Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[thirteen]

A couple bottles of wine and you're at $885 quickly in a fancy restaurant.

like i said, it's been a long time since i've dined out this way in the States

good wine is much cheaper here, especially in France... not that there isn't mark-up, but not nearly to that extent

so does anybody know how many people were in the party?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

help me here, as it has been a long time since i ate out with a large party in the States...

Does anybody know how many were in the "Outside" party with TH?...if there was more than six, isn't gratuity automatically added?

Not known how many people where there. But if you're at a fancy restaurant and there are 8+ people at a large table drinking nice wine, $800 is not out of the question.

As to the gratuity. That is entirely up to the restaurant. There are no rules anywhere I know of. Though I suppose it is possible that Hamilton (or whomever was covering the tab) felt that a 15% tip had been added. It's equally possible that they weren't happy with the way TH was treated, and decided to stiff the place, which of course they had the right to do as well. Failure to tip sucks though, because you're not really punishing the owner, you're punishing the server, who very likely works hard and is not paid a high hourly wage. Then again, maybe the server was rude to them as well. Who knows.

 

[frenchfry]

like i said, it's been a long time since i've dined out this way in the States

good wine is much cheaper here, especially in France... not that there isn't mark-up, but not nearly to that extent

so does anybody know how many people were in the party?

I recently ate in a restaurant where the most expensive bottle on the wine list was €10,000. I saw from the restaurant reviews that Cache Cache has wine from the same region so likely expensive.

 

[thirteen]

Not known how many people where there. But if you're at a fancy restaurant and there are 8+ people at a large table drinking nice wine, $800 is not out of the question.

As to the gratuity. That is entirely up to the restaurant. There are no rules anywhere I know of. Though I suppose it is possible that Hamilton (or whomever was covering the tab) felt that a 15% tip had been added. It's equally possible that they weren't happy with the way TH was treated, and decided to stiff the place, which of course they had the right to do as well. Failure to tip sucks though, because you're not really punishing the owner, you're punishing the server, who very likely works hard and is not paid a high hourly wage. Then again, maybe the server was rude to them as well. Who knows.

most restaurants that i remember, especially the nice ones, do have a little clause on the menu -- gratuity will be added for parties of 6 or more.

i remember because i was high up in a Brit company and they thought tipping was ridiculous (not done there)... i used to be besides myself trying to explain that they had to tip here (in the U.S.) if it was a smaller group. more often than not, i topped up the tip out of pocket (they'd never reimburse) because they thought 5% was generous

i worked as both a waitress and bartender through college so i know how little they make and am always real sensitive to that. (on the flip side, my boyfriend always thinks i over-tip here -- and sometimes even the servers do -- i smile and say i'm American )

anyways, this is just the part of the story that bothered me most as being odd.

i can see Larner warning LA (as she does divorcées). i can see LA being his arrogant *** self and still going. i can see TH asking to take it outside (thank god he had already visited the restroom!) to the relative safety of friends... but the party being banned?

was it only TH or everybody there? this is what strikes me as disingenuous or overblown... silly, i know, but it really bugs me... it's just perplexing.

 

[thirteen]

I recently ate in a restaurant where the most expensive bottle on the wine list was €10,000. I saw from the restaurant reviews that Cache Cache has wine from the same region so likely expensive.

i guess i don't go to the right restaurants then

 

[euanli]

i remember because i was high up in a Brit company and they thought tipping was ridiculous (not done there)... i used to be besides myself trying to explain that they had to tip here (in the U.S.) if it was a smaller group. more often than not, i topped up the tip out of pocket (they'd never reimburse) because they thought 5% was generous

site note: Brits do tip. Even stingey aberdonians like myself. Though we don't understanding tipping a bar tender in the slightest.

 

[thirteen]

site note: Brits do tip. Even stingey aberdonians like myself. Though we don't understanding tipping a bar tender in the slightest.

this was about ten years ago (and they were from England) and they did not understand the 15%-20% standard in the U.S. where the wait staff get peanuts for wages and live or die by the tips.

(and, hey, i live with a glaswegian -- he tips too but doesn't at a bar )

 

[Square-pedaller]

this was about ten years ago (and they were from England) and they did not understand the 15%-20% standard in the U.S. where the wait staff get peanuts for wages and live or die by the tips.

(and, hey, i live with a glaswegian -- he tips too but doesn't at a bar )

And I'm English ... and in the UK would normally tip 10% in restaurants and for taxis (but less if the service has been noticeably bad). Your blanket statement that tipping in Britain is "not done there" is false (and, as far as I know, not even generally true).

If I'm elsewhere I would ask whoever I was with (from that place) how much to tip. Like most of these things, there is as much variation within nationalities as between them in how people behave, and how aware they are that customs may differ between countries.

 

[thirteen]

And I'm English ... and in the UK would normally tip 10% in restaurants and for taxis (but less if the service has been noticeably bad). Your blanket statement that tipping in Britain is "not done there" is false (and, as far as I know, not even generally true).

If I'm elsewhere I would ask whoever I was with (from that place) how much to tip. Like most of these things, there is as much variation within nationalities as between them in how people behave, and how aware they are that customs may differ between countries.

please, i did not mean to make it a blanket statement as to an entire nationality. it was my own experience with a stingy group of guys and this is what they told me. my boss was a tight-wad, regardless of where he was from.

i apologise for anybody i offended -- truly! nor did not mean to take this so far off-topic. my fault completely. i am sorry.

i just was bugged about the banning and had hoped someone could shed light on the matter.

 

[pmcg76]

please, i did not mean to make it a blanket statement as to an entire nationality. it was my own experience with a stingy group of guys and this is what they told me. my boss was a tight-wad, regardless of where he is was from.

i apologise for anybody i offended -- truly! nor did not mean to take this so far off-topic. my fault completely. i am sorry.

i just was bugged about the banning and was hoped someone could shed light on the matter.

Maybe we need a seperate thread on tipping. Like the scene from Resorvoir dogs

Having worked in bar/restaurants in the US/UK/Ireland and a few other places, I would say I have a good overview. The US is of course minimum 15% and yes the waiters are paid crap wages but the tips in the US are unbelievable. Some weeks I would pull in $1000(tax free) and that was 10 years ago, how many people doing professional work pull in that kind of money in a week? I know I have never earned that amount of money in any of the jobs I have worked in since then.

In the UK/Europe its accepted but not obligatory to tip between 5-10% in a restaurant, no need to tip a bartender at all. Of course lots of people never tip regardless of service standard. Still when people go to the US and find out how much they have to tip, they find it crazy. A few years ago I visited New York with a Belgium girl and when it came to leaving a tip, she refused to believe we had to leave as much as we did, 20%.

To be honest, even though I benefited from it, I find tipping US style as strange. Go to the bar, get a drink and you have to leave a tip yet go the supermarket and you dont have to tip the checkout worker who usually does a lot more than hand you a drink. Weird.

So back to Lance.........

 

[Square-pedaller]

i apologise for anybody i offended -- truly!

No offence taken

National differences are fascinating but also problematic: I'm sure they do exist, but there's also a lot of variation within nationalities. I also suspect that I occasionally stereotype people however much I would like to think I don't

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

BAck on topic please. Any futher tipping discussion, open a new thread in the Cafe.

Susan

 

[Cimacoppi49]

The Outside Setup

Over on Usenet, rbr, there is increasing speculation, fueled in part by Andrew Coggan raising the matter as a "question," that this whole incident was an Outside Magazine set up. The rbr Fanboys are jumping on it like sharks going after chum. Very funny.

 

[thehog]

Over on Usenet, rbr, there is increasing speculation, fueled in part by Andrew Coggan raising the matter as a "question," that this whole incident was an Outside Magazine set up. The rbr Fanboys are jumping on it like sharks going after chum. Very funny.

any chance you could cut ' n' paste in a few comments?

need a laugh.

 

[MacRoadie]

Over on Usenet, rbr, there is increasing speculation, fueled in part by Andrew Coggan raising the matter as a "question," that this whole incident was an Outside Magazine set up. The rbr Fanboys are jumping on it like sharks going after chum. Very funny.

I suppose then that we should expect him rolling in here any time now...

 

[breakaway]

Don't misunderstand me. Cache Cache was not a formal appearance, but a run of the mill everyday outting (arranged or not, you get my point) where he spouted off amongst a peer. An egomaniac, narcissistic, superstar athlete is an egomaniac, narcissistic, superstar athlete. They're a dime a dozen in society, found in every sport, and you can't change their internal make up. They're brought up that way and such antics are part of the culture.

That said, I was referring to the more formalistic appearances. The platform, stump speeches if you will. He's still human (allegedly ). He's still an arrogant male, with perhaps more testosterone running through his veins than the average Joe . One only knows what all those drugs do to add to his behavior at any given time, coupled with the possibility of having a few drinks under his belt at Cache Cache.

I think it was Ricara who hit the nail on the head. Many pro-atheletes aren't exactly Einstein. They focused all of their time and energy on athletics afterall. So, they're only as smart as those they surround themselves with. Like a few have pointed out, GWB is yet another fine example of this.

Another great example is LeBron James. He started out with excellent potential. Not a bright guy and no educated but had great advisers initially. Then he decided to give his stupid high school buddies jobs, to bring them along to the high life. Now, he says or does something stupid just about every day and his "product" has suffered for it accordingly.

We can agree to disagree, but my bet's on LA being well-seasoned and knowing when to shut up and listen to his advisers when it counts; and it doesn't ever count more than when your in a federal court of law on criminal charges. He won't take the stand. OJ had a better chance of taking the stand, and that didn't happen either!

Arrogant, cocky, hot-headed, and impulsive? Absolutely. Stupid? No. Say what you want about the guy and hate him for what he's done, but you don't get away with it for this long by being stupid. He's sly like a fox (and had some help along the way).

He definitely has always thought he is above the law though, and that is his achille's heel. Always thought he could buy and bully his way out of everything and that is finally catching up with him. But, I am not convinced that it will be pursued even now though.

 

[Race Radio]

Some people are giving Armstrong's team of advisers way to much credit. For years he has surrounded himself with enablers, not advisers. It is only in recent months that he has brought in some independents....and he is clearly not listening to them.

I have had people that are far closer to the situation then you or I say that Armstrong's biggest weakness is he has for years surrounded himself with people that give him very poor advice. He was able to get away with it when the myth was strong and the media was stupid. We see now that the same tactics he has used for years do not work, the result is he is falling apart in a very rapid manner.

 

[Polish]

Over on Usenet, rbr, there is increasing speculation, fueled in part by Andrew Coggan raising the matter as a "question," that this whole incident was an Outside Magazine set up. The rbr Fanboys are jumping on it like sharks going after chum. Very funny.

It is very hard to BELIEVE that Tyler and Outside Magazine would be able to "setup" Lance.
I mean c'mon, think about that.

Lance "setting up" Outside Mag and Tyler into THINKING they were setting up Lance is more like it. Reverse Sting Operation.

The trap is set.
tic toc tic.

 

[Stingray34]

It is very hard to BELIEVE that Tyler and Outside Magazine would be able to "setup" Lance.
I mean c'mon, think about that.

Lance "setting up" Outside Mag and Tyler into THINKING they were setting up Lance is more like it. Reverse Sting Operation.

The trap is set.
tic toc tic.

If I'm crowned king will you be my fool?

 

[breakaway]

Some people are giving Armstrong's team of advisers way to much credit. For years he has surrounded himself with enablers, not advisers. It is only in recent months that he has brought in some independents....and he is clearly not listening to them.

I have had people that are far closer to the situation then you or I say that Armstrong's biggest weakness is he has for years surrounded himself with people that give him very poor advice. He was able to get away with it when the myth was strong and the media was stupid. We see now that the same tactics he has used for years do not work, the result is he is falling apart in a very rapid manner.

Well, we can be talking about two very different things here. It depends on what the goal and the advice is, right? If your definition of good advice is "don't dope, do the honorable thing, come clean that you doped, etc.", then yeah, I'd say you'd think he has either been given poor advice along the way, has been surrounded by enablers or hasn't listened to the advice he's been given.

But, I'm speaking strictly from a PR and legal perspective. As to what you say when you're in the media, your choice of words to hopefully keep you out of trouble and keep your image clean, etc. So, you might be speaking more about morale and ethical advisers, whereas I am speaking more of legal and PR advisers? Sadly, two very different things.

 

[MacRoadie]

Tyler into THINKING they were setting up Lance is more like it. Reverse Sting Operation.

The trap is set.
tic toc tic.

So, you are suggesting that the witness tampering was a far more intricate and orchestrated endeavor, with significantly greater premeditation.

Armstrong not only tampered with a federal witness, but rather than simply avoiding Hamilton he created a complex "trap" within which he manipulated Hamilton into a confrontation.

"No your honor. Rather than avoiding the witness, I created a complex trap wherein I actually ensured a confrontation with the witness".

Got it.

 

[breakaway]

So, you are suggesting that the witness tampering was a far more intricate and orchestrated endeavor, with significantly greater premeditation.

Armstrong not only tampered with a federal witness, but rather than simply avoiding Hamilton he created a complex "trap" within which he manipulated Hamilton into a confrontation.

"No your honor. Rather than avoiding the witness, I created a complex trap wherein I actually ensured a confrontation with the witness".

Got it.

All the more reason he's taking the stand counselor, right? Just imagine that cross. Now all we need is an allegation that a lab got hacked into and the soap opera will be complete....oh wait, that already happened in another case. I say Casey Anthhony takes the stand before LA....and I don't think that'll happen either.

 

[thehog]

Some people are giving Armstrong's team of advisers way to much credit. For years he has surrounded himself with enablers, not advisers. It is only in recent months that he has brought in some independents....and he is clearly not listening to them.

I have had people that are far closer to the situation then you or I say that Armstrong's biggest weakness is he has for years surrounded himself with people that give him very poor advice. He was able to get away with it when the myth was strong and the media was stupid. We see now that the same tactics he has used for years do not work, the result is he is falling apart in a very rapid manner.

“If you have just won the Tour for the second time and you are the king of Spain, it is normal that all stories are all right. His career has barely begun. Let us talk again in about fifteen years.”

“So many dirty things, unbelievable. Complete bull****, pieces of slime, fat lies.”

“First, this is not true. Secondly, it is easy to prove. You only have to grab the phone and call the bicycle manufacturer Trek. I understand that the Spanish media stands up for their hero, but it was so untrue what was printed. Come on, at the end of the day as a journalist, you f**king do proclaim the truth."

"eight of the nine riders who rode the Tour, have gone away. To another team. Even his roommate."

“I would have long since looked in the mirror. I would never let that happen. Never. If I had to change myself to prevent it, then I would do that. If they needed more money, I would do it. I would do anything for them. "

"But Contador is totally different from me. It is very difficult,” the seven-time Tour winner continued. “He knows no better. He is a Spanish guy who is always in the same pueblo (district) resident. He has his friends, family, the street where he grew up, his country, his people. A great athlete like him must employ individuals who support him and have patience with him. But he is surrounded by yes-men.”

 

[Deagol]

Assuming there will be an actual trial; do people here think it might be televised like OJ? (do they still do that?) Is televising a trial likely to help one party over another?
I would love to see some of the testimony.

 

[acoggan]

Over on Usenet, rbr, there is increasing speculation, fueled in part by Andrew Coggan raising the matter as a "question," that this whole incident was an Outside Magazine set up.

Why the quotes? I phrased the suggestion as a question merely to indicate that I have no idea whether the suggestion is true or not.