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Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Re: Re:

python said:
BullsFan22 said:
python said:
john, ask chernusov about his norwegian coaching ;)

...calle's 28 sec profit to ustiogov is a lot. but it is a 15 k classic, which should take 40 +/- mins. that is, the advantage is roughly 2-2.5%. this does not look cosmic if the snow conditions, weather, waxing errors and even some bad luck decide to interfere.

a very interesting race will almost certainly happen behind, where, being only 15 sec +/- seconds off, krogh, klaebo, sundby and iversen will no doubt organize a mad chase. i give it an 80% chance they will 'swallow' serhey.
that's where his tactic will be important ! if i were him, i would race the 1st 2-3 km at a slightly faster than full throttle, attempting to shrink the front gap and increase the gap to the norge. if the feedback favours the tactic, i'd commit to a 100% racing alone. if otoh, the norge chase is too furious, i'd relax my horses, let them catch up and sit on them with hellner and harvey. i am convinced that's how vyleg would race. then, once the last 100 m approach, dash. only harvey from that group imo could match him in a an all-out 7-10 sec acceleration. we'll see.

Sundby will be the one doing most of the work in that chasing group, no doubt about that. That means that they will be chasing from the start, so Ustiugov needs to be smart. What you said, that's what I think is the most likely tactic he'll use. If he's feeling good, he should go hard the first couple km's. If they close on him, then he should probably slow it down and let them come and recover and sit in as long as he can and then pounce. If they are not closing quickly on him, then he has to do his own race and be consistent. Considering the shape Calle is in, I suspect he won't be messing around at the front, so Ustiugov will be in no-mans land, but closer to the group than Calle, which is why I think Sergey will ease up and wait. Then again, he's a professional and I am sure he knows what's best for him, and his coaches will sit through it and give him advice.

What about our good friend Petter? Seems kind of a waste to have come to Lillehammer to race. What will he do tomorrow? Just sit in as he normally does and hope that the group he is with drags him as far forward as possible?
guess what recent classic race comes to mind of about the same length while trying to project the tomorrow ? yep, the tour of canada, stage 2...

of course there was no calle there and it was a mass start in a city park, but roughly the same actors raced as if it was a pursuit.

then and there ustiougov raced off the front right from the start for 95% of time, almost never giving up the 1st position or even sharing it when eversen briefly stepped up. his goal was simply to distance sundby b/c he was fed the splits showing the chasing sundby's growing gaps. it was a boltsy performance indicative of his tactical acumen. he also showed an impressive double polling stemming from his powerful back which was largely responsible for being able to distance sundby that day. while he was passed by iversen and petter in the last 1.5 km, he held and increased the gap to sundby. iirc, it was 20+ sec at the finish.

what i am trying to say is that calle is probably safe, but the race behind is going to be very hot with ustiugov remembering how he raced in canada this year.

Yes, however that was a much different course and the conditions were much different-blustery, blowing snow, narrow course, and a mass start. Yes, he went from the start, but you also have to take in consideration that Sundby fell in that race.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Re: Re:

BullsFan22 said:
python said:
BullsFan22 said:
python said:
john, ask chernusov about his norwegian coaching ;)

...calle's 28 sec profit to ustiogov is a lot. but it is a 15 k classic, which should take 40 +/- mins. that is, the advantage is roughly 2-2.5%. this does not look cosmic if the snow conditions, weather, waxing errors and even some bad luck decide to interfere.

a very interesting race will almost certainly happen behind, where, being only 15 sec +/- seconds off, krogh, klaebo, sundby and iversen will no doubt organize a mad chase. i give it an 80% chance they will 'swallow' serhey.
that's where his tactic will be important ! if i were him, i would race the 1st 2-3 km at a slightly faster than full throttle, attempting to shrink the front gap and increase the gap to the norge. if the feedback favours the tactic, i'd commit to a 100% racing alone. if otoh, the norge chase is too furious, i'd relax my horses, let them catch up and sit on them with hellner and harvey. i am convinced that's how vyleg would race. then, once the last 100 m approach, dash. only harvey from that group imo could match him in a an all-out 7-10 sec acceleration. we'll see.

Sundby will be the one doing most of the work in that chasing group, no doubt about that. That means that they will be chasing from the start, so Ustiugov needs to be smart. What you said, that's what I think is the most likely tactic he'll use. If he's feeling good, he should go hard the first couple km's. If they close on him, then he should probably slow it down and let them come and recover and sit in as long as he can and then pounce. If they are not closing quickly on him, then he has to do his own race and be consistent. Considering the shape Calle is in, I suspect he won't be messing around at the front, so Ustiugov will be in no-mans land, but closer to the group than Calle, which is why I think Sergey will ease up and wait. Then again, he's a professional and I am sure he knows what's best for him, and his coaches will sit through it and give him advice.

What about our good friend Petter? Seems kind of a waste to have come to Lillehammer to race. What will he do tomorrow? Just sit in as he normally does and hope that the group he is with drags him as far forward as possible?
guess what recent classic race comes to mind of about the same length while trying to project the tomorrow ? yep, the tour of canada, stage 2...

of course there was no calle there and it was a mass start in a city park, but roughly the same actors raced as if it was a pursuit.

then and there ustiougov raced off the front right from the start for 95% of time, almost never giving up the 1st position or even sharing it when eversen briefly stepped up. his goal was simply to distance sundby b/c he was fed the splits showing the chasing sundby's growing gaps. it was a boltsy performance indicative of his tactical acumen. he also showed an impressive double polling stemming from his powerful back which was largely responsible for being able to distance sundby that day. while he was passed by iversen and petter in the last 1.5 km, he held and increased the gap to sundby. iirc, it was 20+ sec at the finish.

what i am trying to say is that calle is probably safe, but the race behind is going to be very hot with ustiugov remembering how he raced in canada this year.

Yes, however that was a much different course and the conditions were much different-blustery, blowing snow, narrow course, and a mass start. Yes, he went from the start, but you also have to take in consideration that Sundby fell in that race.
sundby falling much earlier had no impact of the race dynamic and was as usual spun to white wash his defeat that day.

as i said, just check the fis official records, or if you have time the vid, sundby was falling back with each check point having THE ENTIRE COURSE WIDTH to himself. Just him and the trees on both sides. Particularly after he dropped krogh. if he was able to drop krogh attempting to close to ustiugov, he was fine physically. but not good enough to catch ustiugov offering a free ride to petter and eversen.

also, the blistering conditions affect MORE everyone, anyone not hidden behind someone's back. certainly ustiugov felt that to hide behind the eversen back in the blistering conditions was NOT going to distance sundby. thus the point i made - serhey took the lead and sustained it to achieve a race goal of dropping sundby b/c he was fed the splits.

again, the example was to suggest that he may decide to go it alone from the getgo since he may feel that 15 sec he is capable of sustaining. just as he did in canada.

in fact, i am sure provided his skis are working well, if he's destined to be ever caught, it wont happen until very late in the race. could be as late as in canada - last 1-2 kms. then, he'll be off the podium altogether.
 
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dramatic ! calle will be caught soon. ustiugov is nowhere to beseen. hellner and harvey are still holding out.

the sickest skier won again :mad:
 
Re:

python said:
dramatic ! calle will be caught soon. ustiugov is nowhere to beseen. hellner and harvey are still holding out.

the sickest skier won again :mad:


Very strange to see Halfvarsson lose that much in the second half of the race. I thought for sure he was going to hold a decent advantage all the way to the finish. Even more strange in what happened to Ustiugov. He seemed in excellent shape in the sprint and the 10km yesterday, but today, he didn't have a chance. He was caught and barely skied with the group for a km or so before completely falling off the map. Didn't feel good, so didn't want to risk anything?

Yes, the sick bearded man won again. Whatever...

Great race for Nilsson today. From 27th to 5th. A nice recovery from yesterday's poor race. Also good to see the Russian women performing again. Tchekaleva moved up to 6th and that's good news for her because she is generally a better skate skier. Diggins dropping down a few places isn't surprising.

I guess Bjoergen not getting on the podium is good news!!
 
So I just read that Ustiugov had bad skis. That's too bad, because under normal circumstances, he would have fought for the win. Hard to that when the skis don't work in a world class field on one of the toughest courses in the world. Two skate races in Davos next weekend, including a sprint, so he should feature in that one.
 
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Re: Re:

kingjr said:
Kokoso said:
That's exactly the ignorance I'm talking about. Imagine someone calling funny mistaking Swiss and Sweden. Fnny, huh?

This "confusing similar sounding countries is funny" premise sounds strange, anyway. Imagine that: you've said Slovenia ant thought Slovenia? Hahahaha...


Say what?
Sorry. Imagine that: you've said Slovenia but thought Slovakia. Very funny, isn't it? No, it isn't at all.
 
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Babikov was great, I'm happy for him. Fourcade too self-conscious on the last shooting, first shot went wrong than he got visibly nervous.

Gabiiiiiii, yes! What a weekend.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
kingjr said:
Kokoso said:
That was of course joke. Never would occure to me that someone can seriously believe that members of certain nation don't know what nation they belong to. Of course Czechs and Slovaks don't confuse themselves. They are two different nations, gee.

Ignorant seems to me that there are lot of people (if it's really true) who confuse Slovenians and Slovaks and even consider that funny mistake. Can you imagine some, say, German confusing, say, Norges and Swedes, or French and Italian, considering it normal and funny? Hardly I can imagine that.

If the names of the countries you mentioned were very similar, of course it would be funny. This is nothing to be upset about, really.
That's exactly the ignorance I'm talking about. Imagine someone calling funny mistaking Swiss and Sweden. Fnny, huh?

This "confusing similar sounding countries is funny" premise sounds strange, anyway. Imagine that: you've said Slovenia ant thought Slovenia? Hahahaha...

People mix up Austria and Australia sometimes, and it is pretty funny. I think you should lighten up a bit. It's Christmas! 'Tis the season to be jolly and all that, no?
 
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Re: Re:

Brullnux said:
Kokoso said:
kingjr said:
Kokoso said:
That was of course joke. Never would occure to me that someone can seriously believe that members of certain nation don't know what nation they belong to. Of course Czechs and Slovaks don't confuse themselves. They are two different nations, gee.

Ignorant seems to me that there are lot of people (if it's really true) who confuse Slovenians and Slovaks and even consider that funny mistake. Can you imagine some, say, German confusing, say, Norges and Swedes, or French and Italian, considering it normal and funny? Hardly I can imagine that.

If the names of the countries you mentioned were very similar, of course it would be funny. This is nothing to be upset about, really.
That's exactly the ignorance I'm talking about. Imagine someone calling funny mistaking Swiss and Sweden. Fnny, huh?

This "confusing similar sounding countries is funny" premise sounds strange, anyway. Imagine that: you've said Slovenia ant thought Slovenia? Hahahaha...

People mix up Austria and Australia sometimes, and it is pretty funny. I think you should lighten up a bit. It's Christmas! 'Tis the season to be jolly and all that, no?
I don't find it funny, Australia and Austria. Anyway I see difference between fact that someone confuses countries from time to time and fact that lot of people confuses two countries and someone considers that normal and funny because lot of people do that. I don't think people would consider funny and normal that lot of people confuse Australie and Austria, don't you think? But with Slovenia and Slovakia it's obviously different.

That I don't consider humorous something you do doesn't mean I should lighten up. Anyway it's always good to lighten up a bit even more, isn't it? :)
 
Re:

meat puppet said:
Didnt see the xc races, but heikkinen did well as I expected and so did pärmäkoski; both were the fastest on todays leg, respectively. Sundby winning is a bummer, sure, but Weng I don't mind actually.

Any tips for streams?
Pärmäkoski would have done better if she hadn't fallen just before the final uphill, she had the measure of Østberg on the climbs, although Ingvild may have outsprinted her in the stadium. Heidi should fill her boots while Johaug is suspended and Bjørgen's not at full strength... Kowa had a really good day today as expected, short skate races and sprints will never be her thing but she climbed from 45th or so to the top 20. Stadlober also really notable.
 
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
meat puppet said:
Didnt see the xc races, but heikkinen did well as I expected and so did pärmäkoski; both were the fastest on todays leg, respectively. Sundby winning is a bummer, sure, but Weng I don't mind actually.

Any tips for streams?
Pärmäkoski would have done better if she hadn't fallen just before the final uphill, she had the measure of Østberg on the climbs, although Ingvild may have outsprinted her in the stadium. Heidi should fill her boots while Johaug is suspended and Bjørgen's not at full strength... Kowa had a really good day today as expected, short skate races and sprints will never be her thing but she climbed from 45th or so to the top 20. Stadlober also really notable.


Kowalczyk's strength is definitely classic races, anything classic, sprint, short, middle, long distance. At her best, even skiathlons, long distance skate races (she even has a skate sprint win to her name) weren't that bad for her. That has completely changed since Sochi. I think the knee injuries she's had in the past and the foot injury just before Sochi has changed her approach and she's visibly not comfortable, not that she was ever super comfortable, but when you have injuries like that, you have to change certain aspects and it throws you out of your rhythm, sometimes for a long time. I also think that after Sochi she hasn't stressed too much, certainly not like she's done in the past. If there is something she will be targeting this year it would be the 10km classic in Lahti. No Johaug should help open things up, and if Kowalczyk is in good shape then, I give her every chance to be on the podium.

Parmakoski is really impressing so far. She started the season the way she ended last season, a great pursuit race. We'll see if she can keep it up. I certainly hope she does. The more people that challenge the Norwegian's, the better. Her classic technique is super steady and for someone that's not that tall, she gets a lot of reach and glide, and obviously her skis were working well. It's too bad she fell, because Oestberg would have had a tough time. Also good to see Nilsson recovering form yesterday and putting in, after Parmakoski, the performance of the day, moving from 27th to 5th.
 
So the one and lonely race of the good old days is coming up on Saturday. :cry:
Really looking forward to that one. Saddly, weather conditions will be sub minus degrees in the night and well above zero degrees with sun during the day. So this will most likely lead to a super fast race with small gaps. Sundby should be the heavy favorite unde rthis conditions. He excells when temperatures are above 0, he usually struggles when its really cold.
I always hope for tough winter conditions for the Davos race as this would make it much more fun to watch. After all, it's the last race where we can enjoy the good old battle of evrybody against himself for over an hour. With these fast conditions teh battle is a lot easier, of course.
Anyway let's be thankful this race still exists, although it's so sad and painful what they have done to XC skiing. :( :cry:
 
Denise Herrmann will start in the Biathlon World Cup tomorrow. She really managed to adap fast it seems. She won an IBU CUP two weeks ago. Of course her shooting wasn't the best but she absolutely destroyed everybody on the track, running circles around the competition. I am really curios how she will do against the world's best biathletes. I don't thin too many will be able to match her on the track.
 
Bavarianrider said:
Denise Herrmann will start in the Biathlon World Cup tomorrow. She really managed to adap fast it seems. She won an IBU CUP two weeks ago. Of course her shooting wasn't the best but she absolutely destroyed everybody on the track, running circles around the competition. I am really curios how she will do against the world's best biathletes. I don't thin too many will be able to match her on the track.
I'll keep an eye on her ski speed tomorrow. Really excited to see how she goes!
 
Bavarianrider said:
Denise Herrmann will start in the Biathlon World Cup tomorrow. She really managed to adap fast it seems. She won an IBU CUP two weeks ago. Of course her shooting wasn't the best but she absolutely destroyed everybody on the track, running circles around the competition. I am really curios how she will do against the world's best biathletes. I don't thin too many will be able to match her on the track.


Believe it or not, the competition in women's biathlon may be more weak than women's xc, and that's saying a lot, because the xc hasn't had the depth for years, so if Herrmann can improve her shooting to solid levels, she'll be winning WC's in no time.
 
BullsFan22 said:
Bavarianrider said:
Denise Herrmann will start in the Biathlon World Cup tomorrow. She really managed to adap fast it seems. She won an IBU CUP two weeks ago. Of course her shooting wasn't the best but she absolutely destroyed everybody on the track, running circles around the competition. I am really curios how she will do against the world's best biathletes. I don't thin too many will be able to match her on the track.


Believe it or not, the competition in women's biathlon may be more weak than women's xc, and that's saying a lot, because the xc hasn't had the depth for years, so if Herrmann can improve her shooting to solid levels, she'll be winning WC's in no time.
That's in respect of the IBU Cup, and it was a wind-affected race.

There's pretty good competition level in women's biathlon I think. A lot of viable race winners. Certainly much more than there are in XC.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dorin-Habert, Koukalová, Vitková, Dahlmeier, Preuss, Hildebrand, Eckhoff, Mäkäräinen, Pidhrushna, Dzhima, Wierer, Gasparin, Hauser, Bescond or Podchufarova win any given race, plus there are plenty who are more than podium-capable but might be a bit more of a surprise like Oberhofer, Hinz, Braisaz, Skardino, Olsbu, Birkeland, Crawford, Dunklee, Akimova, Guzik, Hammerschmidt, Gregorin or Yurlova.

In XC, I'm generally amazed if anybody not from Norway wins other than Stina in a sprint and maybe Kalla in a distance skate. And even then, among the Norwegians I'm amazed if anybody other than Bjørgen, Johaug, Weng (at least this season, after finally breaking that hex), Falla or Østberg wins.

Definitely the skiing levels in biathlon vary wildly (and there are certainly very few real strong skiers on the IBU Cup, because anybody who can shoot well but is lacking in speed can potentially get stuck there because they're achieving to their peak if they're hitting 90%+ but not fast enough for the World Cup, whereas a super-fast skier who misses lots of shots could feasibly be good enough for the World Cup if they have a good day with the rifle) but that's the point of a mixed-discipline sport. I think that women's biathlon has a pretty deep field, certainly more viable contenders for the frontline than in XC, and a LOT more variety in the countries as well, meaning that relays can actually be interesting (the men by contrast have lots of viable contenders for individual wins, but mostly concentrated into a handful of top nations who bogart all the relay podiums).

It's good for Herrmann to get her first World Cup start at Pokljuka though, the trails are tough there and the program (no Individual which penalises shooting more) will suit her too, which will help her adapt (she seems to have taken to it quicker than Evi did a few years ago, but then she's also younger and in her peak years) more than if she started at a venue where the shooting is more important and the gaps created by the trails are smaller, such as Nové Mesto or Antholz. Also, her specialism as an XC skier will be well suited to biathlon where she will get regular breaks - when Fourcade and Mäkäräinen have done XC races, they've tended to reach a threshold in the 15k (men)/10k (women) area. Martin Fourcade has posted times among the best at 7,5km only to fall away massively in the second half; Kaisa has said that the fact XC is a continuous effort rather than a series of concentrated efforts with short rest periods means that she tends to run out of steam similarly, though it's less noticeable in her forays into XC. She's managed a few World Cup top 10s, so I don't think the level is quite as poor as you make out, although the fact does remain that several of the fastest women of recent years are either retired (Berger, Neuner), absent for other reasons (Domracheva, who's due back in the New Year), or not as strong as they used to be for reasons of age (Mäkäräinen) or injury (Gössner). Herrmann hit 10/13 today in the Mixed Relay which is a good sign, but she hit 11/20 in Beitostølen.

21/33 is her overall shooting thus far, which is 11/16 in prone (69%) and 10/17 in standing (59%). This puts her a little way below Miriam Gössner's career average, who I think is a worthwhile comparison in terms of somebody known for being stupendously quick (indeed back before her injuries she was Germany's strongest performer at an XC World Championships, quicker than Herrmann, but nowadays I don't think that would be the case) but whose inaccuracy with the rifle (career 75% prone, 63% stand) has always held her back. She's also the main counter-argument to the idea I've seen mooted a few times that most higher level XC stars could win everything going in biathlon with 70%, because even at her best skiing-wise, when she was on the level to miss out on a medal in the XC World Championships by under one second, she still only won 3 races and barely scraped the top 10 overall.
 
I think a LOT of pieces need to fall into place for Gregorin to get on the podium these days. I can't be bothered right now to address the other names but I don't think the pool is that big.

Will be interesting to see whether 8/10 would be enough for Herrmann to have a chance to win.
 
8/10 might be, unless somebody who's a strong skier like Eckhoff, MDH or Kaisa hits all 10. But I don't think the difference in level between where Herrmann was in the XC field and the top skiers among biathletes is as big as some think.

I also feel that while there are many names that do need things to fall into place for them to make the podium, the nature of biathlon means that there's a much bigger chance of those things happening than in XC, and in women's XC, there may be many women who can make the top 10, but there's only a small handful who can reach the podium, most of whom come from the same country, plus the fact that a relay is actually a competition in biathlon without having several teams from the same country has to be considered too. Maybe it's the fact that I fixate on distance races, and women's distance racing has perhaps the shallowest field of realistic contenders this side of a Nordic Combined team event, but I really don't see more than a small handful of potential victors on any XC startlist, whereas I can see plenty of viable winners in biathlon owing to the volatility of many of the strongest skiers with the rifle.