Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[T-Nielsen]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

The only exampel I know of a rider getting another teams wheel resulted in the same penalty. I do not se the inconsistencies.

Having a rule keeping teams from directly helping each other is very important. If not you risk basically having 18 man teams. I agree in cases like this it seems excessive but it did give Port an "unfair" advantage.

Whether it has given him "unfair" advantage we can't really tell.
The fact is that he's out of the GC battle. The decision was just a final nail in his coffin. That's unfair.

Its always unfair when someone has a flat. Its one of the most annoying things watching cycling. The penalty was not unfair as he broke the rule. As I said, I would like to see the rule more flexible, but as it is now, the jury had no choice.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

The only exampel I know of a rider getting another teams wheel resulted in the same penalty. I do not se the inconsistencies.

Having a rule keeping teams from directly helping each other is very important. If not you risk basically having 18 man teams. I agree in cases like this it seems excessive but it did give Port an "unfair" advantage.

Whether it has given him "unfair" advantage we can't really tell.
The fact is that he's out of the GC battle. The decision was just a final nail in his coffin. That's unfair.

Its always unfair when someone has a flat. Its one of the most annoying things watching cycling. The penalty was not unfair as he broke the rule. As I said, I would like to see the rule more flexible, but as it is now, the jury had no choice.

I think they could've turned the blind eye (like many times before).
No one would react since he already lost nearly a minute.
This way it looks like beating a man on the ground just to make sure.

 

[Asero831]

Who will be the podium now?

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

The fact is that he's out of the GC battle. The decision was just a final nail in his coffin. That's unfair.

I suppose it might be unfair on a cosmic scale - although the universe is vast and uncaring, so I don't know about that either.

But as rule enforcement? Hell no. Totally fair. 100% clear-cut case.

Not to throw you into a cosmic spin, but the rules are not as vast and uncaring as the universe, but subject to interpretation and application, being human and not divine.

Personally speaking, had the jury decided to "look the other way" in this case, as in many other instances, the Giro would have benefited in all the right ways and not suffered in all the worst. Machiavelli would have aggreed.

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

I really cant see the logic in why the rules should be avoided depending on how the great white hope fares in the race. In this case the great white even tweeted himself out of contention. But i do agree it was a great shame for the race with hope of a more active Sky with better focus on details in the future.

With that being said this controversy has left a foul impression given the skybots rampant behavior with nationality innuendos and a lousy smell from the past. Even cyclingnews couldnt hold themselves and jumped on the evil italian/german/spanish conspiracy-wagon.

A resourceful reporter from Gazzetta dello Sport took it upon himself to jog to the Giro press office’s mobile administrative centre – a pink bus parked outside the press centre – in a bid to speed up the process, and he returned a couple of moments later proudly flourishing a freshly printed sheet of A4 paper and thrust it dramatically into Vegni’s hand.

Cant escape the sour grapes there.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

I think they could've turned the blind eye (like many times before).
No one would react since he already lost nearly a minute.
This way it looks like beating a man on the ground just to make sure.

Like they did with PED's?

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

This is funny. Almost 400 posts on one illegal wheel change. All the Aussies and SKY fans are furious and the rest are OK or even happy about the slap.

Rules are rules, but regardless, he will lose another 10+ minutes along the way so these 2min are pretty irrelevant.

I just hope that Porte can show some class and start working for the real team-leader Konig right away

Dutch and supporting Contador most of all. Allthough I support a good race mostly.
Because of this I'm really dissapointed Porte got 2 minutes penalty, because it kills the race.

The rule does make sense though. Personally I'd give them both 1000 CHF fine though, but then again a rule is a rule. Better to follow them.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. I don't expect riders to know all of the rules of cycling but I do expect a DS to do so and for both to know at least the basics. Everyone and his dog knows the last 3 klik rule and the fact that you can't take a wheel from another team is pretty freaking basic as well

A DS is just an old rider. He will know more of the rules than most current riders, but he will not know all of the hundreds of pages of regulations off the top of his head..

Actually, it's a whopping 169 pages, about 75% of which applies to stuff a Pro Tour team and rider need zero knowledge of:

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/82/39/2-ROA-20150205-E_English.pdf

Press the back button. Now click on all of the other pdf files involving rules applicable to an elite road rider who doesn't take part in other bicycle sports. But I'll tell you what, you find me a single pro rider who knows even the 170 pages worth of rules in the single document you've selected and I'll buy you a beer. You won't find one.

Of course, nobody has yet found a single rider or ds who says they knew about this particular rule. I'm sure there must be some, given that a few riders have been done for it before. But how shocking it must be to the gloating axe-grinders on this thread who are pretending to think that pro bike riders are in any way likely to know all of the UCI regulations that the general reaction from the pros has been confusion. Why ever could that be? It's inexplicable. After all, some pompous message board posts from people who themselves didn't know the rule existed until a few hours ago assure me that it's common knowledge! And that riders who don't know all of the regulations are amateurs.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

“I hope they [Sky] reflect on this matter and they realise that there has been no injustice here: a rule that has existed for a long time was applied to an incident in the race. I hope that when things calm down later this evening they’ll realise that the rule had to be applied.”

Well put by race director Mauro Vegni. There really should be no controversy here.

It's not that strange though. It's the emotions rollercoaster. Hard to stay rational when emotions are flying high.

At first I also cursed RCS and the UCI, but right now I'm just dissapointed Porte got penalised because it kills the Giro a bit, but there was no other choice.

 

[sir fly]

Lets see how strictly they'll follow the rules for the rest of the race.
They've set the standard with this one.

 

[del1962]

i think there is a certain amount of frustration that his team didn't help Porte better, but I don't think the riders knowingly broke the rules so some discretion could have been applied, but it is too late now and it is up to Porte and Sky to react positively in adversity now.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

[
Strangely the lack of familiarity with the law by riders and management is usually dependent upon if you are the one who has broken the law. Had the same incident happened by say Aru or Contador I am of the belief that Brailsford would quickly have cried bloody murder to race officials.

Brailsford's not my responsibility and I couldn't really care less what he thinks. If I had to guess, I'd say that if it was Aru or Contador, he'd say nothing and be silently pleased that his own rider was getting a leg up, because like all of the other big team bosses he's a ruthless sort who likes to win. I don't think that the fairness or unfairness of it would even register as a factor either way. And certainly whether it makes the race less fun would be completely irrelevant to him. Which is exactly the same attitude I'd expect from Astana or Tinkoff management.

But as someone who wanted Uran to win and now wants Aru to win but who mostly just wants a good race, I don't have any reason to share their cynicism. I'm not at all happy that a lot of the fun of the GC battle has been killed by a jobsworth reaction to a pretty harmless incident where one rider helped a friend who was losing time due to a mechanical on a meaningless stage and neither knew they were breaking a rule. And I really don't see how anyone, other than people who (a) really hate Sky or Porte or (b) want Aru or Contador to win at all costs and don't care how or (c) have a nearly autistic love of bureaucratic rules and their enforcement could feel otherwise.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

Lets see how strictly they'll follow the rules for the rest of the race.
They've set the standard with this one.

The thing is that in very recent years 2 riders were penalised in exactly the same way because of the same incident.

You can't make exceptions now. I mean Sicard was even leading the freaking race when he got DQ'd ..... I FRANCE!

Stop thinking the world is against Porte.

It sucks! That's what I agree on.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

Lets see how strictly they'll follow the rules for the rest of the race.
They've set the standard with this one.

The thing is that in very recent years 2 riders were penalised in exactly the same way because of the same incident.

You can't make exceptions now. I mean Sicard was even leading the freaking race when he got DQ'd ..... I FRANCE!

Stop thinking the world is against Porte.

It sucks! That's what I agree on.

I'm not thinking what you're implying.
Read my post(s) about beating a man on the ground. That's the point.

 

[Broth3r]

Simon's take on it: https://youtu.be/XY6sfvILsVY?t=4m48s

As for myself, I understand the point of the rule. It attempts to keep things transparent and maintain healthy competition by impeding brash collusion between supposed opponents. But as seen today, what it achieve is a far cry from that. Yes, it's there and it's for everyone, but tautology is no justification for a rule. It's a slippery slope, I reckon, but it's a big one and there will be consequences for leveling the hill. Being unable to help a mate when at no prejudice to you or your team is simply not something that should enforced.

Else I wonder why Samu isn't nailed to a cross. Well, I'd say probably because it'd serve no point.

 

[tokenron]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

I am so jack of GTs and classics being ruined by unavoidable injuries and in this case, obscure rule violations. Is it just me, or does this stuff always seem to happen to race favourites? Dear Gods of Cycling, can we please have one freakin' race in which all the favourites are available, healthy and not plagued by outrageously bad luck?

 

[carton]

Re:

Lets see how strictly they'll follow the rules for the rest of the race.
They've set the standard with this one.

So really lenient? After all they didn't DQ him for the push.

Press the back button. Now click on all of the other pdf files involving rules applicable to an elite road rider who doesn't take part in other bicycle sports. But I'll tell you what, you find me a single pro rider who knows even the 170 pages worth of rules in the single document you've selected and I'll buy you a beer. You won't find one.

Of course, nobody has yet found a single rider or ds who says they knew about this particular rule. I'm sure there must be some, given that a few riders have been done for it before. But how shocking it must be to the gloating axe-grinders on this thread who are pretending to think that pro bike riders are in any way likely to know all of the UCI regulations that the general reaction from the pros has been confusion. Why ever could that be? It's inexplicable. After all, some pompous message board posts from people who themselves didn't know the rule existed until a few hours ago assure me that it's common knowledge! And that riders who don't know all of the regulations are amateurs.

Actually it's just that one booklet about road rules. What a road rider would need to know are the pages between 25-56, so about 32 pages of rules. Insane, right. Being insane, I'd also expect all of the riders to have a pretty good grasp of the 100 pages on medical and anti-doping rules and most of them to be fairly acquainted with most of the under 30 pages on what the actual punishments are and the 7 pages on labor conditions. The rest of the regulations mainly deal with licensing and other disciplines.

BTW, if you think that's crazy, you'd be beyond appalled at what every citizen of non-common-law countries is expected by law to know of the law. And that Ignorantia juris non excusat. What's more, in Europe, ignorantia iuris nocet.

 

[JRanton]

Re:

What's baffling for me is that reading Twitter is pretty clear most pros have no idea of what the rules of their sport say.

Reading twitter it seems the teams regularly help out riders from other teams with mechanical assistance. Only last week Meersman tweeted to thank Sky for giving him a wheel when he punctured.

 

[Stelvio]

Re:

I understand now why cyclingnews disabled comments. They can really cloud your judgement. Initially I thought the punishment was way too harsh, but after reading the lunacy of the "absolutely impartial" in-no-way-Porte-fans I kind of wished they had enforced this rule:

2.3.012
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food,
drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has
been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the
same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.

I see your point...

My view on this incident:

• I don't expect everyone to know every rule, but ignorance is never a valid argument. (I also expect that every rider and DS has to sign off on the rules to get their licenses.)
• The rule seems clear that two minutes is the only possible penalty (if the rule is applied).
• It is up to the commisaires to rule. If Cavendish or Kittel finishes outside the time limit on a mountain stage, the commisaires might keep them in depending on circumstances. It's ok to be disappointed, but the fault is your own.
• If you break rules, it is not the commisaire that gave you a penalty that lost you the race. It is the person breaking the rules.
• The standing of the race should not influence the ruling (either way).

That said:

• It was surprising that the caravan didn't pass Porte (I guess by orders from commisaires/race director), like they usually do after mechanichal failures.
• It was a harsh penalty. 20-30 seconds would have been fair.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

I am so jack of GTs and classics being ruined by unavoidable injuries and in this case, obscure rule violations. Is it just me, or does this stuff always seem to happen to race favourites? Dear Gods of Cycling, can we please have one freakin' race in which all the favourites are available, healthy and not plagued by outrageously bad luck?

It's been terrible in the last few years.

God forbid we actually could see Boonen and Cancellara in peak condition against each other or Froome and Contador etc. You just know in the Tour that at least one if not two of the ''big 4'' are going to crash out of contention.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

The only exampel I know of a rider getting another teams wheel resulted in the same penalty. I do not se the inconsistencies.

Having a rule keeping teams from directly helping each other is very important. If not you risk basically having 18 man teams. I agree in cases like this it seems excessive but it did give Port an "unfair" advantage.

Whether it has given him "unfair" advantage we can't really tell.
The fact is that he's out of the GC battle. The decision was just a final nail in his coffin. That's unfair.

The nails came from his team's puzzling decision to provide minimal support for their gc contender. Isolated as he was he likely would've lost even more time than the 2 minutes he penalized. The rule was broken, there photographic footage coupled with his own admission of the violation via his public thanking of Clarke. Are Sky's riders above the rules?

 

[thehook]

First Rule of Being a PRO in ANY SPORT.

#1 Know the Rules!

There was a SKY rider with him. Why not take his wheel? One could say confusion, heat of moment. Yes Agreed!

You could also say. NO! Keep your wheel! I need you for the chase back!

Let's not forget Ted King getting eliminated for 7 seconds in the TDF! ELIMINATED! SENT HOME FU Teddy! Game over!
The rules are the rules. There are riders penalized daily! You want to argue 2 minutes is too much. I got ya, Lets debate it! Fine! I would have taken into light his time loss today. And then I would have given him 45 seconds more. Assuming that would be the average time it would take a mechanic to swap the wheel and give him a push.

Brailsford should STFU. IMHO.
SKY are the New England Patriots of Cycling. They have not seen a rule book they like. Tramadol, Xenon, Froomes feed on Alpe. So if you want to argue Sportsmanship. Read my last sentence. You preach clean cycling. I with you! Then you give riders Tramadol now FU! Can't have it both ways?

Porte.
If you expect Contador to show him a 2 min gap tomorrow as a gift. I would only refer you to your local shrink! See Porte's antics in the 2013 tour. And his buddy Froome's Book. Now Richie has to ride out of his skin to podium. Good luck.

When you do not Honor the Rules. You have no Sport. You are now PRO Wrestling!

He is luck not to be DQ'ed

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

A Danish TV reporter talked to a Sky DS immediately after the stage (and before we knew of the two minute penalty). The Sky DS said the stage went according to Sky's plan. There were no issues. Sky had half their team with Viviani in order to get the stage win in case the breakaway got caught.

I don't know why so many are blaiming all the other teams, or the UCI, or the Jury for the outcome of this incident. When Sky don't care for their GC rider - why should anyone else? The 2 minute penalty is harsh and terrible for the race. But this is still a pretty light incident compared to what we've seen happen over the years when GT podium favourites crash out (Contador, Froome in TdF 2014, for instance. Not to mention Ocana or Beloki and many other greats in the past). Contador also lost 1:20 in stage 1 of the 2011 Tour because he was caught behind a crash 8 km from the finish (and Contador was particularly unlucky because his rivals were caught behind another crash which, however, happened within the 3 km zone, and therefore didn't give them any time deficits! Bertie crossed the finish line before Andy on stage 1 but still lost 1:14 to him!). Such things happens and are terrible for the race.

But hopefully today's result will force Porte to attack a bit earlier on the hilly or mountain stages. So this can still be a great giro - even for Porte. And his attacks don't have to be as spectacular as Andy's or Alberto's in the 2011 Tour in order to make this a great giro

Because they don't really have a terribly deep understanding of racing or race tactics. And many are just lashing out because the guy they were rooting for took it on the chin. First with bad luck, then stupidity and lack of attention to detail.

Cioni and Eisel must have ridden 30+ grand tours between them. So it's nothing to do with a lack of understanding of race tactics or racing. Viviani is there as a plan b for Sky, something which Sky have been criticised for not having in the past.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Lets see how strictly they'll follow the rules for the rest of the race.
They've set the standard with this one.

So really lenient? After all they didn't DQ him for the push.

Press the back button. Now click on all of the other pdf files involving rules applicable to an elite road rider who doesn't take part in other bicycle sports. But I'll tell you what, you find me a single pro rider who knows even the 170 pages worth of rules in the single document you've selected and I'll buy you a beer. You won't find one.

Of course, nobody has yet found a single rider or ds who says they knew about this particular rule. I'm sure there must be some, given that a few riders have been done for it before. But how shocking it must be to the gloating axe-grinders on this thread who are pretending to think that pro bike riders are in any way likely to know all of the UCI regulations that the general reaction from the pros has been confusion. Why ever could that be? It's inexplicable. After all, some pompous message board posts from people who themselves didn't know the rule existed until a few hours ago assure me that it's common knowledge! And that riders who don't know all of the regulations are amateurs.

Actually it's just that one booklet about road rules. What a road rider would need to know are the pages between 25-56, so about 32 pages of rules. Insane, right. Being insane, I'd also expect all of the riders to have a pretty good grasp of the 100 pages on medical and anti-doping rules and most of them to be fairly acquainted with most of the under 30 pages on what the actual punishments are and the 7 pages on labor conditions. The rest of the regulations mainly deal with licensing and other disciplines.

BTW, if you think that's crazy, you'd be beyond appalled at what every citizen of non-common-law countries is expected by law to know of the law. And that Ignorantia juris non excusat. What's more, in Europe, ignorantia iuris nocet.

So by your count we are now up to 307 pages. And whatever your bizarre "expectations" may be, you won't be able to find even one rider who actually does know all of what's contained in them. Funny that, isn't it? It's almost as if your "expectations" are completely irrelevant.

"By the way", ignorance of the law is also no defence in criminal proceedings in common law countries. But in both common law and civil law jurisdictions, no judge has ever actually believed that anyone appearing in front of him or her really knows every law. And that includes both prosecution and defence lawyers as well as the accused, for the simple reason that it is not possible to know every provision. Lawyers do not recite the law from memory, they look it up. The principle that ignorance is no defence to a criminal charge is a matter of public policy, designed to avoid imposing an impossible burden of proof on the prosecution. It is not a statement of belief that any individual actually has a complete knowledge of the law. That's the kind of stupidity we reserve for internet forums.

 

[Andre.J]

I'm glad they caught the cheater