermelon to build a hub out of.

Yeah I know, just having a little fun with myself :razz: Varjas is just a snake oil salesman.

 

[DanielSong39]

Varjas' disclosed methods are probably years out of date and are no longer being used in the pro peloton.

 

[samhocking]

Sorry, missed the 'visibly' sarcasm bit : )

I think it's simply Varjas claiming his magic wheels are used in the pro peloton and marketing them to rich amateurs through Strade 2 who are also lapping up whatever he claims to be possible if you pay him enough money.

So far everything Varjas claims is theory from his mouth only. Everything physically made by him and shown by Strade 2 is clearly not ever going to be usable in pro cycling or supports his theories so far. All Strade 2 have to do is ask Varjas to show a complete bike that visibly looks like any bike in the peloton and film someone riding it, just like we see everyday watching cycling on TV. Varjas could use an unbranded generic open mould frame off Aliexpress and generic open mould rims and unbranded generic hubs and build a bike that does what he says. No manufacturer sponsoring cycling then needs to be involved, no bubble-wrap of blurring out logos, just a basic generic bike that can't be detected visibly or with Stade 2's UCI tablet.

 

[thehog]

Re:

one important italian journal documented that Ipad doesn't work and i trust them more than uci mafia

It's fairly much proven well beyond reasonable doubt that the iPad dectection method is seriously flawed. He only question remains, did the UCI do this deliberately to avoid catching riders with motors and allow themselves to assist in the shaping of results.

One thing is for sure, the testing is not independent and not conducted by the same methods through each test.

 

[ontheroad]

I'm slightly baffled by this dismissal of Varjas by some poster's who know nothing of the man nor his motive's other than pure guess work. Attacking him as being a snake oil salesman is just an easy way of dismissing the fact that motor's exist in the peloton.

Why would Jean Pierre Verdy who was testing director for AFLD in the tour for 20 years say the following when asked about the use of motor's in the tour:

''Yes, of course. It's been the last three to four years when I was told about the use of the motors. And in 2014, they told me there are motors. And they told me, there's a problem. By 2015, everyone was complaining and I said, something's got to be done.

Verdy said he's been disturbed by how fast some riders are going up the mountains. As a doping investigator, he relied for years on informants among the team managers and racers in the peloton, the word for the pack of riders. These people told Jean-Pierre Verdy that about 12 racers used motors in the 2015 Tour de France.''

Lemond, French police, Whitaker, Gilbert's agent have all corroborated the concerns over motor usage in the pro peloton, yet some people have still not woken up to the fact that it is clearly happening and has been happening for some years.

 

[Parker]

Re:

I'm slightly baffled by this dismissal of Varjas by some poster's who know nothing of the man nor his motive's other than pure guess work. Attacking him as being a snake oil salesman is just an easy way of dismissing the fact that motor's exist in the peloton.

Currently he is the only source for motor stories.

I view him as a charleton because he says nonsense things like "This isn't a motor, this is electro-magnetic", he tells people lots of stories but shows them nothing and promises big revelations which come nothing. Nothing about him sits right.

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

one important italian journal documented that Ipad doesn't work and i trust them more than uci mafia

It's fairly much proven well beyond reasonable doubt that the iPad dectection method is seriously flawed. He only question remains, did the UCI do this deliberately to avoid catching riders with motors and allow themselves to assist in the shaping of results.

One thing is for sure, the testing is not independent and not conducted by the same methods through each test.

The bolded just sums up the UCI perfectly

 

[samhocking]

Everyone is saying there's motors, yet nobody, including the man supposedly their inventor can't show even one that works and looks as he claimed and shown in the documentary with the thermal camera at Strade 2? We know what it's supposed to look like because we see them everyday live on Europsport lol. What's to hide?

 

[Benotti69]

That hardcore Skyfans (or paid interns take your pick) are in this thread trying to dismiss the motors and Varjas(who is one manufacturer, no doubt plenty of others out there) is testament to motor use.

We have been down this road with cheating in the sport of professional cycling. In pro cycling where there is smoke there is fire.

That they fail to explain Sky's dominance, Froome's massive transformation and other tell tale signs of cheating again points to a team cheating. Whether it be motors, PEDs or a combination of both. I go for the latter. Never mind Sky's littany of lies.

Varjas is one motor manufacturer who has been willing to come forward. Yes he looks as dodgy as some claim, but that don't make his claims false.

It has been demonstrated it is possible. 1 professional rider was caught and 1 grandfondo rider was caught. Now this stuff comes from the top down, not grassroots up. Like all latest tech, it is expensive at first, prohibitively so to the average Joe, but as more comes on stream the older stuff gets flogged off etc etc...

To deny motor use in pro cycling is to deny they are on 2 wheels.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

I'm slightly baffled by this dismissal of Varjas by some poster's who know nothing of the man nor his motive's other than pure guess work. Attacking him as being a snake oil salesman is just an easy way of dismissing the fact that motor's exist in the peloton.

Currently he is the only source for motor stories.

I view him as a charleton because he says nonsense things like "This isn't a motor, this is electro-magnetic", he tells people lots of stories but shows them nothing and promises big revelations which come nothing. Nothing about him sits right.

It is an even bigger surprise that he has even spoken on the topic in the first place.

Now rather than deflecting and continuing attacking Varjas' credentials can you point out what exactly it is that you disagree with in Lappartient's proposed changes to tackle technological fraud that you failed to address previously? Should we scrap all testing completely? If there are no motors as you appear to suggest then why worry about his proposals.

Do you still believe that motor's are not currently being used? Is Verdy telling lies and why would an AFLD former director tell lies about the existenc eof motors? What about Lemond? What about French police and their concerns? What about Wathelet? Are they all wrong? Are they all snake oil salesmen?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Everyone is saying there's motors, yet nobody, including the man supposedly their inventor can't show even one that works and looks as he claimed and shown in the documentary with the thermal camera at Strade 2? We know what it's supposed to look like because we see them everyday live on Europsport lol. What's to hide?

There were plenty of ebikes at eurobike fair last week.

Davide Cassani had one on RAI sport a few years back. Motors in bikes has been demonstrated in the 80s. A quick google will show the videos.

So stop the obfuscation. It aint working.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I'm slightly baffled by this dismissal of Varjas by some poster's who know nothing of the man nor his motive's other than pure guess work. Attacking him as being a snake oil salesman is just an easy way of dismissing the fact that motor's exist in the peloton.

Currently he is the only source for motor stories.

I view him as a charleton because he says nonsense things like "This isn't a motor, this is electro-magnetic", he tells people lots of stories but shows them nothing and promises big revelations which come nothing. Nothing about him sits right.

A charlatan?

What does that make Dave Brailsford then?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

one important italian journal documented that Ipad doesn't work and i trust them more than uci mafia

It's fairly much proven well beyond reasonable doubt that the iPad dectection method is seriously flawed. He only question remains, did the UCI do this deliberately to avoid catching riders with motors and allow themselves to assist in the shaping of results.

One thing is for sure, the testing is not independent and not conducted by the same methods through each test.

The bolded just sums up the UCI perfectly

It is very odd. Whilst Cookson touted his "independent" dope testing via the CADF he has kept motor dope testing in-house and with a subpar system that doesn't work. There has been refusal from the UCI to be transparent on how the system works with a few press releases claiming they conducted 40,000 tests. We've all seen the videos on how much the UCI care about motor testing, wave the iPad here, wave the iPad there and walk away.

It's sad that Cookson came with so much promise to deliver so little.

 

[ontheroad]

Re:

That hardcore Skyfans (or paid interns take your pick) are in this thread trying to dismiss the motors and Varjas(who is one manufacturer, no doubt plenty of others out there) is testament to motor use.

I don't even think harcore sky fans would be as defensive as some of the people on here. At the very least, it would be foolhardy not to have an open mind on the matter at this stage. It is one thing not believing in the actual usage of motor's (which is looking increasingly ludicrous) but their continuous implausible deniability and deflection methods are making it blindingly obvious that there is an agenda at play here with some.

 

[samhocking]

Ebikes are detectable. Their hub versions are huge, all frame versions are detectable. It doesn't mean anything to what is being claimed, just because I can buy an ebike. The claim by Varjas and Strade 2 etc are undetectable motorised bikes are used in the peloton, but nobody seems to be able to show one that both looks like a normal bike and works as claimed. It's obfuscation from Varjas and everyone claiming they exist but continually show an empty rim with some holes cut out and a circuit board inside and now a large black hub that looks like any other ebike hub I can buy myself anyway. Hardly magic yet if I can see it's a motor with my eyes!

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Ebikes are detectable. Their hub versions are huge, all frame versions are detectable. It doesn't mean anything to what is being claimed, just because I can buy an ebike. The claim by Varjas and Strade 2 etc are undetectable motorised bikes are used in the peloton, but nobody seems to be able to show one that both looks like a normal bike and works as claimed. It's obfuscation from Varjas and everyone claiming they exist.

The UCI never policed the sport in a fair, just and transparent manner. So don't bother quoting them as a reliable honest source for anything.

eBikes that one buys at a local bike shop don't need to hide the motors from fans.

That the UCI are pretending to test for motors alone tells us they are credible. I don't remember the UCI in any guise being a willing deterrent to cheats in pro cycling.

I notice the UCI are not suing anyone about claims of motor in use. That tells us a lot.

"It's obfuscation from Varjas and everyone claiming they exist". Sure, it is. Paid by the post or word?

 

[samhocking]

I make concrete for a living, was a computer programmer for 10 years before that. Raced bikes for 30 years and make an annual pilgrimage to a Grand Tour or World Champs every other year for the last 35. You're deluded if you think I would do all this under my real name and not a pseudonym if paid to write anything here. You can find me here on facebook, on youtube on twitter blardyblah all under my birth name. Says a lot that even my presence here results in you thinking i'm paid by Sky to not believe you, but then this whole clinic is essentially built on conspiracy, so perhaps should be assumed lol.

Here's me out on my bike in 1988/9 6th from the left.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re:

Ebikes are detectable. Their hub versions are huge, all frame versions are detectable. It doesn't mean anything to what is being claimed, just because I can buy an ebike. The claim by Varjas and Strade 2 etc are undetectable motorised bikes are used in the peloton, but nobody seems to be able to show one that both looks like a normal bike and works as claimed. It's obfuscation from Varjas and everyone claiming they exist but continually show an empty rim with some holes cut out and a circuit board inside and now a large black hub that looks like any other ebike hub I can buy myself anyway. Hardly magic yet if I can see it's a motor with my eyes!

I have to agree with you here. Having just come back from 2 weeks holiday in Holland (where incidentally e bikes accounted for 70% of total bike sales last year) the e bikes have either a massive battery on the downtube or under the pannier with an equally massive motor (bosch or yamaha) around the bottom bracket. I saw a couple which appeared to be in the hub but as others have said the hub was enormous.

*And this is with multinational companies like Bosch or Yamaha putting in $$$$ of R&D into this technology*

From what I understand it is claimed that the seat post/bottom bracket style motors are likely to operate around a brush-less motor similar to what you find in an battery drill (albeit smaller version). The idea that Varjas (or any other back street engineer), can come up with a battery motor combination that is both lighter, smaller and generating more torque than a company such as Yamaha or Bosch is a stretch.

Not saying its impossible but its a stretch........