Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[meat puppet]

Niskanen apparently had grip skis / "zeros" (no kick wax) and suboptimal glide.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

The short lap in Val di Fiemme just sucks, it took a thermonuclear Klaebo to create legit gaps here in 2022.

It have more or less every year created proper gaps on the womens side, especially the last two years when the women also did 15 km.

Last year it was 4 girls sprinting for it, but number 7 was half a minute behind. The year before Nepryayeva won «solo» and number 7 was 43 seconds behind.

From the lowest point to the highest point there is almost 3 minute with continuous effort, that is in normal conditions enough to force a real separation.

It’s not the most brutal course, but it’s hard enough to make separations among the women under normal conditions.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So we are going to have a Tour entirely settled by sprint bonus seconds and the Alpe Cermis hillclimb.

Unfortunately, that's basically the dream as far as FIS is concerned, because that makes for "balance". The fact that makes it easier for somebody from a market they're openly courting (hey, they need to replace those Russian audience numbers) to win is just a bonus.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

So we are going to have a Tour entirely settled by sprint bonus seconds and the Alpe Cermis hillclimb.

Unfortunately, that's basically the dream as far as FIS is concerned, because that makes for "balance". The fact that makes it easier for somebody from a market they're openly courting (hey, they need to replace those Russian audience numbers) to win is just a bonus.

I dont agree that the sprint bonus seconds have been as important as you imply. The sprint bonus seconds in Davos got very well washed away in the chasing start the following day.

The sprint bonus seconds in Toblach would’ve been a lot more worth if stage 3 was a mass start and not a chasing start also.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I dont agree that the sprint bonus seconds have been as important as you imply. The sprint bonus seconds in Davos got very well washed away in the chasing start the following day.

The sprint bonus seconds in Toblach would’ve been a lot more worth if stage 3 was a mass start and not a chasing start also.

But the thing is, the pursuit start was set by the sprint, so while the gaps may have been washed away, a mass start or an individual start would see gaps created by the skiing on the day, not artificially set by the sprint. The Toblach one is less of an issue because it was set on the sprint AND the individual start, but the Davos one was a complete joke.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I dont agree that the sprint bonus seconds have been as important as you imply. The sprint bonus seconds in Davos got very well washed away in the chasing start the following day.

The sprint bonus seconds in Toblach would’ve been a lot more worth if stage 3 was a mass start and not a chasing start also.

The overall format is just totally geared towards Klaebo. They removed the Alpe Cermis pursuit and all skating individual starts (where he's at his weakest) and have Bonus seconds only in Sprints and the Val di Fiemme mass start bonus sprint (pretty much his favourite race alongside the Ruka individual start).

The format is actually not that great for Diggins and Klaebo might have been in trouble against Amundsen and Krüger this year.

Give us an Alpe Cermis individual start, that would be interesting.

The skiers tried to make the best out of the route and the conditions, nobody but the FIS is to blame.

 

[Mayomaniac]

But the thing is, the pursuit start was set by the sprint, so while the gaps may have been washed away, a mass start or an individual start would see gaps created by the skiing on the day, not artificially set by the sprint. The Toblach one is less of an issue because it was set on the sprint AND the individual start, but the Davos one was a complete joke.

The Davos one was actually an incentive to bottle the sprint to save some energy.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Pursuits have to be gc pursuits, the simple stage pursuits only punish people for doing well the previous day.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

but the Davos one was a complete joke.

I agree that the concept of having a chasing start based on a sprint is a joke, but my view is that this format make the athletes doing well in sprint being the ones that are loosing time because of this stupid format.

Basically all chasing starts are first and foremost a loss for the athletes that are starting first. In Toblach Amundsen did an amazing effort, still he lost almost half a minute to Jan Thomas Jenssen who just sat in the pack not doing anything before the last kilometer.

I dont think chasing starts belongs in a tour, because they are the worst culprit when it comes to keeping the field close.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Pursuits have to be gc pursuits, the simple stage pursuits only punish people for doing well the previous day.

And GC pursuits punish the people for doing well in the overall...

If the Davos pursuit had been a GC pursuit, that would've been crazy unfair with such conditions and it basically would've nullified all four races before and not only the sprint the day before.

Pursuits needs to be removed from the tour.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Davos one was actually an incentive to bottle the sprint to save some energy.

when you look at the results of the women's sprint quali and the likes of Niskanen, Stadlober, Weng and Hennig just outside the top 30, that would appear to be true.

Not really sure how the format is not suited to Diggins when it rewards skate sprints, gives big bonuses for them, and the only meaningful classic after day 2 is in a mass start format on short loops with a long descent back into the stadium that helps her negate her losses.

 

[KZD]

I think there are three different reasons as to why cross country skiers are likely to be more careful to compete sick compared to biathletes:

1) First of all is a biathlon race less hard on the body. Because you need to be able to have steady legs to shoot on, the biathletes have to ski slightly more controlled on all loops before the last loop and this combined with the "rest" they get shooting, the load on the central system is a bit smaller than racing a cross country race.

2) Second is that if you are slightly sick and you believe that your body is reduced and can not perform at 100% level, the physical part is only one of two parts that is important in a biathlon race. If you are 30-35 seconds slower in the skiing part of a 10 km biathlon race you can still get a better result with good shooting than you do sometimes in 100% form but with bad shooting. In cross country when you are physically limited that will hinder you from reaching a "normal" result.

3) In biathlon the overall world cup result seems to be valued higher (not only the win, but also for top 3, top 5, top 10 etc) and the point system have always been pushing the athletes to take part in every race. In cross country they changed to a similar point system before last season, so this huge benefit from participating in basically every race. Some norwegian athletes in XC have complained about this new system because they feel it encourages atheletes to race when sick because you get quite a lot of points even from a bad race.

--

Then there is also huge differences between different countries. Norwegian and Swedish athletes have in general a much lower limit for when they are dropping out. So with a light cold a Norwegian or Swedish athlete will likely drop out, while a German, French, Swiss or Italian athlete with the same symptoms likely will start like nothing have happened. From the Central European point of view the Scandinavians are "weak", from a Scandinavian point of view the Central Europeans are stupid taking unnecessary risk with their health competing sick.

(this is of course generalized, there are also Scandinavian athletes that take risk and compete sick, like Jakob Ingebrigtsen did during athletics WC in the summer)

I agree with most of what you say but the athletes are the ones that should adapt themselves to the new points system not the opposite, so its expected that when a skier starts a stage race like the Tour de Ski apart from an injury or hard illness, they are going to finish it. Looking at the Norwegian team for instance, Slind left the Tour today due to an illness but Lotta Weng and Kalvå had already left the race before for instance not to mention Skistad that only started the Tour because of the sprint globe.

Speaking about biathlon, Doll is becoming a bit of a meme, its the second time that he wins a sprint race only to have a disappointing shooting performance in the pursuit and fall lots of positions. First World Cup win for Strømsheim who is looking like a real threat for the overall podium or maybe even more because Johannes Bø is looking far from his best.

 

[Mayomaniac]

when you look at the results of the women's sprint quali and the likes of Niskanen, Stadlober, Weng and Hennig just outside the top 30, that would appear to be true.

Not really sure how the format is not suited to Diggins when it rewards skate sprints, gives big bonuses for them, and the only meaningful classic after day 2 is in a mass start format on short loops with a long descent back into the stadium that helps her negate her losses.

On the other hand there are no skating individual starts for her, an in shape Diggins obliterates the rest in a skating individual start in Toblach.

 

[Mayomaniac]

And GC pursuits punish the people for doing well in the overall...

If the Davos pursuit had been a GC pursuit, that would've been crazy unfair with such conditions and it basically would've nullified all four races before and not only the sprint the day before.

Pursuits needs to be removed from the tour.

Gc pursuits are often a bit more tactical in the casing group, nobody wants to lead too much.
Imo a single 20km pursuit is fine, two are a bit too much.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Not really sure how the format is not suited to Diggins when it rewards skate sprints, gives big bonuses for them, and the only meaningful classic after day 2 is in a mass start format on short loops with a long descent back into the stadium that helps her negate her losses.

It's not like it's "not suited to Diggins". It's more like is not perfect for Diggins. For example would it be much better for her if the two chasing starts had been masstarts, because the bonuses from the sprint races would be worth much more with that setup.

Same for Klæbo the chasing starts would've been a big issue for him if he was here, meaning he'd probably start first in both and then being caught by Amundsen in both. So what he would've beaten Amundsen with in the sprints and the 10k in Toblach would've been more or less meaningless. It wouldn't be right to say that the format doesn't suit Klæbo, but it would be right to say it's not perfect for Klæbo.

 

[BigCoward]

Norwegian national championships are getting silly in the biathlon.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Justine Braisaz skiing to make sure Julia Simon can't get anywhere near her pockets.

 

[BigCoward]

Justine Braisaz skiing to make sure Julia Simon can't get anywhere near her pockets.

That is such a weird story.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It looked like it would be a dull race, but that last shooting and final lap were great. Simon is simply a beast in pursuits.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I cant see the group get separated with these snowy conditions.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Oh well, snowfall in a mass start race on the sorry ass 3.75 km course in Val di Boring. Might as well watch paint dry on a wall.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh well, snowfall in a mass start race on the sorry ass 3.75 km course in Val di Boring. Might as well watch paint dry on a wall.

This makes this morning's women's race look like Johan Olsson in 2013.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Oh well, snowfall in a mass start race on the sorry ass 3.75 km course in Val di Boring. Might as well watch paint dry on a wall.

Looks like I didn't miss anything by going to clean my driveway from the snow.

Meanwhile in the Fesa cup Mocellini won the 20km skating mass start by outsprinting Chiocchetti.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Cyril made the move and got beaten for it in the end.
Good race for Moch, Poromaa is such an enigma, one of the strongest of the day after shitting the bed in Davos (after running his mouth, like usual).

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Horrible race because of the conditions, but the final kilometer was exciting. What an attack by Faendrich, never thought he had anything like that in his topp box.