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Nairo Quintana discussion thread

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Re: Re:

Amazinmets87 said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
I remember back in the early 2000s one MiLB player was discovered to be 6 years younger than his claimed age and subsequently released. The most famous player caught misrepresenting his age is probably Alfonso Soriano.

It's not nearly as uncommon as many are making it out to be, and unsurprisingly so. The people in question often come from impoverished backgrounds; the money they stand to earn can set themselves their family, heck even their village for life.

Here's an article about it from the early 2000's. In this case we're talking most Dominican players if I remember correctly: http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20020317age0317p4.asp
 
Re:

Escarabajo said:
I am not liking this thread anymore.

Maybe we can close it. We only get insults and silly race jokes.

And for the comments from No_balls, I know the team don't give a s****. That's not the point we are discussing in this thread. The point was that Quintana was not being professional for note telling the team that he was feeling bad and was dropping when he told the story today that he told them well in advance that he was feeling bad and to work for Landa. That makes a difference if true.

And for Valverde's comments he should know better. Quintana has worked for him countless times in the past. Including the start of his career. Never had issues with that. And ridden with him many, many times.[/quote]

And that is exactly the most telling thing in this matter. Valverde never criticize his teammates, I mean literally never! Unzue also.
On one side we have Nairo who, two days after the controversial stage, claims that he told his mates and DS that he's not feeling good, and on the other side we have Unzue, Valverde, Landa... No one backed Quintana's story as far as I know, so to me it's pretty obvious which version is true.
As for Quintana working for Valverde countless times, well I remember also countless opposite cases.
 
Next year with a new team will be crucial for Nairo, if his problems relate to his current team and his relationship with Landa then perhaps a change will be good for him, or it could be all the problems stem from himself which doesn't bode well for his future.

It feels like he has taken his eye of the ball perhaps due to his celebrity status back home in Colombia
 
Re: Re:

Blanco said:
Escarabajo said:
I am not liking this thread anymore.

Maybe we can close it. We only get insults and silly race jokes.

And for the comments from No_balls, I know the team don't give a s****. That's not the point we are discussing in this thread. The point was that Quintana was not being professional for note telling the team that he was feeling bad and was dropping when he told the story today that he told them well in advance that he was feeling bad and to work for Landa. That makes a difference if true.

And for Valverde's comments he should know better. Quintana has worked for him countless times in the past. Including the start of his career. Never had issues with that. And ridden with him many, many times.[/quote]

And that is exactly the most telling thing in this matter. Valverde never criticize his teammates, I mean literally never! Unzue also.
On one side we have Nairo who, two days after the controversial stage, claims that he told his mates and DS that he's not feeling good, and on the other side we have Unzue, Valverde, Landa... No one backed Quintana's story as far as I know, so to me it's pretty obvious which version is true.
As for Quintana working for Valverde countless times, well I remember also countless opposite cases.
Yeah, I really have no clue what those countless times working for Valverde refers to.
 
Dec 31, 2017
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del1962 said:
Next year with a new team will be crucial for Nairo, if his problems relate to his current team and his relationship with Landa then perhaps a change will be good for him, or it could be all the problems stem from himself which doesn't bode well for his future.

It feels like he has taken his eye of the ball perhaps due to his celebrity status back home in Colombia
Move to Arkea never helped anyone. He'll end his career after this contract
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Remember Danny Almonte and the little league World Series? :lol: :lol:

The kid was like 17 playing with a bunch of 12 year olds.
 
There is nothing unusual about a human losing some physical shape aged 29. Horner, Valverde, Vinokourov and Longo all enjoyed a lot of success in their late 30s and beyond, but that shouldn't make anyone think that that is the norm.
 
May 12, 2015
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Fergoose said:
There is nothing unusual about a human losing some physical shape aged 29. Horner, Valverde, Vinokourov and Longo all enjoyed a lot of success in their late 30s and beyond, but that shouldn't make anyone think that that is the norm.
No, at 29 a road cyclist should be at their peak. In fast twitch sports such as sprinting you would expect a small slip in performance.
 
There was a discussion in another thread a while back about riders having their absolute highest level peak for about 5 years. For riders like Quintana and a lesser respect Contador they were at the peak of human physiology at 24/25, it would have to take a toll
Holding that form for so long. Where riders like G, Evans, Froome found theirs later
 
Re:

del1962 said:
Next year with a new team will be crucial for Nairo, if his problems relate to his current team and his relationship with Landa then perhaps a change will be good for him, or it could be all the problems stem from himself which doesn't bode well for his future.

It feels like he has taken his eye of the ball perhaps due to his celebrity status back home in Colombia
This is true. Only time will tell.
 
Jan 8, 2013
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Re: Re:

Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.
 
Mar 6, 2011
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Re: Re:

gospina said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.
I think Koronin has made a honest mistake there. I would hard she has muddled Central and South America. As a fairly avid baseball fan I cant think of a single South American example but could name 4 Dominican examples of the top of my head
 
Re: Re:

hrotha said:
Singer01 said:
The only thing that makes any sense is that he was actually about 32 when he made his breakthrough. How has he fallen so far?
How would it make any sense that he improved so much between l'Avenir at 29 and the Tour at 32?

Quintana is not the first rider to fade early and he won't be the last, but you won't see these insinuations thrown at other riders. This casual racism thing doesn't do anyone any favours.
I think racism might be taking it a bit far. But its one of those cases where if you're joking I'd at least add a LOL or a smiley, otherwise it does seem like Singer01 is kicking a can that shouldn't be kicked.
Lequack said:
Maybe the lack of more strict training program. Apparently a lot of Colombians like to train at home so you never truly know their form until they come to race.
Yep, here we go. Yeah, many riders train closer to home in the offseason, but some of them move closer to their teams during the season. Same as riders from anywhere.
Amazinmets87 said:
Koronin said:
Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
I remember back in the early 2000s one MiLB player was discovered to be 6 years younger than his claimed age and subsequently released. The most famous player caught misrepresenting his age is probably Alfonso Soriano.

It's not nearly as uncommon as many are making it out to be, and unsurprisingly so. The people in question often come from impoverished backgrounds; the money they stand to earn can set themselves their family, heck even their village for life.
And here we go again. Alfonso Soriano, from the "South American" country of the Dominican Republic, lied about his age. So maybe that means Colombian cyclists could be doing so too. This is like saying since that if you are American you likely make great Tacos, on the basis that people in the North American country of Mexico do so. Actually, that would be far more geographically accurate, but still not a useful generalization to make, IMHO.
roundabout said:
Ever Rivera got fired from his team for claiming to be 1 year younger than he was

But that is the only case that I know of and it is difficult to imagine that each one of Quintana, Atapuma and Henao lied about their age.
As far as I know, that was a suspicion that arose in his Colombian team way back when, but Rivera was never found to be guilty of it and he's back racing with his listed age unchanged. But I may be wrong on that point.
perico said:
My theory has always been that Colombian climbers born at high altitude may start their decline sooner because of the time at altitude (not talking about the larger, allrounders like Uran). They come into the peloton with their climbing ability closer to their maximum capabilities than riders from other countries. It goes back to Herrera who was basically washed up as a contender by 1990. Fabio Parra was 30 at the time. Meija (though that may have been due to his resistance to joining a clinic in the 1990s). Now Nairo has hit the same age where many other compatriots started to fade.

It's just a theory, but he hasn't done anything in almost three years in a major race and this is the 2nd GT in a row where he can't even stay with Valverde.
Yeah, I mean I'm can't categorically disprove that, but I do think you're cherry-picking your examples. I've addressed this before, it comes that theory comes to naught when you look at guys like Rigo or Chochise or Botero, guys you're now conveniently excluding from your theory. And, as you (and Escarabajo) alluded to, there's the fact that most of the stars of the 80s like Fignon and LeMond also faded very suddenly as the Indurain generation rose up. The shuttering of the Cafe de Colombia and Postobon teams didn't help either.

To be fair, most of those "rouleurs" are from the middle altitudes, maybe when you get to the higher altitudes you might run into something like LeMond's theory on de-training explosiveness out of the muscles. But while that may be something to look into, I also think there is very little data to draw those sort of conclusions with any authority. The way its often presented does look to me like more of an unfounded stereotype. But as always, YMMV.
 
Re: Re:

gospina said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.

Here's one article. There are others out there. I should have typed Latin America instead of South America. So I do apologize for that.

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20020317age0317p4.asp
 
Re: Re:

Midnightfright said:
gospina said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.
I think Koronin has made a honest mistake there. I would hard she has muddled Central and South America. As a fairly avid baseball fan I cant think of a single South American example but could name 4 Dominican examples of the top of my head

Thanks. I did. I typed South and really meant Latin, although you're right that Central would be more accurate.
 
Jan 8, 2013
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Re: Re:

Koronin said:
Midnightfright said:
gospina said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.
I think Koronin has made a honest mistake there. I would hard she has muddled Central and South America. As a fairly avid baseball fan I cant think of a single South American example but could name 4 Dominican examples of the top of my head

Thanks. I did. I typed South and really meant Latin, although you're right that Central would be more accurate.
I think the frustration comes about from generalization. Latin means anyone from Latin descent, so people from Portugal, Italy, France, Spain and the countries they colonized like Haiti, most of the caribbean maybe Quebec are considered Latin. Its too huge of a demographic to generalize. Its equivalent to associate German or Swiss athletes for doing something because Russia and Kazakhstan did something similar. To bring it back to the point, no one from that REGION Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuala, Bolivia, Peru has had a history of lying about their age.
With Quintana, it is the equivalent of saying all white people look the same or all black people look the same. To some, he looks like an old person. To me, he looks very young. I know features of people from that part of Colombia and he never looked like an old person to me. People that continue to make fun of his "old face" imply to me that they are ignorant. In terms of citing people faking their birth certificate, clearly you were generalizing and associating that with Cuba and the Dominican republic (a mecca of baseball, by the way, the produce more baseball players than any other country)
 
Re: Re:

gospina said:
Koronin said:
Midnightfright said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.
I think Koronin has made a honest mistake there. I would hard she has muddled Central and South America. As a fairly avid baseball fan I cant think of a single South American example but could name 4 Dominican examples of the top of my head

Thanks. I did. I typed South and really meant Latin, although you're right that Central would be more accurate.
I think the frustration comes about from generalization. Latin means anyone from Latin descent, so people from Portugal, Italy, France, Spain and the countries they colonized like Haiti, most of the caribbean maybe Quebec are considered Latin. Its too huge of a demographic to generalize. Its equivalent to associate German or Swiss athletes for doing something because Russia and Kazakhstan did something similar. To bring it back to the point, no one from that REGION Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuala, Bolivia, Peru has had a history of lying about their age.
With Quintana, it is the equivalent of saying all white people look the same or all black people look the same. To some, he looks like an old person. To me, he looks very young. I know features of people from that part of Colombia and he never looked like an old person to me. People that continue to make fun of his "old face" imply to me that they are ignorant. In terms of citing people faking their birth certificate, clearly you were generalizing and associating that with Cuba and the Dominican republic (a mecca of baseball, by the way, the produce more baseball players than any other country)[/quote]


You realize that Latin America refers to basically all countries of both Central and South America, correct? Also couldn't remember if it was Dominican or if there were players from other countries involved as well. The reason for my original post was to show that this type of thing HAS HAPPENED, but that's not what YOU want to read. At this point, you want to complain about wording and not care that lying about age is something that HAS happened in sports in the past. If it's happened in place it COULD happen in other places. Doesn't mean it has, but it is out there. There were comments stating that this has NEVER happened, which would incorrect as it HAS happened. By the way, when you say Latin America anyone who is from Europe would in no way be included in that.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
gospina said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.

Here's one article. There are others out there. I should have typed Latin America instead of South America. So I do apologize for that.

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20020317age0317p4.asp
Every single example in that article is from the Dominican Republic. Why they state that it's a Latin American problem is, again, puzzling.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
You realize that Latin America refers to basically all countries of both Central and South America, correct? Also couldn't remember if it was Dominican or if there were players from other countries involved as well. The reason for my original post was to show that this type of thing HAS HAPPENED, but that's not what YOU want to read. At this point, you want to complain about wording and not care that lying about age is something that HAS happened in sports in the past. If it's happened in place it COULD happen in other places. Doesn't mean it has, but it is out there. There were comments stating that this has NEVER happened, which would incorrect as it HAS happened. By the way, when you say Latin America anyone who is from Europe would in no way be included in that.
I think his point is that he doesn't understand why people are linking the Dominican Republic with Colombia for some reason and saying that because something is happening in one it could be happening in the other.
 
Re: Re:

carton said:
Koronin said:
gospina said:
Koronin said:
hrotha said:
You do see it about other athletes, though, and they all happen to be POC. But I'm sure it's all a huge coincidence.

There's also the unspoken assumption: "He's from Colombia, this kind of thing happens in a place like Colombia".

Unfortunately there have been cases of this actually happening in Major League Baseball with South American athletes in the past. Not often, but on occasion.
Can you please cite a reference? This is news to me..and being that I follow sports from south america pretty closely, I am calling you out to prove it. I really giving you the benefit of the doubt here..I am REALLY hoping you don't think Dominican Republic is in South America. It's in North America for most of the world, Central America/Caribbean if you are from the United States.

Here's one article. There are others out there. I should have typed Latin America instead of South America. So I do apologize for that.

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20020317age0317p4.asp
Every single example in that article is from the Dominican Republic. Why they state that it's a Latin American problem is, again, puzzling.

So you expect people to remember things from almost 2 decades ago that they didn't pay a whole lot of attention to at that time. I did NOT remember what countries were involved in that. I do hope YOU remember every little detail of EVERYTHING from 2 decades ago esp things you didn't pay a lot of attention to in the first place.
 

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