Motor doping thread

[DrSahl]

Its pretty certain that seat tube/BB motors saw some 'testing' in the pro platoon, and we can all buy one. Hub motors in a standard hub shell are an entirely different thing. Unless I missed it, no one has shown a concept let alone a working model yet (some sketches, yes...).

That may be so, but my knowledge about that is not good enough, thus I refrain from making to many claims about it. Doping however, that I know is a vivid part of professional sport and that includes cycling.
Hub motors seems like it is something for the future.

 

[BlueRoads]

It's obvious that there is motor doping going on and some teams are better at it than others.

We watch the sport for entertainment and cheating is part of the sport (and the entertainment).

It's one thing if people wish to exercise a suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the show but quite another when people make the "holier than thou" statements claiming that they couldn't possibly be cheating.

Let's enjoy cycling for what it is, a show. They use wires in theater too but no one throws a hissy fit when people claim that the actors can't really fly.

The theater comparison doesn't really work for me. Pro sports works this way: There are specific rules and the spectator wants to know who's best within these rules, that's the excitement. Theater is not about who's best.

And about the motor thing: How can you say it's obvious?? What, apart from these claims that don't sound coherent or logic at all, tells you there's motor doping?

1. That would mean there is in-competition doping, not only during a rest day, but during the race! That's the highest risk you can take.
2. One of the main reasons why it is so hard to catch dopers is that you do not need things to be suspicious, you need them to be water-proof. If the values are over what can be reasonably expected, but could, in complete theory, be for real, the anti-doping agencies can't do more than test and test again. If they catch a motor or something like that in a bike, they have a 100% sure proof.
3. There are obviously many ways to dope and not get caught, limits within which you can work, why would you choose the one with such a high chance to get caught? The effect would have to be out of this world to make this worth it and although there is a big difference between some teams and riders, it is not that big.

(4. One of the few hints we have, in my eyes, is that there is doping at altitude camps, especially with Bahrain and Jumbo. What speaks for in-race doping?)

 

[jmdirt]

That may be so, but my knowledge about that is not good enough, thus I refrain from making to many claims about it. Doping however, that I know is a vivid part of professional sport and that includes cycling.
Hub motors seems like it is something for the future.

If you are interested, Google Vivax (Gruber) hidden motors. Several USA riders, a Canadian rider, and several UKers have YouTube videos of situations that indicate something could be in there. If my memory serves me correctly, one of the USAers admitted to using one.

Hub motors in a standard hub seem very difficult due to the lack of space (and the tiny pieces required in that tiny space). There are small electric motors for skateboards, but you have to fit it (obviously something similar) in the hub, and also make it work with the freehub.
Skateboard Motor Link
Hub Motor Link
Vivax Link

 

[Ripper]

TBH I'm pretty skeptical about motors in bikes being an issue at the high level races. But I do see a flaw in the strategy of how they test bikes. They should also just take the bike out for a short test ride.

 

[zlev11]

i really dont see how a KERS system would work on a bicycle. how are they getting the energy from braking into the hub? not only that, it would be prohibitively expensive, to the point where i dont even think it would be worth it considering the measly amount of money involved in cycling, compared to say F1.

i think there's a good chance motors are in use, but in my opinion they're barking up the wrong tree with this theory.

 

[Bolder]

I'm willing to believe that someone somewhere has fitted a motor and battery in a WT bike and even tested it in training, but I have a hard time believing that anyone would use them in the Tour. But one way to make sure it doesn't happen is a death penalty for the entire team involved, ie lifetime ban.

 

[jmdirt]

I'm willing to believe that someone somewhere has fitted a motor and battery in a WT bike and even tested it in training, but I have a hard time believing that anyone would use them in the Tour. But one way to make sure it doesn't happen is a death penalty for the entire team involved, ie lifetime ban.

What about other races?

 

[jmdirt]

Wouldn't really dismiss a Pierre Carrey article as a Swiss rag but ok


Some journalists showing motor tech today:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1416356438897799169

View: https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/1416356438897799169

https://twitter.com/x/status/1416356365136801792

View: https://twitter.com/cyclingpro/status/1416356365136801792

I don't know that publication hence why I asked about it. And in my verbiage 'rag' is not an insult. One of my favorite bike publications ever was Dirt Rag. EDIT: I'll change it...

Interesting videos! I need to see three more things to be convinced: someone actually using it (actually powering the wheel in a race like situation), and shifting gears, oh yah, and the actual motor/battery/system. This could very well be similar to the skateboard motor I posted below.

I've seen two spoofs like this: one was able to spin the wheel in a bike stand, but just the weight of the bike sitting on the ground was too much for the motor to move the bike, the other could actually assist the bike, but the battery and supporting system were too big and heavy to be used in racing.

EDIT: both of those example are too noisy to use in a race.

 

[luckyboy]

I could go crazy. All these ridiculous things going on, and nobody says a thing in the media, but now these stupid motor doping claims come up and they even talk about it during the broadcast. Start to use your brains guys, please.

I don't think any media can say 'X Y Z looks dirty or ridiculous' because they will just get sued out of business by billionaire Ineos owner or the states that fund UAE and Bahrain.

If some riders talk about motors or doping suspicions then they can report it. What else can they do lol

 

[Mayomaniac]

The whole Kers thing sounds like total bs to me. That and the fixation on Ketone drinks makes me think that the accusations come from the French teams.
Menwhile O'Conner has taken it to the nexet level once he joined Ag2R (Bardet was pushing his best numbers ever before crashimg out of the 2020 Tour and hasn't been the same since he joined DSM. G. Martin has also taken it to the next level once he joined Cofidis and on his day Gaudu is a world class climber.

 

[markene2]

Of course motor doping is in use, it was even in use back in 2010 with cancellara and breschel, breschel who was fuming after flanders since he got the wrong spare bike, the same race where cancellara litteraly motored away from boonen (go figure). Also Sky was notorius for motor usage, just watch Poels here motoring away up the Angliru lol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEsH8F1Hvns


Also 2013, especially with Froome up ventoux with the leaked watt files, its clear as day he is using a motor, you can also see it from the spectators view its so stupid.

Watch 1623004726764 | Streamable

Watch "1623004726764" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Foliforovs famous tt in the giro, also ebike.

https://imgur.com/vKU4FFq

Roglic had motor in the bike at Strade Bianche a few years back as the infrared spectator cam found out.

Now many top teams have it, you have to adapt or die out, as such sky/ineos dominance is more or less over as other teams have leveled the playing field.

Lets face it UCI has no interest in catching any of these guys, as with the useless ipad scam app. Spectators should set up ir cams during mountain stages on the roadside, i would guarante the bikes would glow. You would have to be emotionaly invested to belive otherwise.

 

[Ripper]

The whole Kers thing sounds like total bs to me. That and the fixation on Ketone drinks makes me think that the accusations come from the French teams.
Menwhile O'Conner has taken it to the nexet level once he joined Ag2R (Bardet was pushing his best numbers ever before crashimg out of the 2020 Tour and hasn't been the same since he joined DSM. G. Martin has also taken it to the next level once he joined Cofidis and on his day Gaudu is a world class climber.

Hey, Ag2R is super clean!

 

[ngent41]

The whole Kers thing sounds like total bs to me. That and the fixation on Ketone drinks makes me think that the accusations come from the French teams.
Menwhile O'Conner has taken it to the nexet level once he joined Ag2R (Bardet was pushing his best numbers ever before crashimg out of the 2020 Tour and hasn't been the same since he joined DSM. G. Martin has also taken it to the next level once he joined Cofidis and on his day Gaudu is a world class climber.

UAE dropping Merida and going to Bridgestone next season. Here's tadejs newest KERS bike.

 

[roundabout]

The whole Kers thing sounds like total bs to me. That and the fixation on Ketone drinks makes me think that the accusations come from the French teams.
Menwhile O'Conner has taken it to the nexet level once he joined Ag2R (Bardet was pushing his best numbers ever before crashimg out of the 2020 Tour and hasn't been the same since he joined DSM. G. Martin has also taken it to the next level once he joined Cofidis and on his day Gaudu is a world class climber.

Give a sign if you are being held hostage as usually your posts are more nuanced than the random 1 country accusations.

 

[luckyboy]

The whole Kers thing sounds like total bs to me. That and the fixation on Ketone drinks makes me think that the accusations come from the French teams.
Menwhile O'Conner has taken it to the nexet level once he joined Ag2R (Bardet was pushing his best numbers ever before crashimg out of the 2020 Tour and hasn't been the same since he joined DSM. G. Martin has also taken it to the next level once he joined Cofidis and on his day Gaudu is a world class climber.

O'Connor got a free 6:30 from everyone after winning from the break on Tignes and then finished with Kelderman in the Pyrenees which isn't really crazy.

Gaudu doesn't look abnormal for a talented 24 year getting to lead a team for the first time this year. He is another guy who will win now and then and just be somewhere in the middle/lower end of top 10 in GC.

 

[Rackham]

Of course motor doping is in use, it was even in use back in 2010 with cancellara and breschel, breschel who was fuming after flanders since he got the wrong spare bike, the same race where cancellara litteraly motored away from boonen (go figure). Also Sky was notorius for motor usage, just watch Poels here motoring away up the Angliru lol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEsH8F1Hvns


Also 2013, especially with Froome up ventoux with the leaked watt files, its clear as day he is using a motor, you can also see it from the spectators view its so stupid.

Watch 1623004726764 | Streamable

Watch "1623004726764" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Foliforovs famous tt in the giro, also ebike.

https://imgur.com/vKU4FFq

Roglic had motor in the bike at Strade Bianche a few years back as the infrared spectator cam found out.

Now many top teams have it, you have to adapt or die out, as such sky/ineos dominance is more or less over as other teams have leveled the playing field.

Lets face it UCI has no interest in catching any of these guys, as with the useless ipad scam app. Spectators should set up ir cams during mountain stages on the roadside, i would guarante the bikes would glow. You would have to be emotionaly invested to belive otherwise.

The Roglic story was always the far fetched one. It wasn't a spectator cam, it was a thermal camera used by Stade 2, i.e. a French TV crew working for France Television. The rear wheel in question was from the neutral car, not Jumbo's own. And that Roglic story came at a time when they were pretty desperate to find incriminating evidence about anyone (there's even an unintentionally hilarious clip of Contador's mechanic fiddling with his watch in the Giro which they used as "evidence" of remote controlled battery use). So people need to be careful not to make actual real investigative journalism/pertinent questions look like crackpot theories with vague random insinuations based on nothing but guesswork (which is what someone like Antoine Vayer specializes at).

But notwithstanding that fact, I do agree the Froome & Sky stuff is definitely weird. Even with regards to the wild sudden accelerations/decelerations on the climbs. Froome would suddenly take off (apparently without his heartrate rising, according to data) in a seated position, blow everyone away with huge speed & then slow down again.

And I have no doubt someone, somewhere, used motors in the Tour & pro-peloton (considering everything else has been done in the history of the sport, i.e. including jumping on a train during a stage in the first edition). I only question how widespread motor usage is because as we know with doping, when one rider saw what another guy was on, he wanted it. We'd get "trickle-down" motorized doping, as happened in the 1990's with EPO doping. And then someone would get popped because let's face facts: hiding a motorized bike is probably way harder & riskier than cheating the dope controls.

For example at the Col de la Loze last year in the Tour de France, the commissaires actually destroyed Roglic' bike (which he'd finished the stage second on) in search of a motor (& the DS Merijn Zeeman got into a verbal altercation with them & was expelled). That made headlines, whilst the small matter regarding the fact there was nothing wrong with the bike at all was barely mentioned.

 

[SigurdJ]

The most obvious examples of motor use I have seen is Froome on Ventoux 2013, Contador on Mortirolo 2015 and Pogacar in 2020 on the flat part of the TT.
They are not using hub motors, it's crank motors perhaps with waterbottle as battery, but even that is not necessary to get a huge advantage. There is room for a smaller battery in the downtube above the motor.

 

[BlueRoads]

And despite x-raying the bikes and dismantling some they don't find the batteries because?

 

[jmdirt]

Of course motor doping is in use, it was even in use back in 2010 with cancellara and breschel, breschel who was fuming after flanders since he got the wrong spare bike, the same race where cancellara litteraly motored away from boonen (go figure). Also Sky was notorius for motor usage, just watch Poels here motoring away up the Angliru lol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEsH8F1Hvns


Also 2013, especially with Froome up ventoux with the leaked watt files, its clear as day he is using a motor, you can also see it from the spectators view its so stupid.

Watch 1623004726764 | Streamable

Watch "1623004726764" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Foliforovs famous tt in the giro, also ebike.

https://imgur.com/vKU4FFq

Roglic had motor in the bike at Strade Bianche a few years back as the infrared spectator cam found out.

Now many top teams have it, you have to adapt or die out, as such sky/ineos dominance is more or less over as other teams have leveled the playing field.

Lets face it UCI has no interest in catching any of these guys, as with the useless ipad scam app. Spectators should set up ir cams during mountain stages on the roadside, i would guarante the bikes would glow. You would have to be emotionaly invested to belive otherwise.

As is obvious by my posts I definitely think that motors have been used and there are people working on better motors (smaller, more powerful, quieter, not metal, not detectable...). I do think that the iPad app can detect motors and I think that the mobile xray trailer can also detect things that shouldn't be in a bike. That being said, the streamable video was clearly manipulated. So far none of the thermal imaging convinces me of anything (so what are the chances of it convincing some who doesn't think that motors are even a possibility?). Spectators with ir cams (likely apps on their phone) are going to be better than the ipad apps? "A doesn't work/is fake, but everyone should use A to prove...".

 

[jmdirt]

My contention has always been that the best place to use a motor is in the platoon before the race gets 'serious'. Imagine saving 20 w (continuous) for an hour during the race, now you have more of your own watts to use on the big climb. Plus there is so much noise in the group that no one will notice. If its just five guys on the final climb not only will people likely hear it, it becomes more obvious on video that you have a different speed. As someone above noted, a TT is a great place to use a motor: no one around you to hear it, no one around you for a speed reference, more internal space in the aero tubes...

Flip side of that, the TT example was from the final TT last year, and if I remember correctly there were images of TP's bike being slid into the xray trailer. For me that ends the argument. I do however understand that if you think that the UCI is in on it, the xray trailer is just a cotton candy machine.

One other point, while I understand secrecy/silence codes/pacts (omerta etc...), it seems that we would have had someone who either lost a job (maybe not even a rider), retired, or just slowed down with a new team start singing. Maybe the article from yesterday will blow things open?

 

[markene2]

streamable video was clearly manipulated

no its not, also by using thermal imaging you could detect engines that are in use during a race, just like they did in strade in 2016. ucis phony little show is doing nothing, no one will be caught unless someone does it independently, a police raid or some spectator steals someone bike live on tv and the motor is active. to much money is lost otherwise

Hidden motors used at Strade Bianche, claims French TV (+ video)

Investigation from Stade 2 and Italy's Corriere della Sera used thermal imaging equipment

road.cc

 

[markene2]

But notwithstanding that fact, I do agree the Froome & Sky stuff is definitely weird. Even with regards to the wild sudden accelerations/decelerations on the climbs. Froome would suddenly take off (apparently without his heartrate rising, according to data) in a seated position, blow everyone away with huge speed & then slow down again.

It really clear, just watch his riding style during the vuelta breakthrough with no motor and compare it to the tours he won, he actually looks and rides like a bike rider during the vuelta, in the other years he just looks like a spinning donkey on a ebike, combined with the power data as you say, no increasing heartrate, its clear as day he was using a motor.

 

[Cookster15]

Incredible that this is still being discussed seriously. More chance of aliens landing.

 

[jmdirt]

Incredible that this is still being discussed seriously. More chance of aliens landing.

Wait, is there a thread for that? The USA gov recently admitted that they have been hiding UFO stuff for years. Sorry off topic!

There is some relevance though because I do think that there is more life out there than there is on earth, but will it land on earth? I do think that motors have been 'tested' in the pro platoon, I do think that people are always developing ways to cheat, but...

I'm not a conspiracy theorist (although...neverminded) so the entire UCI being in on it isn't ringing for me yet. Plus, like I said above, no one has come forward yet (unless the three riders from the article are starting it).

One other point: there isn't a lot of money to be had in cycling so spending too much to develop something probably isn't in the cards.

 

[King Boonen]

Cav winning loads of stages, big GC gaps and hub motor nonsense? It really is 10 years ago!