Quintana??

[Ryo Hazuki]

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

 

[Nomad]

Re:

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

Who cleaned up Colombian cycling and can you get them to Europe?

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

"cleaned up", as in "stepped out of the dark ages and got their programs up to standard"?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

"cleaned up", as in "stepped out of the dark ages and got their programs up to standard"?

 

[sniper]

that's you? i love that pic.

as for the colombian cycling scene, if people tell you it's clean, trust me it means you're far on the outside and they want you to stay there.
Like you want to dance at that wedding, but your name is not on the guest list.
But keep trying. They might let you in to clean up the tables.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

beltran was arrested in 2011 I think

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success

And your comments are accurate? Afterall, you're the one that said "several" riders tested positive for AICAR...not even close; none as in zero. Btw, do you ever post any links backing up your assertions? I provided you the paper on AICAR...so you should be well informed now. Beltran had AICAR in his possession. It's very expensive which, IMO, suggests he was selling it to athletes who had the financial resources to purchase it. So, why wouldn't any WT riders be some of his customers? AICAR was shown to increase endurance significantly (~44%) in lab mice during the clinicals, and It doesn't influence either the hematological or steriodal module of the ABP. If riders were willing to risk their health with a very toxic drug like GW1516, which has a long glow time (your doping positives you referenced), why wouldn't top WT riders use a safer and harder to detect PED such as AICAR?

Furthermore, the CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground, and also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource (imagine that). And granted industrial-strength doping has stopped with the bio passport, the report mentions that evidence of microdosing & blood doping continue, and that *AICAR* is popular within the peloton. And now you have riders (e.g., Froome, Quintana, Rodriguez) starting to beat the times of confirmed doped riders up some of the biggest climbs (e.g., Alpe d'Huez). In fact, Quintana recently made the all-time top 100 list for the fastest ascents up AH. He's shown in 37th ahead of a myriad of known & supected dopers. No hard evidence (as the proverbial catch phrase is these days), but, IMO, very suspicious.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/five-fresh-names-in-all-time-top-100.html?m=1

 

[burning]

Re: Re:

We're both off about a year on the first arrest. Velonews, Velonation, CN, etc. reported he was arrested in Mar, 2012 in Madrid boarding a flight for Colombia when the AICAR & TB500 were found in his possession (imagine that; a notorious doping doctor found with PEDs in his possession...lol). He was also just arrested again this year in Colombia for drug trafficking charges related to Operation Skype.

Anyone know if any of the top Colombian WT riders had any affiliation with Beltran over the years? He sounds like he was Colombia's #1 doping doc in his heyday.

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success

And your comments are accurate? Afterall, you're the one that said "several" riders tested positive for AICAR...not even close; none as in zero. Btw, do you ever post any links backing up your assertions? I provided you the paper on AICAR...so you should be well informed now. Beltran had AICAR in his possession. It's very expensive which, IMO, suggests he was selling it to athletes who had the financial resources to purchase it. So, why wouldn't any WT riders be some of his customers? AICAR was shown to increase endurance significantly (~44%) in lab mice during the clinicals, and It doesn't influence either the hematological or steriodal module of the ABP. If riders were willing to risk their health with a very toxic drug like GW1516, which has a long glow time (your doping positives you referenced), why wouldn't top WT riders use a safer and harder to detect PED such as AICAR?

Furthermore, the CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground, and also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource (imagine that). And granted industrial-strength doping has stopped with the bio passport, the report mentions that evidence of microdosing & blood doping continue, and that *AICAR* is popular within the peloton. And now you have riders (e.g., Froome, Quintana, Rodriguez) starting to beat the times of confirmed doped riders up some of the biggest climbs (e.g., Alpe d'Huez). In fact, Quintana recently made the all-time top 100 list for the fastest ascents up AH. He's shown in 37th ahead of a myriad of known & supected dopers. No hard evidence (as the proverbial catch phrase is these days), but, IMO, very suspicious.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/five-fresh-names-in-all-time-top-100.html?m=1

FYI, Quintana went even faster in 2015 and the the only riders that beat Quintana are from in 2006 or before.

 

[Nomad]

Good point (I missed that on my initial search). So, even more supicious, IMO, because his 2015 time puts him at 23rd all-time; 1 second behind Riis' second fastest time in 97 and a few seconds ahead of Indurain's second fastest time in 94! Even more surprising is he beat Rasmussen's fastest time in 06 by 20+ seconds...and we all know how doped MR was in 06. Also very interesting on this list is there's no times set before 1991, and none from the great ones of that earlier era: No LeMond, no Hinault, no Fignon, no Merckx (they did climb Alpe d'Huez back then? Lol ).

http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/three-riders-make-it-into-alpe-dhuez.html?m=1

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

colombian domestic cyling scene was cleaned up seriously starting 2012/2013. definitely no colombian wt riders had anything to do with him, only domestic guys like infantino and sevilla

A heavy hitter like Beltran only dealing with the likes of low-level domestics in Colombia? AICAR is very expensive...could those "domestic guys" even afford it on their salaries? Lol.

I don't think you have any clue about the professionalism of domestic colombian cycling. better not comment then.

and calling beltran a heavy hitter is hilarious, he was spit out of europe several years before after working for the small xacobeo team in spain. nobody wanted him anymore and he tried his luck in colombia without success

And your comments are accurate? Afterall, you're the one that said "several" riders tested positive for AICAR...not even close; none as in zero. Btw, do you ever post any links backing up your assertions? I provided you the paper on AICAR...so you should be well informed now. Beltran had AICAR in his possession. It's very expensive which, IMO, suggests he was selling it to athletes who had the financial resources to purchase it. So, why wouldn't any WT riders be some of his customers? AICAR was shown to increase endurance significantly (~44%) in lab mice during the clinicals, and It doesn't influence either the hematological or steriodal module of the ABP. If riders were willing to risk their health with a very toxic drug like GW1516, which has a long glow time (your doping positives you referenced), why wouldn't top WT riders use a safer and harder to detect PED such as AICAR?

Furthermore, the CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground, and also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource (imagine that). And granted industrial-strength doping has stopped with the bio passport, the report mentions that evidence of microdosing & blood doping continue, and that *AICAR* is popular within the peloton. And now you have riders (e.g., Froome, Quintana, Rodriguez) starting to beat the times of confirmed doped riders up some of the biggest climbs (e.g., Alpe d'Huez). In fact, Quintana recently made the all-time top 100 list for the fastest ascents up AH. He's shown in 37th ahead of a myriad of known & supected dopers. No hard evidence (as the proverbial catch phrase is these days), but, IMO, very suspicious.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/five-fresh-names-in-all-time-top-100.html?m=1

http://www.uk-peptides.com/aicar-50mg

yeah aicar is really expensive

 

[Nomad]

The amount used in the mice experiments was 500 mg per kilogram over 4 weeks. Translate that to an average size human over several weeks and it get's a tad bit expensive. This from a Velonation article:

"From an anti-doping point of view, there is one positive thing about AICAR: it’s very expensive to buy. The experiments Professor Evans ran involved a dose of 500mg per kilo body weight for four weeks. That’s the time the experiment with mice took. A gram costs between $80 and $100 so, theoretically doses for humans would costs several hundred dollars. The French paper Libération quotes figures of half a million euro for a treatment with AICAR in a lab in Vienna. But again, there is no research whatsoever to show how much and how long you need to take it to get an effect, so figures are hard to determine."

http://www.velonation.com/news/id/11395/doping-aicar-telmisartan-and-the-need-for-vigilance.aspx

 

[sniper]

In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it

 

[Tienus]

according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it

Plenty of doping doctors told us that EPO is useless.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

..
source for the 150.000 dollar?

good one.
until now you've sourced nothing except pictures of yourself wearing a tinfoil hat.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

Wasn't there a report that empty packaging of AICAR was found in Astana's team hotel (s) during the 09 Tour? You had Astana 1 & 3 on the podium and LA seemed pretty excited about his comeback. LA would sure have the $$$ to buy it. Perhaps that's the secret potion that Piti's using for his remarkable anti-aging performances we see from him throughout the season. Lol. (Btw, he also made the Alpe d'Huez top 100 list with both his 2013/15 times...unbelievable).

 

[Nomad]

Re:

according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it

Plenty of doping doctors told us that EPO is useless.

Yeah...including that ridiculous study that came out a few months ago with amateur cyclists on Ventoux.

 

[malakassis]

http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/three-riders-make-it-into-alpe-dhuez.html?m=1

any explanation why there is no top 100-time for the 1999 ADH-ascent ? (the guerini vs. cam fight)
it was the stage after armstrong stormed sestriere, so i suppose cooked GC-guys is one explanation.
but is there any reasonable "clinic" reasons for low 1999 performances?

 

[Nomad]

http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/three-riders-make-it-into-alpe-dhuez.html?m=1

any explanation why there is no top 100-time for the 1999 ADH-ascent ? (the guerini vs. cam fight)
it was the stage after armstrong stormed sestriere, so i suppose cooked GC-guys is one explanation.
but is there any reasonable "clinic" reasons for low 1999 performances?

Interesting...and maybe because Pantani wasn't there? He holds the top three fastest times; 94, 95 & 97 (they didn't ride it in 98 when he won the Giro-Tour double). 97 was when the 50% Hct limit was implemented and wasn't Pantani "parked" in 99 during the Giro for going over the Hct speed limit? It's a good question...maybe someone else can chime in. Also, I find it interesting that 5 of the top 10 times were set in the 50% Hct limit period - including Pantani's sizzling 97 time (sub 37). Super-high responders to O2-vector doping.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/three-riders-make-it-into-alpe-dhuez.html?m=1

any explanation why there is no top 100-time for the 1999 ADH-ascent ? (the guerini vs. cam fight)
it was the stage after armstrong stormed sestriere, so i suppose cooked GC-guys is one explanation.
but is there any reasonable "clinic" reasons for low 1999 performances?

Apparently the GC riders finished in a group of 8 or so including Kurt Van De Wouwer, so they didn't go all out. Also possible that most guys slightly toned their programmes down following Festina and Pantani.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it

Ferrari has said many things, some truthful, some blatant lies and many whose truthfulness value lies in between...

Concerning AICAR testing, only cologne seems to have a working test, and i'm not sure about it's practicality. AICAR is an endogenous molecule, and one that does not seem incredibly complex at first glance. It's not like EPO where there's subtle difference between the human version and the exogenous version (EPO is a very big glycoprotein, if i'm not mistaken there's even some variation in the endogenous forms of it) and you can "just" use some form of chromatography or electrophoresis to separate them.
I don't know about AICAR, maybe a isotope carbone ratio test would work, but it's quite expensive.
So they probably would end up with a "working" test just like the testo test (not exactly the same mechanism,but for the sake of example), where you set a threshold and use the expensive test when the athlete exceed it. Since it will probably be set high, that's leaving plenty of room to microdose... Or manipulation by bypassing the threshold and going straight to te second test with certain athletes... Ok a bit of conspiracy but remember the Verbruggen quote...
Working on a molecule still in clinical trials might not help them too...

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

In 2011 an Aicar treatment for a procyclist was rumored to cost around 150.000 dollar.
Yes, expensive.
What the current price is, I have no idea.

source for the 150.000 dollar? according to dr ferrari it could be traced and was useless in it's stimulant effects. I don't think anyone would use it if even doping doctors advice against it

If you haven't already read this paper, you might find it interesting on the testing protocols:

J Physiol Pharmacol. 2014 Aug;65(4):469-76.

Metabolic modulators of the exercise response: doping control analysis of an agonist of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor δ (GW501516) and 5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleotide (AICAR).

Pokrywka A1, Cholbinski P, Kaliszewski P, Kowalczyk K, Koncza

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25179079