Paul Kimmage

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

He's at the Irish Indo. What holds him back now? He has the platform. <snipped>

Do you know the editorial policies of the Indo? i dont and i reckon Denis O'Brien is pretty Murdochian in his approach. So Kimmage probably has one hand tied behind his back. Indo is not a rich paper.

Well done Calvert and Arbuthnott. That Kimmage is better known than they are is not Kimmage's fault.

How do you know they have stopped them or even would stop them in the first place? Sport is just a tiny portfolio of Calvert's and Arbuthnott's work. Their insight team were left near football a few weeks back.

So they are not really that interested in sport, but they are investigative journalists and the FIFA story is huge. Much bigger than a minority sport like cycling where most of the sport fans of the world know it is full of doping. Not going to make ones name finding doping in cycling.

Yes he did and that's to be be acknowledged. That is Kimmage from '08/09 onwards. I agree that other journalists outside of Walsh should have got more attention and those names have already been mentioned. But then I don't think Kimmage is in that category. He's got plenty of publicity and it's totally out of sync with what others should have got where those same journalists did most of the heavy lifting in the most difficult years of covering Armstrong. And no way does Kimmage deserve the same accolades as Walsh on Armstrong.

Is it Kimmage's fault that he got a lot of plaudits over the Armstrong story? He sure got a lot of flak over rough ride and the insinuations that Kelly and Roche might be dopers. He got lots of flak over Michelle Smith. Swings and roundabouts.

Kimmage, i repeat aint whoring himself out as far as i can see! He was very reluctant to make the film rough ride, i heard.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Oh hello strawman, missed you

You said

Kimmage is essentially doing exactly what Walsh got thrown under the bus for in here

So I asked if kimmage really did what Walsh was attacked for.

I'm guessing from the fact that you immediately changed the subject that the answer is - no.

You seem pretty quick to abandon that position. When you said that kimmage is behaving like Walsh, where you just baiting? Because you seem to have nothing to back that up

Look it's a very simple point, sorry you're having a hard time grasping it. Kimmage is being questioned about his consistency, the fact he goes after some athletes and cheers on others. If you can't see the comparison with the criticism of Walsh for essentially endorsing Team Sky then I can't help you.

Jimmy why dont you study the consistency of Wiggins, Froome, Geraint Thomas's performances and Dave Brailford's comments. Then come back and take a shot a Kimmage.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Oh hello strawman, missed you

You said

Kimmage is essentially doing exactly what Walsh got thrown under the bus for in here

So I asked if kimmage really did what Walsh was attacked for.

I'm guessing from the fact that you immediately changed the subject that the answer is - no.

You seem pretty quick to abandon that position. When you said that kimmage is behaving like Walsh, where you just baiting? Because you seem to have nothing to back that up

Look it's a very simple point, sorry you're having a hard time grasping it. Kimmage is being questioned about his consistency, the fact he goes after some athletes and cheers on others. If you can't see the comparison with the criticism of Walsh for essentially endorsing Team Sky then I can't help you.

You weren't one of the people who criticized Walsh.

So I don't quite understand what makes you think you can tell those that did, what they criticized Walsh for.

It wasn't merely because of "consistency". You are putting words in our mouths. You should probably drop it now. Its a very forced and weak comparison.

Never mind the fact that Ireland being 54th best ranked nation in Football and qualifying for a tournament where 50% of nations get in, isn't quite the same as Froome and Wiggins dominating the TDF after both struggled to drop sprinters their whole careers.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sometimes I read your posts and they seem to just random unrelated sentences saying irrelevant things. That one being a case in point.

I've made my point, I think there has been a healthy discussion in the thread about Kimmage despite numerous attempts to shut it down. I don't have a huge problem with him cheering on the Irish football team but I do think it illustrates he isn't entirely objective in his anti-doping stance, and plenty of examples have been proved by others to back that up.

 

[wendybnt]

A great piece of moral relativism from The Hitch.

In Hitch land Sky are worse than other dopers because they've won something. Presumably The Hitch has a sliding scale of the moral wrongness of a rider that accords with where they place in a race. A doper who places 12th is slightly worse than a doper who places 13th

Hilarious.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

So Walsh being wildly inconsistent within the same sport, the same book even the same article is the same as Kimmage not making indiscriminate accusations against any Irish athlete competing in any sport? ok sure...

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

A great piece of moral relativism from The Hitch.

In Hitch land Sky are worse than other dopers because they've won something. Presumably The Hitch has a sliding scale of the moral wrongness of a rider that accords with where they place in a race. A doper who places 12th is slightly worse than a doper who places 13th

Hilarious.

I think you are confusing morality with suspicion. Don't know where you got "morality" from (I'm guessing you brought it in yourself in an attempt to troll ) but since we were talking about suspicion, yes I think it's perfectly sensible to argue that a rider who finishes 1st is more suspicious than one who comes 13 th.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Never mind the fact that Ireland being 54th best ranked nation in Football and qualifying for a tournament where 50% of nations get in, isn't quite the same as Froome and Wiggins dominating the TDF after both struggled to drop sprinters their whole careers.

For one, they haven't qualified for the tournament (yet), losing out to Poland for the second automatic spot. But I think you are selling the comparison a little short. What happened on the night in question was beating the reigning World Champions, nearly matching their point total in qualifying at the time (19-18).

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Never mind the fact that Ireland being 54th best ranked nation in Football and qualifying for a tournament where 50% of nations get in, isn't quite the same as Froome and Wiggins dominating the TDF after both struggled to drop sprinters their whole careers.

For one, they haven't qualified for the tournament (yet), losing out to Poland for the second automatic spot. But I think you are selling the comparison a little short. What happened on the night in question was beating the reigning World Champions, nearly matching their point total in qualifying at the time (19-18).

Ok. But this is the qualifiers afterall. One group with the world champions and then 6 other teams that didn't even make the world cup.

And one match.

So the cycling equivalent would be an unfavoured rider beating the tdf champion on one stage of a local continental race. Say Danny diaz beating berto on that stage of san luis in 2012. Suspicious, sure. Just not comparable to a guy dominating the tdf.

 

[gooner]

With Germany in town I enjoyed the many articles in the Irish media on Muller-Wohlfahrt.

Oh wait...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

Sometimes I read your posts and they seem to just random unrelated sentences saying irrelevant things. That one being a case in point.

I've made my point, I think there has been a healthy discussion in the thread about Kimmage despite numerous attempts to shut it down. I don't have a huge problem with him cheering on the Irish football team but I do think it illustrates he isn't entirely objective in his anti-doping stance, and plenty of examples have been proved by others to back that up.

That's not what you said.

Like a rat fleeing a sinking ship, you are now trying to move the goalposts.

You said, more than once, that kimmage is doing what Walsh was attacked for.

He is not.

You got too excited, and said something that wasn't remotely true. You should take it back.

No, I'm not falling prey to your strawman trap, i.e. Being corralled into defending positions I haven't taken and why posts twisted and misrepresented. The comparison fits, despite your attempts to shout it down. It's not a carbon copy granted, but that's not what was meant, despite the strawman about 'bitter ex-Armstrong fans'.

Least not forget what you once thought of Walsh:

Anyway i dont think Walsh is on the Sky bandwagon. For the faults i see in him, it must be remembered that he handled himself with immense honor and courage on the Armstrong thing for years. And i would not throw accusations at such a man lightly

And yet he gets thrown under the bus, for a myriad of reasons, derided and denigrated for everything he has become. Now I'm critical of Walsh myself, he's seems to have slipped into a very narcissistic state, but he doesn't deserve the sustained character assassination that is being perpetrated here. And the point being made about Kimmage is nothing like that, we are just questioning his objectivity. Not trying to dress him up as part of the problem. When you accused Sky of bullying and eventually answered after several prompts from me, a Walsh tweet about Astana was used as an example by DW. A ridiculous example for the record. Yet none of the Kimmage tweets are considered bullying, and Walsh isn't team Sky. How about when Kimmage asked Brailsfraud (non-bullying nickname of course) about why Eddy 'the new Merckx' Boss' career hadn't realised the potential he showed early on, in front of EBH, is that bullying? It was calculated to embarrass and frankly I think EBH was simply the tethered goat for Kimmage's vendetta. And it is because of that his motives should be brought into question, just as Walsh's are in the other thread. If it was pure anti-doping he would be giving all athletes the same scrutiny, not lambasting some and cheering on others.

All that said I admire what Kimmage had done, just like once you used to admire Walsh.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

With Germany in town I enjoyed the many articles in the Irish media on Muller-Wohlfahrt.

Oh wait...

Football journalists are the worst kind of hacks. Sorry that you expected so much from them!

 

[mrhender]

@Hitch and Jimmy -and perhaps everyone

Let's keep things on topic and refrain from derailment.

This goes for all threads, you've got going atm.

So please tone it down a notch with the personal stuff, and we have a healthy discussion going on.

Thank you both/all.

 

[Digger]

Re:

@Hitch and Jimmy -and perhaps everyone

Let's keep things on topic and refrain from derailment.

This goes for all threads, you've got going atm.

So please tone it down a notch with the personal stuff, and we have a healthy discussion going on.

Thank you both/all.

there is nothing healthy about any long term cycling fan!

See what it's done to hog and myself - reading reviews of the program!

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

@Hitch and Jimmy -and perhaps everyone

Let's keep things on topic and refrain from derailment.

This goes for all threads, you've got going atm.

So please tone it down a notch with the personal stuff, and we have a healthy discussion going on.

Thank you both/all.

there is nothing healthy about any long term cycling fan!

See what it's done to hog and myself - reading reviews of the program!

I don't know why everyone is demonsiing Kimmage. He's remarkably consistant and last time I checked he wasn't being paid by Irish Rugby. Unlike Walsh who is profiting from looking in the other direction with Sky.

Kimmage is only human, admits it himself. Whereas Walsh is not only willfully ignoring Froome's rise he's actually going around beating up on other journalists about Armstrong!

Walsh has become Armstrong, whereas Kimmage is just being himself.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

@Hitch and Jimmy -and perhaps everyone

Let's keep things on topic and refrain from derailment.

This goes for all threads, you've got going atm.

So please tone it down a notch with the personal stuff, and we have a healthy discussion going on.

Thank you both/all.

there is nothing healthy about any long term cycling fan!

See what it's done to hog and myself - reading reviews of the program!

I don't know why everyone is demonsiing Kimmage. He's remarkably consistant and last time I checked he wasn't being paid by Irish Rugby. Unlike Walsh who is profiting from looking in the other direction with Sky.

Kimmage is only human, admits it himself. Whereas Walsh is not only willfully ignoring Froome's rise he's actually going around beating up on other journalists about Armstrong!

Walsh has become Armstrong, whereas Kimmage is just being himself.

I seen The Program tonight and it's a poor film but this is just hyperbole rubbish.

Kimmage is not consistent. That has been debunked before and again in this thread. Instead of just simply saying he's consistent, address the points made and counter them with a coherent viewpoint.

 

[Digger]

Kimmage is annoying irish rugby players with where he's going with it all...from the benezech book to the latest pieces on rugby doping. It's not so much that we know there is doping going on individually by irish players - it's the attitude by some irish clowns that they are certain our lads are clean - kimmage isn't saying they are doping either but he is saying we should be open minded to the possibility,
There are things you could bring up around Kimmage and even I've raised them on here. Greg Lemond and Tygart being two. Those are two issues I would straight away disagree with him on - but anyone who thinks the irish rugby issue is a bullet to shoot him with is really mistaken.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

@Hitch and Jimmy -and perhaps everyone

Let's keep things on topic and refrain from derailment.

This goes for all threads, you've got going atm.

So please tone it down a notch with the personal stuff, and we have a healthy discussion going on.

Thank you both/all.

there is nothing healthy about any long term cycling fan!

See what it's done to hog and myself - reading reviews of the program!

I don't know why everyone is demonsiing Kimmage. He's remarkably consistant and last time I checked he wasn't being paid by Irish Rugby. Unlike Walsh who is profiting from looking in the other direction with Sky.

Kimmage is only human, admits it himself. Whereas Walsh is not only willfully ignoring Froome's rise he's actually going around beating up on other journalists about Armstrong!

Walsh has become Armstrong, whereas Kimmage is just being himself.

I seen The Program tonight and it's a poor film but this is just hyperbole rubbish.

Kimmage is not consistent. That has been debunked before and again in this thread. Instead of just simply saying he's consistent, address the points made and counter them with a coherent viewpoint.

Touch a raw nerve did I?

Fact: Walsh is being paid by Murdoch who owns Sky.
Fact: Walsh cites Armstrong transformation as suspect
Fact: Walsh doesn't even consider Froome's transformation
Fact: Walsh had several inconsistencies, inaccuracies and blatant mistakes in his books on Sky/Froome
Fact: Walsh calls out Gibey for being a fan of Armstrong
Fact: Walsh doesn't look in the mirror with regards to his own fandom

Which part is not coherent?

Perhaps you could look in the mirror with Walsh?

 

[mrhender]

I don't know all the details here but is it possible that Kimmage is holding back on his own country(wo)men to keep on
being able to do good in other parts, while maintaining a that Irish doping is very possible?

Is he(of age) just more if a realist than idealist.

I would also hazard that all the trouble he went through with Armstrong and McBruggen made him pick his battles?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Kimmage is not consistent. That has been debunked before and again in this thread. Instead of just simply saying he's consistent, address the points made and counter them with a coherent viewpoint.

That Kimmage is flawed is hardly big news,he admitted it as much with his attitude to Kelly at the Whistleblower talk, but give me Kimmage and his flaws over the sycophantics fans with typewriters any day of the week.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

@Hitch and Jimmy -and perhaps everyone

Let's keep things on topic and refrain from derailment.

This goes for all threads, you've got going atm.

So please tone it down a notch with the personal stuff, and we have a healthy discussion going on.

Thank you both/all.

there is nothing healthy about any long term cycling fan!

See what it's done to hog and myself - reading reviews of the program!

I don't know why everyone is demonsiing Kimmage. He's remarkably consistant and last time I checked he wasn't being paid by Irish Rugby. Unlike Walsh who is profiting from looking in the other direction with Sky.

Kimmage is only human, admits it himself. Whereas Walsh is not only willfully ignoring Froome's rise he's actually going around beating up on other journalists about Armstrong!

Walsh has become Armstrong, whereas Kimmage is just being himself.

I seen The Program tonight and it's a poor film but this is just hyperbole rubbish.

Kimmage is not consistent. That has been debunked before and again in this thread. Instead of just simply saying he's consistent, address the points made and counter them with a coherent viewpoint.

Touch a raw nerve did I?

Fact: Walsh is being paid by Murdoch who owns Sky.
Fact: Walsh sites Armstrong transformation as suspect
Fact: Walsh doesn't even consider Froome's transformation
Fact: Walsh had several inconsistencies, inaccuracies and blatant mistakes in his books on Sky/Froome
Fact: Walsh calls out Gibey for being a fan of Armstrong
Fact: Walsh doesn't look in the mirror with regards to his own fandom

Which part is not coherent?

Perhaps you could look in the mirror with Walsh?

Yet that makes him Lance Armstrong.

And since we're in a Kimmage thread, who was on the Irish Indo last year talking about having an ego.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I don't know all the details here but is it possible that Kimmage is holding back on his own country(wo)men to keep on
being able to do good in other parts, while maintaining a that Irish doping is very possible?

Is he(of age) just more if a realist than idealist.

I would also hazard that all the trouble he went through with Armstrong and McBruggen made him pick his battles?

Kimmage's Verbruggen troubles are not over.

I guess getting sacked by Sunday Times and then finding it hard to get another job has possible reined him in from all out declarations, which I cannot fault him for.

 

[MarkvW]

Sports journalists operate under constraints that make objective reporting difficult or impossible.

The first problem is fundamental. Sports reporting is sports promotion. As interest for a sporting activity declines, interest in the reporter's work product declines. If the sport is not promoted, the sport will die. The conflict with objectivity is obvious.

A second problem is access. The athletes and their employers vitally need the positive promotion of their sport. A reporter who promises negativity will be denied access (Armstrong is the perfect example). A reporter without access will suffer economically. There just aren't that many salable sports stories that can be written without access. That is another source of conflict of interest.

Sports doping is generally a criminal activity that is hidden from public view. Reporting criminal activity before the criminals are arrested rarely happens--because it is extremely expensive.

Then there is defamation. The threat of defamation lawsuits is real and potentially devastating for a reporter who goes too far out on a limb. Armstrong played very effectively on that fear.

Whiny, unsubstantiated doping talk is a waste of a reporter's time.

This discussion about what we ought to expect from sports reporters would be more helpful if we focused on that which is realistically possible.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

I don't know all the details here but is it possible that Kimmage is holding back on his own country(wo)men to keep on
being able to do good in other parts, while maintaining a that Irish doping is very possible?

Is he(of age) just more if a realist than idealist.

I would also hazard that all the trouble he went through with Armstrong and McBruggen made him pick his battles?

Kimmage's Verbruggen troubles are not over.

I guess getting sacked by Sunday Times and then finding it hard to get another job has possible reined him in from all out declarations, which I cannot fault him for.

I don't fault him.

I'am making the point that you cannot claim 100% concistency and investagative journalism ALL the time..

It is simply not possible.

I also don't think Kimmage is perfect or a hero.

Heck I don't think anyone is.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I don't know all the details here but is it possible that Kimmage is holding back on his own country(wo)men to keep on
being able to do good in other parts, while maintaining a that Irish doping is very possible?

Is he(of age) just more if a realist than idealist.

I would also hazard that all the trouble he went through with Armstrong and McBruggen made him pick his battles?

Kimmage's Verbruggen troubles are not over.

I guess getting sacked by Sunday Times and then finding it hard to get another job has possible reined him in from all out declarations, which I cannot fault him for.

I don't fault him.

I'am making the point that you cannot claim 100% concistency and investagative journalism ALL the time..

It is simply not possible.

I also don't think Kimmage is perfect or a hero.

Heck I don't think anyone is.

I think the OP's use of 'hero' was wrong*. I think Kimmage would hate to be called or thought of as a hero.

*I think if a mod or OP could change it that would be great.

It might've prevented the last few pages of silliness. But then again people dislike Kimmage more for him pointing out their heroes huge flaws rather than Kimmage's own imperfections.