Quintana??

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

Quite a lot of accusations here with no evidence. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that against forum rules.

His performance can be taken as evidence. This is not a court of law.

Not really.

Not even's Contador's performances nowadays. Contador would be clean today. Accusations on Quintana will have to be other than performances itself. The only one that could be stepping in illegal terrain is Froome. Not even Nibali. So you have a problem on pointing the finger today based on performances.

Suppose you don't observe a student's IQ or how much effort they put into studying, nor the circumference of their waist . You have the averages for IQ, effort and waist circumference of the student population.

You now learn the exam performance of two students. Actually, you don't. I don't even tell you the w/kg number in the third week, uh I mean the test score or the problems they had to solve. I just tell you that student A scored in the top 0.1% and student B scored in the bottom 40%.

What are your guesses as to their IQ, effort and waist circumference (all of which you don't observe) relative to the population average?

 

[The Hitch]

The problem with the performance discussion has always been the " we really really really want cycling to be clean" side, acting like anyone going marginally slower than Pantani is pretty certain to be clean.

In the mid 2000's it wasn't just the guys who were winning who were doping. It was everyone who was coming 30 minutes behind in the autobus too. So performances like Nibs, Contador, Quintana, even though slightly slower than Armstrong are still well well in red territory.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

The only red flag is Froome's PSM ? Really??

PSM , 1st climb of TdF, Froome 6.09 W/kg
Alpe, after 3 weeks of TdF, Quintana 6.37 W/Kg

seriously, at least check the facts before or are you simply posting intentional misinformation ?

Based only on that 2015 Alpe ascent time Quintana is doped to the eyeballs. What is sad though ... in 2016 Quintana is even more doped, 1998 style. 51km/h average flat ITT for 55kg climber who never excelled at ITT's?

Quintana probably has a lot of protection from ASO so 2016 is the year of the full 200% full ***.

Those are your numbers not mine. I see you are new to the forum. Welcome. There are plenty of threads that talk about these numbers. There is one that is a sticky that goes into detail on that. For Quintana his numbers are floating around 6-6.1 watts/kg in my calculations. Annecy in 2013 was tricky because he sucked wheels most of the trajectory. But numbers were a bit higher (6.1-6.2 kg/watts). The climb was 3 km shorter as well. So effort is shorter.

Even if those numbers ae correct, you don't consider 6-6.1w/kg to be a red flag; particularly in the third week of a GT?

Even if he were the most naturally gifted cyclist of all time, and could theoretically match the power outputs of the elite riders in the main EPO era without blood doping; putting out those kind of numbers towards the end of a three week tour suggests, at the very least, a high probablity of doping for recovery.

That is humanly within the range for a guy his size. And gifted with very high VO2 max.

People are arguing with me about the absolute watts/kg which I am saying that is not the problem.

But it is the recovery the issue which now you are stating. We need to make a distinction. Then I agree. But it might not involve EPO or blood doping. Maybe something else.

The Annecy 6.1-6.2 w/kg for the length of the climb could be fine as well.

I remember last year everyone predicting Quintana to break the 39 minutes barrier in order to win in Alpe. That's when I knew that he had lost the Tour on La Toussuire. He was not going to make it because he has shown that ceiling before. He has shown that ceiling over and over again. On Toussuire he was low on w/kg and he could have gone longer from the bottom of the climb. He had better recovery than Froome and he could have gained more time there. His absolute power had a ceiling for Alpe.

That's why I don't like when people complain all the time about the riders being losers for not going on the attack all the time, or not driving at the front, or sucking wheels too much. Like Quintana and probably other gifted athletes. The problem is that there is an implication for doing that. Quintana found that in Ventoux and A3X. Same story. He couldn't do it. The face might not show it but the body feels it. That's one of the reasons Quintana has been defensive. He could go on red and fade completely. Different if you are on EPO or blood doping because you have an "extra source" to compensate for over attacking. He has said several times on interviews. He has to be very exact on the attacks. No room for errors.

If he had an unlimited source I can assure you that he would attack and attack and demolish Froome. I disagree with others that he had the power of attacking on the second week or even the beginning of the third week. I don't think he had it. He has to rely heavily on recuperation. IMHO. It is just my opinion

 

[Escarabajo]

Pantani was riding 2 minutes faster on Alpe.

 

[Escarabajo]

Maybe this year he stepped up a notch the program. Or the others fade. Not sure. We'll see.

 

[Benotti69]

We dont what is humanly possible clean becuase we don't know who rode clean apart from Bassons, Kimmage and a few others. Were they outliers in cycling terms? I dont think so.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

The only red flag is Froome's PSM ? Really??

PSM , 1st climb of TdF, Froome 6.09 W/kg
Alpe, after 3 weeks of TdF, Quintana 6.37 W/Kg

seriously, at least check the facts before or are you simply posting intentional misinformation ?

Based only on that 2015 Alpe ascent time Quintana is doped to the eyeballs. What is sad though ... in 2016 Quintana is even more doped, 1998 style. 51km/h average flat ITT for 55kg climber who never excelled at ITT's?

Quintana probably has a lot of protection from ASO so 2016 is the year of the full 200% full ***.

Those are your numbers not mine. I see you are new to the forum. Welcome. There are plenty of threads that talk about these numbers. There is one that is a sticky that goes into detail on that. For Quintana his numbers are floating around 6-6.1 watts/kg in my calculations. Annecy in 2013 was tricky because he sucked wheels most of the trajectory. But numbers were a bit higher (6.1-6.2 kg/watts). The climb was 3 km shorter as well. So effort is shorter.

Even if those numbers ae correct, you don't consider 6-6.1w/kg to be a red flag; particularly in the third week of a GT?

Even if he were the most naturally gifted cyclist of all time, and could theoretically match the power outputs of the elite riders in the main EPO era without blood doping; putting out those kind of numbers towards the end of a three week tour suggests, at the very least, a high probablity of doping for recovery.

That is humanly within the range for a guy his size. And gifted with very high VO2 max.

People are arguing with me about the absolute watts/kg which I am saying that is not the problem.

But it is the recovery the issue which now you are stating. We need to make a distinction. Then I agree. But it might not involve EPO or blood doping. Maybe something else.

The Annecy 6.1-6.2 w/kg for the length of the climb could be fine as well.

I remember last year everyone predicting Quintana to break the 39 minutes barrier in order to win in Alpe. That's when I knew that he had lost the Tour on La Toussuire. He was not going to make it because he has shown that ceiling before. He has shown that ceiling over and over again. On Toussuire he was low on w/kg and he could have gone longer from the bottom of the climb. He had better recovery than Froome and he could have gained more time there. His absolute power had a ceiling for Alpe.

That's why I don't like when people complain all the time about the riders being losers for not going on the attack all the time, or not driving at the front, or sucking wheels too much. Like Quintana and probably other gifted athletes. The problem is that there is an implication for doing that. Quintana found that in Ventoux and A3X. Same story. He couldn't do it. The face might not show it but the body feels it. That's one of the reasons Quintana has been defensive. He could go on red and fade completely. Different if you are on EPO or blood doping because you have an "extra source" to compensate for over attacking. He has said several times on interviews. He has to be very exact on the attacks. No room for errors.

If he had an unlimited source I can assure you that he would attack and attack and demolish Froome. I disagree with others that he had the power of attacking on the second week or even the beginning of the third week. I don't think he had it. He has to rely heavily on recuperation. IMHO. It is just my opinion

This is just a complete nonsense argument to claim he's not doping.. Of course, riderrs doing EPO programs or blood doping also go into the red and fade completely - the vast majority of cyclists during the past 25 years fit into that bracket. They just go into the red and fade completely at a higher level than if they wouldn't be doping.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that it's ridiculous on fans calling on Quintana to attack and be more aggressive; he's obviously close to the limit and doesn't want to blow up. But what's that got to do with whether he is doping or not? Riders on EPO crack all the time, riders doing transfusions blow up and get dropped. Other riders on EPO ride at threshold and just lost a minute or so. It doesn't turn you into a robot that can respond to any attack at will and ride as fast as you want - it just raises your performances to a level which you wouldn't be able to achieve naturally. For example, climbing at over 6w/kg in the last week of the Tour de France.

 

[Escarabajo]

I guess you are right on the EPO thing. As I said I just stated my own opinion on Quintana. I think his thing is recovery (new or old stuff).

With respect to the oxygen vectors that was one of the things that killed some of the Colombians in the past. Either for lack of money or for lack of responsiveness for living at altitude all the time. I think that is one of the things that have Henao on the edge.

Note: I just noticed that you wrote that I thought he was not doping. I never said that. I inclined to think that he is but not on oxygen vectors. But on recovery meds. But who cares what it is, doping is doping.

 

[ekroy10]

I normally do not sign up to forums but I had to make an exception as no one seemed to spot this on Eurosport.

I was watching highlights of stage 4 of the Route du Sud on British Eurosport and I am almost certain that Nairo Quintana used a hidden motor during his TT run. At the start of the stage 4 highlights, Eurosport showed brief highlights of Nairo Quintana's TT run. There was a superb camera angle showing him come round the last bend before the finishing straight. You can clearly see him stop pedaling, push back with his lower foot and then something appears to disengage inside the bottom bracket.

How can a rider who is as small and light as Quintana possibly put out more w/kg than the likes of Sylvain Chavanel, who clearly did a very good TT. I have no doubt he will be using his NEW time trial bike, as he put it, for the Tour de France. Taking PEDs is one thing but using a hidden motor is just not cycling anymore. I would love if he was caught during the Tour de France but I doubt very much that is going to happen.

 

[Escarabajo]

ekroy10,
You are the second new member that come to participate in the Quintana thread in the last week. Tour de France must be approaching.

 

[DFA123]

I normally do not sign up to forums but I had to make an exception as no one seemed to spot this on Eurosport.

I was watching highlights of stage 4 of the Route du Sud on British Eurosport and I am almost certain that Nairo Quintana used a hidden motor during his TT run. At the start of the stage 4 highlights, Eurosport showed brief highlights of Nairo Quintana's TT run. There was a superb camera angle showing him come round the last bend before the finishing straight. You can clearly see him stop pedaling, push back with his lower foot and then something appears to disengage inside the bottom bracket.

How can a rider who is as small and light as Quintana possibly put out more w/kg than the likes of Sylvain Chavanel, who clearly did a very good TT. I have no doubt he will be using his NEW time trial bike, as he put it, for the Tour de France. Taking PEDs is one thing but using a hidden motor is just not cycling anymore. I would love if he was caught during the Tour de France but I doubt very much that is going to happen.

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Secondly, not sure where to start with this comment. The reason he is small and light is exactly why he can put out a lot higher w/kg than Chavanel. Also, not sure how much w/kg has to do with him doing so well on a gently rolling course. He's probably just very aerodynamic due to his size and narrow shoulders, so doesn't need anything like the absolute power of Chavanel to match him on the flat. Movistar riders are generally superb at TTs for their size, so they obviously spend a lot of work on their positioning.

Quintana has always been a very good time triallist for such a small guy; if the course is rolling or hilly in any way then he will be competitive - and Chavanel, while good, is hardly at the level of Dumoulin or Cancellara these days.

 

[alexandr_PO]

bye bye little guys doing 51km/h in flat tt's

thermal scanner on moto bike
military thermal scanner at TdF

http://www.lejdd.fr/Sport/Cyclisme/Tour-de-France-une-camera-thermique-militaire-pour-detecter-des-moteurs-electriques-792721

 

[capuldemetal]

this goes for everybody! so your argument is invalid.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

this goes for everybody! so your argument is invalid.

We seen that not to be the case.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I normally do not sign up to forums but I had to make an exception as no one seemed to spot this on Eurosport.

I was watching highlights of stage 4 of the Route du Sud on British Eurosport and I am almost certain that Nairo Quintana used a hidden motor during his TT run. At the start of the stage 4 highlights, Eurosport showed brief highlights of Nairo Quintana's TT run. There was a superb camera angle showing him come round the last bend before the finishing straight. You can clearly see him stop pedaling, push back with his lower foot and then something appears to disengage inside the bottom bracket.

How can a rider who is as small and light as Quintana possibly put out more w/kg than the likes of Sylvain Chavanel, who clearly did a very good TT. I have no doubt he will be using his NEW time trial bike, as he put it, for the Tour de France. Taking PEDs is one thing but using a hidden motor is just not cycling anymore. I would love if he was caught during the Tour de France but I doubt very much that is going to happen.

I see what you are referring to, but I have frankly no clue to how it would look if he indeed had a motor. I think its highly improbable, especially since its freaking Route du Sud.

 

[ekroy10]

Even more reason to try out the TT bike with motor that you will be using in the Tour de France. No chance of being caught. That iPad app is useless anyhow. How many riders have they caught with it?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Even more reason to try out the TT bike with motor that you will be using in the Tour de France. No chance of being caught. That iPad app is useless anyhow. How many riders have they caught with it?

Quintana is improved steadily from 2013 to 2014 etc. in this discipline. I don't think it was something out of the ordinary for him, but I can definitely see what you are referring to and it looks kinda odd. Point taken about Route du Sud, but... meh. I just can't wrap my head around it.

 

[StryderHells]

I normally do not sign up to forums but I had to make an exception as no one seemed to spot this on Eurosport.

I was watching highlights of stage 4 of the Route du Sud on British Eurosport and I am almost certain that Nairo Quintana used a hidden motor during his TT run. At the start of the stage 4 highlights, Eurosport showed brief highlights of Nairo Quintana's TT run. There was a superb camera angle showing him come round the last bend before the finishing straight. You can clearly see him stop pedaling, push back with his lower foot and then something appears to disengage inside the bottom bracket.

How can a rider who is as small and light as Quintana possibly put out more w/kg than the likes of Sylvain Chavanel, who clearly did a very good TT. I have no doubt he will be using his NEW time trial bike, as he put it, for the Tour de France. Taking PEDs is one thing but using a hidden motor is just not cycling anymore. I would love if he was caught during the Tour de France but I doubt very much that is going to happen.

Beating Chavanel isn't really that big of a feat these days, the guy is 36 (37 in a couple of days) and is certainly on the decline. Lots of reasons to doubt Quintana but beating a rider like Chavanel in a TT these days isn't one of them

 

[Tienus]

I was watching highlights of stage 4 of the Route du Sud on British Eurosport and I am almost certain that Nairo Quintana used a hidden motor during his TT run. At the start of the stage 4 highlights, Eurosport showed brief highlights of Nairo Quintana's TT run. There was a superb camera angle showing him come round the last bend before the finishing straight. You can clearly see him stop pedaling, push back with his lower foot and then something appears to disengage inside the bottom bracket.

He makes that strange short back movement everytime he stops pedalling during this TT.
https://youtu.be/29BxI8LV9lI?t=1h1m4s

 

[Praying Mantis]

Re:

I was watching highlights of stage 4 of the Route du Sud on British Eurosport and I am almost certain that Nairo Quintana used a hidden motor during his TT run. At the start of the stage 4 highlights, Eurosport showed brief highlights of Nairo Quintana's TT run. There was a superb camera angle showing him come round the last bend before the finishing straight. You can clearly see him stop pedaling, push back with his lower foot and then something appears to disengage inside the bottom bracket.

He makes that strange short back movement everytime he stops pedalling during this TT.
https://youtu.be/29BxI8LV9lI?t=1h1m4s

People really need to watch this, all of Quintana's ride. It looks very off to me, exactly what I would expect a BB motor to look like. Normally getting stable footing while cornering in a TT isn't a problem, as you can easily plan how to take your corners. Quintana seems to misjudge every little turn slightly, but more likely he's fighting something in the bottom bracket. That "back tick" would be the mechanism I would expect to be there, so the rider can disable the motor at will. Easy enough to use even in the split second before a crash, pretty much happens automatically when bracing for impact. I would expect the motor to be wirelessly activated from the team car. Damn, this doesn't look good at all.

 

[StryderHells]

To me it just looks like he is balancing himself when going around some sketchy looking corners on a bike that doesn't handle fantastically which is the case with most TT bikes, he's a small light guy and he's shifting around a fair bit so in all honesty it really does look like a thing he does to balance himself.
Also it was a fast TT by him but he didn't exactly smash a quality field, he beat an aging Chavanel by 6 seconds and only had 22 seconds to spare over Demare and Coquard who aren't exactly noted TT riders. In my own opinion I would be absolutely shocked if Quintana was clean but I do really doubt he was using a motor here.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

With respect to the oxygen vectors that was one of the things that killed some of the Colombians in the past. Either for lack of money or for lack of responsiveness for living at altitude all the time. I think that is one of the things that have Henao on the edge.

Yep, he's small and being born at the altitude he was with the ancestry he has, his haematocrit and haemoglobin are likely to be naturally high. This is the opposite of an EPO high responder - if you're bigger then EPO can feed those big muscles with oxygen more efficiently, plus with lower natural hemoglobin, you can boost it more without getting into suspicious range (passport allowing) and it might be even more effective than that if your body has some adaptation to your low Hgb. Lucho Herrera: "when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew".

So the conclusion from that is Quintana would probably get less of a climbing boost from blood doping than the average rider. I found this paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1876443/ from this Wikipedia link (I know I know) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans that gives an average male Hgb of 19.2 for a South American altitude native population which seems very high - if I heard a cyclist had that value with no background info, I would call shenanigans.

Incidentally the wiki page (am looking for the source line) says that with prolonged time at sea level, their Hgb regresses to normal levels, which may provide a valid reason for why Quintana spends as much of the season at home at altitude as possible.

On the other hand, his flat time trial performance is still suspicious for a sub-60 kg guy, even one with a good position and small cross section to push through the air. We know that the memorable flat time trials by climbers like Rasmussen etc have been doped big time. Movistar is also a long established team with a long history of blood doping. I'm guessing a hypothetical clean GT would have Quintana losing big chunks of time in flat time trials, but dominating in the mountains. Your guess is as good as mine though.

Also I see nothing dodgy in that video re: motors. He just looks like he's being careful not to clip the downward pedal on the inside of the corner.

 

[AlexNYC]

Re: Re:

People really need to watch this, all of Quintana's ride. It looks very off to me, exactly what I would expect a BB motor to look like. Normally getting stable footing while cornering in a TT isn't a problem, as you can easily plan how to take your corners. Quintana seems to misjudge every little turn slightly, but more likely he's fighting something in the bottom bracket. That "back tick" would be the mechanism I would expect to be there, so the rider can disable the motor at will. Easy enough to use even in the split second before a crash, pretty much happens automatically when bracing for impact. I would expect the motor to be wirelessly activated from the team car. Damn, this doesn't look good at all.

Oh dear... Quintana specifically mentioned that he was trying a new Canyon TT bike that day (also mentioned by Ion Izaguirre after the Spanish ITT competition). Isn't that a more plausible explanation to the observed cornering awkwardness than this conspiracy theory?

 

[Praying Mantis]

Re: Re:

Oh dear... Quintana specifically mentioned that he was trying a new Canyon TT bike that day (also mentioned by Ion Izaguirre after the Spanish ITT competition). Isn't that a more plausible explanation to the observed cornering awkwardness than this conspiracy theory?

Well it's easy to dismiss these "conspiracy theories", but keep in mind that conspiracies happen all the time, especially in pro cycling. Entertaining and exploring those theories is kind what this subforum is about. The intense discussion concerning motors doesn't come from nowhere, they do exist. All I'm saying is that if motors are in use in competition today, I would personally expect it to look just like that footage of Quintana. He might have been doing that strange twitching every time he hit a bend after a straight for a different reason, but who knows. What was new about that Canyon btw, dodgy bearings?

 

[Cookster15]

Being born at high altitude and having a naturally high haematocrit and haemoglobin means you just have a head start on sea level born dopers. It is the same with distance runners from Kenya and Ethiopia. Sure there is less potential boost but these athletes got a natural boost from where they were born and raised.

But assuming he was not "motorised", and regardless of the "kiddie pool" competition Quintana's TT at Route de Sud was impressive and I am hoping he can beat praying mantis Froome and the Skybots. Plus being 1 year older I am also sure he has learned from being too timid last year when he left his attack way too late. Plus why would a rider and team wanting to win the Tour de France risk riding with a motor in a minor stage race like Route de Sud?