Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[theswordsman]

I'll add links for late arrivals, as I've only read back six or so pages myself. Well done to Race Radio and others who have been breaking the story for some time. I've been following the "Storm Of Cycling" stories on Tuttobiciweb, with the latest being their coverage of the La Gazzetta story that was in the print version only. Could one of our Italian friends please give us an interpretation of the last paragraph. When I read it myself this morning, 15 million Euros didn't impress me, but some other articles based on this said the 15 million was an annual amount. That would include payments from current clients. The other interesting bit for me was that Novitsky & the Americans weren't really on the trail of Ferrari until the meeting at Interpol in Lyons.

The ramifications of the international system led by Michele Ferrari would generate a turnover of around 15 million. Figures scary, never seen before. That can be explained by the number of people involved: certainly more than a hundred. The participants include attorneys, Italians and foreigners, who proposed to their clients a complete package to get them to choose that doctor in particular, a Swiss lawyer and Swiss bank account from which to start the payments.
Le ramificazioni internazionali del sistema con a capo Michele Ferrari genererebbero un fatturato di circa 15 milioni. Cifre spaventose, mai viste prima. Che si spiegano con il numero delle persone coinvolte: sicuramente oltre un centinaio. Tra loro anche procuratori, italiani e stranieri, che proponevano ai loro assistiti un pacchetto completo per convincerli a scegliere quel medico: in particolare, avvocato svizzero e conto corrente svizzero dal quale far partire i pagamenti.

This was the biggie from the Velonews article, which also said that forensic auditors from the U.S, are working with Italian authorities and Swiss auditors to study the transactions.

La Gazzetta’s Luca Gialanella reported that U.S. Food and Drug Administration criminal division investigator Jeff Novitzky has spent time working with prosecutors in Italy examining records of transactions, some of which date back to years when Ferrari served as a consultant to the former U.S. Postal Service cycling team and its star rider Lance Armstrong.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...orities-examine-armstrong-ferrari-ties_169668

For people still hoping to see "fizzle" - the best news I read on this story the past week was that the Swiss police have been watching Ferrari for a couple of years. So even though Gunderson wasn't under investigation at the time, he would have been watched when meeting with Ferrari during that time. They were able to point out to the Italian authorities when and where the meetings took place, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to expect photos and video and maybe wire taps.

The tens of miilions figure has me really intrigued, because I haven' been following the talk of money laundering. I figured the fifteen million Euros was for doping activities of the thirty riders or hundred people involved. /but this relationship and enterprise had a lot of years to evolve and grow.

Anyway, thanks again, guys.

 

[Granville57]

The other interesting bit for me was that Novitsky & the Americans weren't really on the trail of Ferrari until the meeting at Interpol in Lyons.

That struck me as well. The VN article doesn't mention that but the CN article does.

The US-based investigators apparently knew little of the relationship between Dr Ferrari and Armstrong when they first met with European investigators last July at the Interpol headquarters in Lyon France. However things changed quickly as the investigation developed.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-dello-sport-reveals-more-details-about-dr-ferrari-investigation

Is something getting lost in translation here?
How would it be possible that Novitsky & Co. only "knew little of the relationship" in July 2010? Unless they mean the real specific, verifiable and incriminating parts.

 

[BroDeal]

The participants include attorneys, Italians and foreigners, who proposed to their clients a complete package to get them to choose that doctor in particular, a Swiss lawyer and Swiss bank account from which to start the payments.

Tony Rominger: rider manager, Swiss, former client of Ferrari.

I wonder what package he offered to Evans.

 

[D-Queued]

La Gazetta endorsed as a source by Lance himself

One thing that the fanboys may not criticize is the source of this information.

As it turns out, Lance has endorsed La Gazzetta as the definite source of information about himself and Ferrari.

From the SCA deposition:

Q. Okay. Well, there have been allegations that you tried to either conceal or not disclose your training relationship with Doctor Ferrari. Are those untrue?

A. Those are untrue. I've never denied that. That's been common knowledge since 1996.

Q. Now, how was it common knowledge in 1996? I mean, what --

A. It was written.

Q. Okay. Written where?

A. In La Gazzetta

How Lance continually becomes the source of his own undoing verges on the comical.

Dave.

 

[Stingray34]

One thing that the fanboys may not criticize is the source of this information.

As it turns out, Lance has endorsed La Gazzetta as the definite source of information about himself and Ferrari.

From the SCA deposition:



How Lance continually becomes the source of his own undoing verges on the comical.

Dave.

Well spotted! Like your work.

 

[Stingray34]

Recent events shed light on Gunderson's decision to retire early. Too much heat, reduced access to Ferrari.

The Gila and the GT of Cali won't be the same without him and his travelling circus of euphoria. Phil and Paul can be counted on to carry the flame, though.

 

[Stingray34]

Tony Rominger: rider manager, Swiss, former client of Ferrari.

I wonder what package he offered to Evans.

Sadly, this is probably the real reason for Evan's renaissance.

 

[python]

didn't he also admit in the same testimony, after much evasion, that he also had an exclusive contract with dr. evil ?

if memory serves, he even muttered something about the size of the payments.

if so, here's the clue as to what trail novi has been pursuing rowing down one of the streams discharging it's waters into that 15 million pond.

dave would be perfect for the task

 

[webvan]

Sadly, this is probably the real reason for Evan's renaissance.

Wow that would be bad...

Recent events shed light on Gunderson's decision to retire early. Too much heat, reduced access to Ferrari.

You mean his second retirement? Looks like he was just making a fool of himself hence the reason for stopping. If you're referring to the first one I don't see any particular uncovered heat in 2005?

 

[Oldman]

That struck me as well. The VN article doesn't mention that but the CN article does.


Is something getting lost in translation here?
How would it be possible that Novitsky & Co. only "knew little of the relationship" in July 2010? Unless they mean the real specific, verifiable and incriminating parts.

I think "knew little of the relationship" means the relationship itself was less compelling than where the money was going. That Interpol, Swiss and Italian authorities were finally interested offered Novitsky's investigatory evidence the time to be the catalyst. How would it look for those Euro agencies to be pursuing a specific long-term investigation of fraud and money laundering only to be beaten to the Press by an American? For those looking for a fizzle you will be getting SIZZLE as every law enforcement agency that needs good press in a bad economy piles on. Hopefully it won't be an uncoordinated free-for-all or some serious bad players might slip through the net pleaing their cases.
How does Lance come out of it looking good? Not possible as he looks pretty bad now. More truth=more reality for Tex.

 

[jimmypop]

Sadly, this is probably the real reason for Evan's renaissance.

Thomas Frischknecht once said that Evans wouldn't even eat a Snickers bar.

I'm not sure about Evans. He was a phenomenon even in 1996, when then MTB worlds traveled to Australia.

 

[thehog]

Does too much good cover tax evasion?

 

[thehog]

Does too much good cover tax evasion?

The VeloNews comments are funny. Apparently too much not only covers dope use but you don't have to pay any tax either. *** edited by mod ***

 

[Nick777]

This is getting more interesting by the day. Looking forward to chatting with my buddy on our Saturday ride tomorrow morning. He is an unabashed LA fan, who is starting to see the truth but still doesnt want to face it.

 

[Race Radio]

That struck me as well. The VN article doesn't mention that but the CN article does.


Is something getting lost in translation here?
How would it be possible that Novitsky & Co. only "knew little of the relationship" in July 2010? Unless they mean the real specific, verifiable and incriminating parts.

This is incorrect. They were very aware of the relationship.

 

[Berzin]

The problem Armstrong has is that even if he is not charged while others are, his massive use of drugs will still be revealed.

How could he not be charged, given his massive drug use? The money trail will reveal this.

Let's be clear that the money we are talking about was for the purchase of PED's. The rest of the fees incurred by Armstrong and other riders who employed Ferrari were more than likely for guarantees against competition during particular races, and the doctor's expertise in dodging positive tests. The training programs were last on the list of priorities.

This is what I think.

Feel free to correct my assumptions if anyone thinks differently.

 

[thehog]

This is incorrect. They were very aware of the relationship.

Lance wants the good old days back when VeloNews wrote puffy pieces of poo.

http://mobile.twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/61172958894370816

 

[Granville57]

Lance wants the good old days back when VeloNews wrote puffy pieces of poo.

http://mobile.twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/61172958894370816

Perhaps he means to say that the figures in the article were grossly underestimated?

I still can't believe he jumps into the fray from his lofty perch.

 

[D-Queued]

didn't he also admit in the same testimony, after much evasion, that he also had an exclusive contract with dr. evil ?

if memory serves, he even muttered something about the size of the payments.

if so, here's the clue as to what trail novi has been pursuing rowing down one of the streams discharging it's waters into that 15 million pond.

dave would be perfect for the task

Hi Python,

I have always been curious about the supposedly exclusive nature of the relationship.

First, we know that Simeoni was a client for at least part of the time that Lance was also a client of Ferrari.

Second, in the SCA testimony there are pages of questions about whether Lance had recommended, introduced, or otherwise promoted the services of Ferrari to numerous teammates.

Among others, both Tyler and Frankie are cited as is Frankie's SCA deposition. While Lance has a terrible memory, he does offer that Tyler may have been 'tested' by Ferrari. He also states that he encouraged teammates to get a better 'traning program'.

With respect to his teammates:

Q. Okay. Did you recommend to any of your teammates that they should use Doctor Ferrari?

A. I recommend that they all train smarter.

(Very interesting and leading answer, especially given the 200+ I don't knows in the deposition. Also important to note that 'training programs' is a commonly used expression for doping.)

Q. When you say train smarter, tell me what you mean.

A. Use better training programs, train smarter. I don't -- I don't know how else to describe that. They can go wherever they want to go and use whoever they want to use.

(Q: Would that have included one Dr. Fuentes?)

With respect to Tyler:

Q. Okay. And do you know if during that time period he used Doctor Ferrari for training?

A. I don't know. I know that they knew each other. I'm sure that Michele would have tested him.

With respect to concerns over the magnitude of the payments, I cannot find a reference. Here is one relevant portion:

Q. Well, would you -- do you remember actually writing checks to Doctor Ferrari, for example? You personally?

A. I don't -- I don't recall.

Q. Well, do you know if Mr. Stapleton wrote checks on your behalf?

A. I don't recall. I doubt it.

(Thereby confirming that Lance wrote the checks himself)

Q. Can anyone write a check on your behalf for your money, other than you?

A. Probably.

Q. You may want to run that down.

A. Probably.

Q. Okay. Is there -- is there a business account or relationship that Doctor Ferrari would have been paid from rather than from your personal funds?

A. I don't think so.

(Confirming Ferrari paid by Lance personally)

Q. Okay. Can you offer me any guidance or information as to how you paid Doctor Ferrari? By check? By wire? From you personally? From --

A. Perhaps all of the above.

(Confirming Ferrari paid by Lance personally)

Q. And when you say perhaps, do you have any recollection as to how you paid Doctor Ferrari?

A. All of the above.

(Confirming Ferrari paid by Lance personally)

Q. Check, wire, cash?

A. Not cash.

(The knowledge of that confirming Ferrari paid by Lance personally)

Q. Okay. But either by check and/or by wire?

A. Yeah. Well, it would have had to have been.

(Confirming Ferrari paid by Lance personally)

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

That is truly one of the great exchanges of the entire deposition.

Re: exclusivity

It is my understanding that LA was to have an "exclusive" relationship in regards to his direct competitors, i.e. only those riders that posed a threat to the podium.

Will search for links...

 

[python]

Hi Python,

I have always been curious about the supposedly exclusive nature of the relationship.

First, we know that Simeoni was a client for at least part of the time that Lance was also a client of Ferrari.

Second, in the SCA testimony there are pages of questions about whether Lance had recommended, introduced, or otherwise promoted the services of Ferrari to numerous teammates.

Among others, both Tyler and Frankie are cited as is Frankie's SCA deposition. While Lance has a terrible memory, he does offer that Tyler may have been 'tested' by Ferrari. He also states that he encouraged teammates to get a better 'traning program'.

With respect to his teammates:


With respect to Tyler:



With respect to concerns over the magnitude of the payments, I cannot find a reference. Here is one relevant portion:



Dave.

thanks dave for your research !

since i was curious, i went back and read the deposition...around the page 110 or 111 (i speak from memory since i dont have the page in front of me atm) texas said something like this (paraphrasing several questions):

'less than a million and cumulatively a 6-digit number'

here we got the essence of the money novi is chasing.

 

[Granville57]

Re: exclusivity

It is my understanding that LA was to have an "exclusive" relationship in regards to his direct competitors, i.e. only those riders that posed a threat to the podium.

Will search for links...

Many bales of media hay had been made questioning Armstrong's continuing relationship with Ferarri. Many observers...wondered why Armstrong kept Ferrari on exclusive contract (Ferrari can work with other riders, provided they are not Tour contenders)

-Lance Armstrong's War. Page 113

Google Books

 

[D-Queued]

Thomas Frischknecht once said that Evans wouldn't even eat a Snickers bar.

I'm not sure about Evans. He was a phenomenon even in 1996, when then MTB worlds traveled to Australia.

Does he have a nut allergy, or is it that the ingredients don't include his favored substances?

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hi Python,

I have always been curious about the supposedly exclusive nature of the relationship.

First, we know that Simeoni was a client for at least part of the time that Lance was also a client of Ferrari.

Second, in the SCA testimony there are pages of questions about whether Lance had recommended, introduced, or otherwise promoted the services of Ferrari to numerous teammates.

Among others, both Tyler and Frankie are cited as is Frankie's SCA deposition. While Lance has a terrible memory, he does offer that Tyler may have been 'tested' by Ferrari. He also states that he encouraged teammates to get a better 'traning program'.

With respect to his teammates:


With respect to Tyler:



With respect to concerns over the magnitude of the payments, I cannot find a reference. Here is one relevant portion:



Dave.

Careful there with the exclusive arrangement.

In Dan Coyles book Ferrari lists off his GT winners and said 6 TdFs (in early 2004, LA had won 5)- it is likely that Pantani was a customer until Giro 99.
My view is that LA made the arrangement then - and it also covered his teammates, who had to pay for it themselves.
EG; both Tyler & Landis were Ferrari customers - but when they left USPS they went with Fuentes & Del Moral respectively.

Also, Frankie was not a Ferrari customer - he bought and administered his own EPO, in fact LA berated FA as being too tight or mean to use Ferrari.

 

[D-Queued]

thanks dave for your research !

since i was curious, i went back and read the deposition...around the page 110 or 111 (i speak from memory since i dont have the page in front of me atm) texas said something like this (paraphrasing several questions):

'less than a million and cumulatively a 6-digit number'

here we got the essence of the money novi is chasing.

Hi Python,

Good memory. Bottom of page 110 & top of 111:

Q. Do you think it's in excess of a million dollars?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Is it -- certainly, it's in the range of six figures, is it not?

A. Over the years, perhaps. But I don't recall.

Underscoring its importance, Lance's relationship with Ferrari is the primary subject of pages 38-81 of the deposition, and 110-113, and again on 130 out of the 133 total deposition pages (actual document is 142 pages). It is easily the greatest single focus. (it also makes searching for specific quotes difficult...)

Lance does confirm that their relationship began before the Cancer. This does contradict many other public statements, but Lance claims it was public knowledge since at least 1996. Gorski testified he didn't know about the relationship until 2000.

A press release/public statement was made in 2001 to pre-empt the article by David Walsh detailing the relationship.

Q. Okay. How often were you seeing or visiting with Doctor Ferrari prior to your cancer treatment?

A. I don't know. Not much.

Q. A few times a year, for example?

A. A few times a year.

That relationship continued until at least 2003:

Q. Okay. Fair enough. How frequently did you go see Doctor Ferrari between the '99 and 2003 time period?

A. Not very often.

Q. Okay. A few times a year? Six times a year? Ten times a year?

A. Maybe a few times a year.

Dave.