Paris-Nice 2024, March 3-10

[CyclistAbi]

It's not just about wheel sucking, which is tactically sound given his abilities, it's also that Roglic looks bad doing it, head cocked and elbows in the posture of chicken wings.

Yeah, what is up with that. It's like he is trying to impersonate Jonas on an attack, while benefiting from Remcos aero body.

 

[Savant12]

Great to see Bernal mixing it up again. Hope, his form continues to improve.

 

[jmdirt]

So…uh…we shouldn’t talk about the two biggest riders in the race…in the race thread?

We should talk about them in THIS race though (ie: not the TdF two years ago, not the TdF '24, not the imaginary...).

 

[zlev11]

everyone on this forum thinks every rider just has limitless energy to do whatever they want and then are surprised when the guy who attacks constantly loses 27 minutes on the first big mountain stage.

 

[Sciatic]

So…uh…we shouldn’t talk about the two biggest riders in the race…in the race thread?

Funny you jumped to that extreme. You can reread what I said : “if you care to” you can move some of the refundant back and forth (He did XYZ . . Did not .. did too…nuh-uh..,yuh-huh) to the other thread.

That way if like this AM I didn’t get up early enough to watch the stage I can read what happened out on the road (including what Remco and Roglic did as well as other riders)) without wading through the other stuff.

And if you don’t care to then it’s not really addressed to you.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

“If we have a plan, Roglic is usually stuck to my wheel. I didn't like him, that was why I kept going so hard.” - Remco

Remco about the sprint for bonus seconds

Is this a matter of a spellingcorrector messing up what you wrote? Evenepoel said that usually Roglic is in his wheel but this time he didn't see him (in his wheel) which is why he kept going. He didn't say anything about not liking Roglic, though i'm sure he might think it.

"Right moment" is when both Remco and Roglič are in a group together and they have dropped either Vingegaard or Pogačar. In this case Roglič works. None of them are in this race, so unless another rider proves to be stronger than both of them, well... no working together with your biggest rival I guess...

So, no chance at all for Roglic to lose time to anyone else but Evenepoel.

The easiest way for Roglic to remind me why I don't like him is for him to get on a bike.
The easiest way for Evenepoel to remind me why I don't like him is for him to open his mouth.
The easiest way for this forum to remind me which users I don't like is the pair of them racing against each other.
Today has been the perfect encapsulation of all three.

Was away most of the day, so i only read some interviews. What did Evenepoel say that was so offputting.

 

[Oldermanish]

It was a reply in general. I didn't even watch the race yet. I can only imagine it was about Roglic not riding... Again. There must not be many "right moments" going by his racing behavior.

I watched it and he never seemed too far back. When the "break" formed, he waited until a rise in the road and spun across to the move. They shut down when he got there. It contained some serious guys so he wasn't going to let it get out of hand and he didn't tow a group with him. He'd have worked if it had a chance and the fact that the riders backed off said as much about who would/could work with him as anything. It's stage 1 and everyone was stretching their legs.

 

[Berniece]

"Right moment" is when both Remco and Roglič are in a group together and they have dropped either Vingegaard or Pogačar. In this case Roglič works. None of them are in this race, so unless another rider proves to be stronger than both of them, well... no working together with your biggest rival I guess...

Would be extremely arrogant and dumb of Roglic to only see Evenepoel as competition.

 

[red_flanders]

Was away most of the day, so i only read some interviews. What did Evenepoel say that was so offputting.

Apparently nothing. This was a response to a mis-quote.

 

[bNator]

I don't think there's much to criticise regarding Roglič's tactics in 1-week stage races. He is, after all, one of the most successful 1-week stage races in history. I think Roglič knows exactly when the right moment is to attack. Of course, fans of the opposing riders don't like that and would rather have him attacking all over the place making as many stupid moves as possible to minimise his own chances.

That's ok to wish that, I too am happy to see Remco attacking idiotically on a molehill before the 10 km final flat... It's also ok to claim you don't like his style and you prefer stage hunting than going for GC...

But it's a bit dishonest trying to debate it's somehow Roglič's tactical mistake now not to go with Remco yesterday. In what world is it a tactical mistake not to burn yourself completely on the flat section of a first stage of a race where you are the main favourite and which presents many opportunities for you later on? Sure, Remco and Rogla could probably ride like madmen yesterday, but they would have been chased to gain what, 10-20 seconds...

And it's precisely because Roglič doesn't see Remco as his only threat that he doesn't want to expose himself to the attacks of the likes of Almeida later in the race. At this stage, he will do the minimum to keep Remco in check while keeping himself as fresh as possible to be able to defend against others on the day, where Remco possibly loses minutes (you never know with this guy)...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Maybe the week of a Roglic-Evenepoel head to head was not the best time to step up as a moderator

One warning given yesterday (I'm not going to discuss that on the board, per the rules), but let's avoid posts that are not likely to serve any purpose other than get under the skin of others. We are here to enjoy racing and discussion about it: nothing will be won in our discussions (except perhaps respect) so they don't have to be confrontational or competitive.

Argue your opinions, celebrate your wins, bemoan your losses, cheer your favourites, have banter while it can be considered good natured, but as the note at the top of every sub-forum states "Civility is compulsory here".

Enjoy the race, no matter who you favour.

 

[yaco]

I suspect the sprinters have chosen the wrong race - I am surprised more did not go to TA which has a more suitable parcours.

 

[tobydawq]

I suspect the sprinters have chosen the wrong race - I am surprised more did not go to TA which has a more suitable parcours.

Yes, that makes no sense.

 

[Lequack]

Remco: Today we go again huh?
Roglic: After you

 

[Salvarani]

I don't think there's much to criticise regarding Roglič's tactics in 1-week stage races. He is, after all, one of the most successful 1-week stage races in history. I think Roglič knows exactly when the right moment is to attack. Of course, fans of the opposing riders don't like that and would rather have him attacking all over the place making as many stupid moves as possible to minimise his own chances.

That's ok to wish that, I too am happy to see Remco attacking idiotically on a molehill before the 10 km final flat... It's also ok to claim you don't like his style and you prefer stage hunting than going for GC...

But it's a bit dishonest trying to debate it's somehow Roglič's tactical mistake now not to go with Remco yesterday. In what world is it a tactical mistake not to burn yourself completely on the flat section of a first stage of a race where you are the main favourite and which presents many opportunities for you later on? Sure, Remco and Rogla could probably ride like madmen yesterday, but they would have been chased to gain what, 10-20 seconds...

And it's precisely because Roglič doesn't see Remco as his only threat that he doesn't want to expose himself to the attacks of the likes of Almeida later in the race. At this stage, he will do the minimum to keep Remco in check while keeping himself as fresh as possible to be able to defend against others on the day, where Remco possibly loses minutes (you never know with this guy)...

Good post. Hit the nail on the head with this.

 

[Salvarani]

I suspect the sprinters have chosen the wrong race - I am surprised more did not go to TA which has a more suitable parcours.

Perhaps logistics plays a part here. Many starting at T-A did SB or Trofeo Laigueglia in the week.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Perhaps logistics plays a part here. Many starting at T-A did SB or Trofeo Laigueglia in the week.

I wonder if some of the sprinter go to the harder race (Paris-Nice) to get the best possible shape for MSR and the other classics in March. These races are raced much harder than they used to.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Good post. Hit the nail on the head with this.

Yes, good post indeed but at this point it proves more as an assessment of the state of the forum that a blatant obvious analysis must be again and again uttered.

 

[Salvarani]

I wonder if some of the sprinter go to the harder race (Paris-Nice) to get the best possible shape for MSR and the other classics in March. These races are raced much harder than they used to.

Many of them has also raced opening weekend and other races in Belgium, so I think logistics plays the biggest part here. But of course, many are still building shape. Usually there arent more than 2-3 opportunities for the sprinters anyway in a week.

Then they travel over from Nice to Milano, which isnt far.

 

[yaco]

Perhaps logistics plays a part here. Many starting at T-A did SB or Trofeo Laigueglia in the week.

Think you will find that anyone who rode SB went to TA as it is logistically difficult to do PN. No sprinters did Trofeo Laigueglia so that does not enter the equation. Of course some sprinters who have their eyes on MSR will ride TA. Or possibly the sprinters who go to TA live in Monaco or Nice.

 

[Salvarani]

Think you will find that anyone who rode SB went to TA as it is logistically difficult to do PN. No sprinters did Trofeo Laigueglia so that does not enter the equation. Of course some sprinters who have their eyes on MSR will ride TA. Or possibly the sprinters who go to TA live in Monaco or Nice.

Yes exactly... Thats what I am saying.

And SB isnt very sprinter-friendly, so thats why most of them had to do P-N. Or teams would have a nightmare moving in and out riders.

 

[Rob5091]

So stage2 is the big sprint showdown - nothing lumpy to claim about, it's who's the fastest. Or who's got the best lead out as apparently some guys are missing.
It seems De Lie is suffering still from his crash, or he thinks losing 3 and half minutes will let him get in the break! (maybe him and/or Campenaerts will lose enough time to have a go on stage 5)

 

[CyclistAbi]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iH_R1pqDfRg


Without Rogla likely Remco would have won PN 2024 on stage 1. Now i guess we will just have to watch a proper race instead.

 

[Volderke]

Yes, good post indeed but at this point it proves more as an assessment of the state of the forum that a blatant obvious analysis must be again and again uttered.

From a rational DS - POV, it would make sense to say Remco rode far too agressive for this first day, putting his cards on the table and thus showing too much of his hand when it's not necessary, while Roglic was sometimes out of position, but when it mattered, he controlled Remco's attack, so smart racing, not too much energy burnt and obviously saving energy for when it's necessary and there is a real opportunity to make a gap.

From a forum member perspective, you can praise Remco for riding agressive / entertaining, and Roglic for riding smart and showing that, how good Remco was on that climb attacking, he is at least on par. That's the positive, constructive discussion that everybody can live with.

--> I wouldn't think that the rational DS POV need to be explained on this forum (at least, I have high hopes most the members here see what happens in a race and how to interprete this), and if we're respectful, we praise Remco for entertainment and Roglic for resisting, and both for delivering us an entertaining duel.

From a forum fanboy perspective, you can say (Roglic fanboy POV) that Bambi rode stupid, the attack was dumb, or (Remco fanboy POV) that Roglic is dull, boring, a wheelsucker and Remco is phantastic (even though his attack was clearly not going anywhere). That's the negative, destructive discussion that invites going down the rabbit hole.

--> the discussion often slides into the fanboy perspective, and I admit I let myself slip down the slope (I called him a wheelsucker, after someone said his attack was dumb). The sad thing is that some of the fanboys on here don't even see their grade of fanboy-ism (I do , and I mostly REact (after someone starts with negativity).

The annoying thing about fanboys is that they think they are right just because their analysis of events is sound. I can write just as much a sound analysis but that won't suggest my fanboy thoughts are as sound.

What matters for me is the entertainment riders bring to the race. Entertainment is what makes us watch cycling , and the entertainment factor is often a big part of the popularity and market value of a rider. Emphasizing results, smart (but boring) riding as it is the nec + ultra of racing is imho missing the beauty of racing: it's like comparing bank accounts and valuing the highest number as if that person is 'the best'. Some get more wins and results because they ride 'efficient', while others don't get that many because they ride 'stupid'.
Just two examples: Roglic' lost Tour was heartbreaking, especially as he rode agressive throughout that Tour and seemed to have already won, and the way he bounced back from this (and other mishaps, crashes) made me respect him enormeously. In Remco's case, I like him more for 'stupid' attacks than clinical wins.

So imho, it's not about the results (except for the insecure, the fanboys, that need a win in order to feel 'better' than the competition and their fanboys).

In this case, the Remco / Roglic competition in Paris-Nice is simply beautiful as they have opposite riding styles (attacking vs. countering) and as long as it makes an exciting race, everyone can enjoy the fight.
But the fight is often more interesting than the result (cycling is in a way a metaphor of life), and applauding clinical efficiency in a sport that thrives because of entertainment, is simply not how I see racing (and life, for that matter).

 

[Elos Anjos]

From a rational DS - POV, it would make sense to say Remco rode far too agressive for this first day, putting his cards on the table and thus showing too much of his hand when it's not necessary, while Roglic was sometimes out of position, but when it mattered, he controlled Remco's attack, so smart racing, not too much energy burnt and obviously saving energy for when it's necessary and there is a real opportunity to make a gap.

From a forum member perspective, you can praise Remco for riding agressive / entertaining, and Roglic for riding smart and showing that, how good Remco was on that climb attacking, he is at least on par. That's the positive, constructive discussion that everybody can life with.

--> I wouldn't think that the rational DS POV need to be explained on this forum (at least, I have high hopes most the members here see what happens in a race and how to interprete this), and if we're respectful, we praise Remco for entertainment and Roglic for resisting an both for delivering us an entertaining duel.

From a forum fanboy perspective, you can say (Roglic fanboy POV) that Bambi rode stupid, the attack was dumb, or (Remco fanboy POV) that Roglic is dull, boring, a wheelsucker and Remco is phantastic (even though his attack was clearly not going anywhere). That's the negative, destructive discussion that invites going down the rabbit hole.

--> the discussion often slides into the fanboy perspective, and I admit I let myself slip down the slope (I called him a wheelsucker, after someone said his attack was dumb). The sad thing is that some of the fanboys on here don't even see their grade of fanboy-ism (I do , and I mostly REact (after someone starts with negativity).

The annoying thing about fanboys is that they think they are right just because their analysis of events is sound. I can write just as much a sound analysis but that won't suggest my fanboy thoughts are as sound.

What matters for me is the entertainment riders bring to the race. Entertainment is what makes us watch cycling , and the entertainment factor is often a big part of the popularity and market value of a rider. Emphasizing results, smart (but boring) riding as it is the nec + ultra of racing is imho missing the beauty of racing: it's like comparing bank accounts and valuing the highest number as if that person is 'the best'. Some get more wins and results because they ride 'efficient', while others don't get that many because they ride 'stupid'.
Just two examples: Roglic' lost Tour was heartbreaking, especially as he rode agressive throughout that Tour and seemed to have already won, and the way he bounced back from this (and other mishaps, crashes) made me respect him enormeously. In Remco's case, I like him more for 'stupid' attacks than clinical wins.

So imho, it's not about the results (except for the insecure, the fanboys, that need a win in order to feel 'better' than the competition and their fanboys).

In this case, the Remco / Roglic competition in Paris-Nice is simply beautiful as they have opposite riding styles (attacking vs. countering) and as long as it makes an exciting race, everyone can enjoy the fight.
But the fight is often more interesting than the result (cycling is in a way a metaphor of life), and applauding clinical efficiency in a sport that thrives because of entertainment, is simply not how I see racing (and life, for that matter).

Remco is young and can go guns blasting all the way. Roglic's age and experience point to other more cautious approaches that have proven to be sound, as his palmares shows.

I myself have learned to appreciate cycling and Roglic for the more subtle race reading and surgical stomps, along the pathos that Roglic has been showing every time he is reborn from the ashes.

Either way, even if Roglic cancels sometimes the more Hollywoodesque and entertaining attacks, the drawback is that we ourselves in the forum have replaced such blunt cycling entertainment by the Remco-Roglic rivalry. I bet Remco is not the knucklehead he seems to be and his taking valuable lessons by riding with Roglic.