Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[kurtinsc]

You might want a second opinion.

That doesn't qualify.

If he slugged him, it would. Verbal altercations do not. Physical assualt is the measurement that psychotherapists use on that particular item... not verbal.

The cyclist who whacked the other one with his wheel in the tour would be an action that you'd expect to see if Armstrong was a sociopath. Not just yelling or threatening. Or that other cyclist who kicked a spectator. Or the Badger getting off his bike and slugging protesters in the road.

Look... I know it's not all that important in the grand scheme of things, but he simply doesn't fit the profile to be a sociopath. He's a narcissist... he hits that nail on the head.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

One thing that bothers me is when people try to label Lance as a psychopath or sociopath. And it's a silly thing to be bothered about as it's essentially meaningless.. but having three therapists/psychiatrists in the family (including my wife) and having to sit around the table listening to their armchair discussions, I've had to educate myself on the subject of mental illness to some degree.

He's not a sociopath/psychopath (anti-social personality disorder). He doesn't get in physical fights. He does plan ahead. He hasn't had issues with sustaining consistent work. He's not reckless about his own safety.

He doesn't fit the DSM definition for the disorder. Based on public knowledge of his behaviors, he seems to fit Narcissistic personality disorder.

What does the DSM say about that?

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance... check.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love... not all of them... but several of these fit.
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)... not sure... hard to tell from public information.
4. Requires excessive admiration... check.
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations... check.
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends... if the stories are true this is a big YES.
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others... not 100% sure but seems to be an accurate portrayal.
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her... more the latter then the former, but yep.
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes... ya think?


Obviously being a narcissist doesn't sound as menacing as being a psycopath or sociopath. But it's what he is.

Not reckless about own satety. Well, besides that pro riders are to a certain point, just imagine he gave up the less side effecting chemo so he could keep on racing. And thus planning ahead well of time. Plus taking all the risks with Doping products and risky blood infusions... for me that´s very reckless...

May not physical fights, but psychological fights. A lot of them as we all know. That´s where all those enemies come from...

Lacks empathy. He seems to have none at all. The No. 1 Point in identifying psychopaths.

In the end: May he suffers from both sicknesses. Many psychos do.

 

[sniper]

Sorry for double posting:

http://www.facts4lance.com/

his defence is turning into a sorry-assed story. X not credible, Y not credible, McQuaid credible...

 

[Oldman]

What is the current headcount of "proven" liars, according to the ArmstRRRonk camp?

I was just about to post on my fb wall "After Floyd Landis, Frankie Andreau, Simeoni,..."
Then I realized I will most certainly miss a couple of guys to correctly finish (tongue-in-cheek) with
"...now his former team colleague Tyler Hamilton is being discredited by Lance Armstrong and his team of spin doctors and lawyers."

Could the Clinic-crowd please help me to fill the dots?

It's old news but there are former USPS players that Armstrong has "partnered" with in touring businesses, etc. Unless those financial arrangements are very compelling those guys will be telling a Grand Jury a similar story.

 

[D-Queued]

That doesn't qualify.

If he slugged him, it would. Verbal altercations do not. Physical assualt is the measurement that psychotherapists use on that particular item... not verbal.

The cyclist who whacked the other one with his wheel in the tour would be an action that you'd expect to see if Armstrong was a sociopath. Not just yelling or threatening. Or that other cyclist who kicked a spectator. Or the Badger getting off his bike and slugging protesters in the road.

Look... I know it's not all that important in the grand scheme of things, but he simply doesn't fit the profile to be a sociopath. He's a narcissist... he hits that nail on the head.

Kurt, you bring up and interesting consideration about narcissm versus sociopaty.

However, no one 'trait' is a pre-requisite for a DSM diagnosis. Physical violence is not a go/no-go on APD.

Now, have we seen phycical bullying - yes. How about leaning over to bump the spectator after one of the stages?

And suggesting that Lance is not reckless is absurd. Just watch his twitter feed.

Is the Simeoni intimidation narcissm or sociopathic?

Lance is a bully. Always has been.

Indicated by three or more of the following:
1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2.deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3.impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
4.irritability and aggression, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5.reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7.lack of remorse, as indicated by indifference to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

He only needs three. Hard not to see a fit on #1 (isn't that what this is all about?), 2 (Lance will cooperate with investigation), 7 (this f*cking jersey's mine). That is three, and that is all that is needed. And, those three are distinct from narcissm.

Lance to Floyd: Run like you stole something.

However, in addition:
On #3 see Twitter.
On #4, see spectator. (and how much does sexual aggression also fit this category?)
On #5 ask TexPat, tennis balls in kerosene, etc.
On #6 see SCA case.

Not that any of this really matters. What matters is that he be charged and that the evidence be considered by judge and/or jury.

Dave.

 

[MacRoadie]

Now, have we seen phycical bullying - yes. How about leaning over to bump the spectator after one of the stages?

Let's not forget this little episode:

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sorry for double posting:

http://www.facts4lance.com/

his defence is turning into a sorry-assed story. X not credible, Y not credible, McQuaid credible...

Their team doesn't even have the courage to own the domain outright. The owner is hiding behind a private registration. Man up Team Armstrong.

http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?domain=facts4lance.com&prog_id=GoDaddy

The domain renders content from facts4lance.wordpress.com. At least they've got good IT help. That's how I'd do it. Godaddy hosts the SUBDOMAINXYZ.wordpress.com. I wonder if it will dent their bandwidth allocation.

The rhetoric is pretty strong. My last recollection of a similar messenger was the Iraqi PR guy when #43 went on an empire building spree.

Fabiani's been on retainer for a long time now and there's way more to come. At some point, will Nike and Trek will need to finance another Pro cyclist defense fund?

 

[yourwelcome]

He's not a sociopath/psychopath (anti-social personality disorder). He doesn't get in physical fights. He does plan ahead. He hasn't had issues with sustaining consistent work. He's not reckless about his own safety.

He doesn't fit the DSM definition for the disorder. Based on public knowledge of his behaviors, he seems to fit Narcissistic personality disorder.

You're no doubt right, but even if he doesn't truly fit the tag 'psychopath', then like many of our CEOs and successful alpha males he does display various degrees of the standard psychopath types of behavior you mentioned. Self-centred aggressive behaviour and a lack of empathy describes plenty of successful business people.

Plus there's a few of the narcissist traits you mentioned.

But in the case of successful celebrities like LA, you wonder if the notion of self-importance was to be expected as a result of his success and adulation, instead of a completely self-generated disorder lacking external reinforcement. I don't know if that makes a difference in psych practice, but the latter seems more like a 'genuine' disorder?

 

[D-Queued]

You're no doubt right, but even if he doesn't truly fit the tag 'psychopath', then like many of our CEOs and successful alpha males he does display various degrees of the standard psychopath types of behavior you mentioned. Self-centred aggressive behaviour and a lack of empathy describes plenty of successful business people.

...

Read the book, "Sharks in Suits" and you might change your mind about whether or not at least some would fit the DSM diagnosis.

Just saying...

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

Congratulations:

1. To Ivan Basso for winning the 2005 Tour de France, Jan Ullrich for winning Stage #20, and Christophe Moreau for placing third in the mountains classification

2. To Bradley Wiggins for placing third in the 2009 Tour de France

Dave.

 

[webvan]

There comes George : http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6571826

 

[D-Queued]

Out with the Fabiani?

Just in (thanks RR):

Lance Armstrong hires Karl Rove’s lawyer

Dave.

 

[Tuarts]

I don't post here often so I'm only going to say one thing but if it becomes official, which is looking likely, whatever your stance, this is a sad day for cycling. This will have massive repurcusions for the sport, the ripples will be huge. The sick-Freudian sideshow that just keeps spinning will continue 'en force' now.

 

[webvan]

The ship is sinking...fast...http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...air-doping-allegations/?cid=topic:mostrecent3

 

[flicker]

The ship is sinking...fast...http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...air-doping-allegations/?cid=topic:mostrecent3

Just remember, all the negative information against Lance could make it impossible for him to get a fair trial.
Perhaps he could go get tried in France?

 

[flicker]

Lance could move to France or Italy. I would think Casis/Cannes or Lake Como.

 

[Jagers]

Lance Armstrong hires Karl Rove’s lawyer

 

[D-Queued]

Lance Armstrong hires Karl Rove’s lawyer

Look up, way up. One, two, three, four, five posts ago:

Just in (thanks RR):

Lance Armstrong hires Karl Rove’s lawyer

Dave.

RR tweet caught my attention.

Dave.

 

[webvan]

Wonder how long they'll keep that up http://facts4lance.com/ - it might be used as evidence against them...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Let's not forget this little episode:

I actually liked the fact that he Ditched that girl ummm errr guy???? I thought it was funny.

For example IF I was running along and some ******* came up and tried to run alongside of me with that *** clown suit on I would have ditched him in a more proper USMC style.

That has nothing to do with if I think LA was a doper or not but if some Jack face comes up on me then he will HIT the gutter No doubt. I have no tolerance for either fanboys with horns or haters with ummm clown suits.

you want to clown then join the circus or the rodeo.

 

[Oldman]

I don't post here often so I'm only going to say one thing but if it becomes official, which is looking likely, whatever your stance, this is a sad day for cycling. This will have massive repurcusions for the sport, the ripples will be huge. The sick-Freudian sideshow that just keeps spinning will continue 'en force' now.

For those of us in American cycling that have had to witness the team of people Lance has used to co-opt the sport and it's glory for his own use, this is a much better day. It's doubtful any Euros felt he was any cleaner than the competition and won't lose a ton of sleep. The truth is better in the long run.

 

[webvan]

Takes us back to 1999, eh...prologue...ok, surprising, but ok, Sestrières, WTF! This made no sense. Worst part of course is that everyone else was being "cautious" after the '98 bust, and you had this fraud saying he'd never dope after nealy dying of cancer...if only the UCI hadn't accepted that backdated TUE, no one would remember this guy now, not more than Rumsas.

 

[yourwelcome]

Read the book, "Sharks in Suits" and you might change your mind about whether or not at least some would fit the DSM diagnosis.

Just saying...

Dave.

Even without reading it I wouldn't have to change my mind to agree that the successful 'business class' as a stereotype fit the pyschopath/narcissist tag to various degrees. To be fair, a rare few not at all, but an unrealistic dose of self belief, aggression and lack of empathy seems to be rewarded well in business.

I'm not saying I like it, or that society wouldn't be better off if we punished instead of rewarded that behaviour - I think it would.

Not sure where LA sits on the spectrum - high up, but less than the obsessives here think is my bet.

Cheney on the other hand - now there's a prominent public figure who I think, based on what I know of his public record, fits the level of 'psychopathy' LA is accused of here to a tee. And yet plenty of people here bay for LA's blood on the basis that he's a self-interested cheating bully, while supporting people like Cheney.

Or Karl Rove.

 

[MacRoadie]

I actually liked the fact that he Ditched that girl ummm errr guy???? I thought it was funny.

For example IF I was running along and some ******* came up and tried to run alongside of me with that *** clown suit on I would have ditched him in a more proper USMC style.

That has nothing to do with if I think LA was a doper or not but if some Jack face comes up on me then he will HIT the gutter No doubt. I have no tolerance for either fanboys with horns or haters with ummm clown suits.

you want to clown then join the circus or the rodeo.

You do realize the guy had been running before the bunch passed him, and that a good dozen other riders had already passed him without even batting an eyelash. Oh yeah, and the guy had been at several prior stages.

Lance just saw the opportunity to be a ****** and jumped on it...

 

[D-Queued]

Even without reading it I wouldn't have to change my mind to agree that the successful 'business class' as a stereotype fit the pyschopath/narcissist tag to various degrees. To be fair, a rare few not at all, but an unrealistic dose of self belief, aggression and lack of empathy seems to be rewarded well in business.

I'm not saying I like it, or that society wouldn't be better off if we punished instead of rewarded that behaviour - I think it would.

Not sure where LA sits on the spectrum - high up, but less than the obsessives here think is my bet.

Cheney on the other hand - now there's a prominent public figure who I think, based on what I know of his public record, fits the level of 'psychopathy' LA is accused of here to a tee. And yet plenty of people here bay for LA's blood on the basis that he's a self-interested cheating bully, while supporting people like Cheney.

Or Karl Rove.

I'm not arguing with you about some successful business people. And, more than just a few. But, it isn't a universal truth and cream does rise to the top. Nobody likes working for an a-hole. Employee loyalty is arguably at its lowest ever ebb, and workforce mobility arguably at its highest even in places like China (where many workplace conditions in factories I visit regularly are actually pretty nice - nicer than factories in companies I have worked for).

As for where LA is on the spectrum, you could be right and there could be some sort of distorted view by those, like me, on forums. My guess, however, is that this is more of an iceberg situatin. We only see a small glimpse of him, through highly distorting image filters.

What we see is the tip of the proverbial iceberg - and far less than the staff at the Yellow Rose.

Dave.