Quintana??

[Escarabajo]

Hey, I went to their website and looked up for archives 2009 and the first thing I see is this photo:

I am sure they did it on purpose.

He-he. the GC on that year had Cayetano Sarmiento on 4th place and Betancur on 18th. Surely Betancur is a huge talent. I noticed that something weird happened to Quintana on Stage 2 because he almost came driving the bus. After that he got better.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

Hey, I went to their website and looked up for archives 2009 and the first thing I see is this photo:

I am sure they did it on purpose.

He-he. the GC on that year had Cayetano Sarmiento on 4th place and Betancur on 18th. Surely Betancur is a huge talent. I noticed that something weird happened to Quintana on Stage 2 because he almost came driving the bus. After that he got better.

Not sure what the point is in including Sarmiento who is two and a half years older than Betancur.

And no, Quintana was not very good pre-Movistar. Apart from going mutant in the 2010 Avenir he was very average in Nations Cup races or most amateur races with mountains like Aosta and Circuito Montanes

 

[DFA123]

Saying Quintana wasn't very good apart from 2010 Avenir, is a bit like saying Armstrong wasn't very good apart from his Tour de France wins. Quintana destroyed the field on consecutive mountain stages in the biggest race he could compete in as a 20 year old. An Avenir which had one of the strongest and deepest climbing fields there has ever been (Bardet, Landa, Reichenbach, Kelderman, Talansky, Pantano, Dumoulin, Matthews, Kwiatkowski, Izagirre, Atapuma etc....) Of course results for a 20-21 year old are going to be inconsistent as they make the transition into the senior peloton. But if that doesn't show sky-high potential, I'm not sure what does.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

7th in a climbing UCI cat 1 race against the spanish pro continental teams at 19yo

Mountains jersey winner in a mountainous world tour race

Dominant Avenir winner

"not very good"

 

[Tonton]

FWIW, I posted the final GC of the '09 Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in the Thibaut Pinot thread. All I wanted was a picture, then with some digging to find out about the field, things got interesting to me. Pinot won the overall, beat Aru and Quintana by almost one hour in six stages. I admit that I'm biased towards Pinot, but the turn of the tables is quite dramatic. What happened? Did Tibopino get overtaken by mutants? Look at the final GC, some usual suspects in there.

Quintana joined Banesto, different team name, same methods...Quintana??? should be Quintana .

Interesting, so you think Pinot started on a full program earlier than some of his other rivals? I guess that could explain why his progress stalled a bit.

That could be a way to look at it. It seems unlikely to me though. It would be the first time that French teams or riders do something first . Ask JV: in '09 they were probably training like in the '20s, including welding classes and all .

 

[DFA123]

FWIW, I posted the final GC of the '09 Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in the Thibaut Pinot thread. All I wanted was a picture, then with some digging to find out about the field, things got interesting to me. Pinot won the overall, beat Aru and Quintana by almost one hour in six stages. I admit that I'm biased towards Pinot, but the turn of the tables is quite dramatic. What happened? Did Tibopino get overtaken by mutants? Look at the final GC, some usual suspects in there.

Quintana joined Banesto, different team name, same methods...Quintana??? should be Quintana .

Interesting, so you think Pinot started on a full program earlier than some of his other rivals? I guess that could explain why his progress stalled a bit.

That could be a way to look at it. It seems unlikely to me though. It would be the first time that French teams or riders do something first . Ask JV: in '09 they were probably training like in the '20s, including welding classes and all .

Haha yes, JV probably has images of Pinot out training carrying a spare tyre around his shoulders and stopping every few minutes to turn his wheel round to access his 2nd gear.

Of course, I was being slightly disingenous about Pinot being on a full program earlier than the others. It seems the more unlikely scenario given what we know about the history of the teams. The problem is with all the smoke and mirrors environment that doping creates - there's always more than one way to look at any specfic performance - and it's hard to be very confident either way.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Quintana was a huge talent already before becoming pro so yeah that was a pretty nonsensical statement by Tonton

 

[DanielSong39]

Excellent impersonation of a clean cyclist in the Tour de France - well done!

 

[el chava]

Quintana has repeatedly criticized the Colombian cycling federation for lack of doping controls and whatnot. Not that it means a thing regarding to his own practices now, but as he seems not very well liked among the administrators in Colombia they could probably dig something up if something had been going on before.

 

[Ataraxus]

Written this 4 years ago:

"I don't know if I'm the only one, but, in my mind I have questioned Quintana's age. His face gives the impression of a much older man.
And in Latin America (and Africa) they have this trend of manipulating sportsmen passports to show them as much younger in Europe hence to increase their contract values. (There are plenty of suchlike speculations about south-american footballers)
....
Anyway. His results will show in the forthcoming years whether Quintana has that development curve a 25 year old should have in cycling. Hope my suspicions are wrong though. "

His development curve from 2013 onward doesn't look like the one of a 24 years old. Neither does his face .

 

[ppanther92]

Re:

Written this 4 years ago:

"I don't know if I'm the only one, but, in my mind I have questioned Quintana's age. His face gives the impression of a much older man.
And in Latin America (and Africa) they have this trend of manipulating sportsmen passports to show them as much younger in Europe hence to increase their contract values. (There are plenty of suchlike speculations about south-american footballers)
....
Anyway. His results will show in the forthcoming years whether Quintana has that development curve a 25 year old should have in cycling. Hope my suspicions are wrong though. "

His development curve from 2013 onward doesn't look like the one of a 24 years old. Neither does his face .

Ine possible explanation for sure. Something happened with him - he only prepared for the Tour this year and still is way off from his early career performances. Not only result wise (you could blame that on increased competition), but also from a personal point (much slower than some years ago).

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Written this 4 years ago:

"I don't know if I'm the only one, but, in my mind I have questioned Quintana's age. His face gives the impression of a much older man.
And in Latin America (and Africa) they have this trend of manipulating sportsmen passports to show them as much younger in Europe hence to increase their contract values. (There are plenty of suchlike speculations about south-american footballers)
....
Anyway. His results will show in the forthcoming years whether Quintana has that development curve a 25 year old should have in cycling. Hope my suspicions are wrong though. "

His development curve from 2013 onward doesn't look like the one of a 24 years old. Neither does his face .

Ine possible explanation for sure. Something happened with him - he only prepared for the Tour this year and still is way off from his early career performances. Not only result wise (you could blame that on increased competition), but also from a personal point (much slower than some years ago).

Quintana's issue is he's a climber and 55-60kg climbers simply don't win the Tour de France where every climb is raced at threshold, 70-75kg all-rounders do. He should aim for Vuelta and Landa for Tour exclusively where their natural physiology can be used accordingly.

 

[QuickZulu]

Maybe he's just clean these days.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Written this 4 years ago:

"I don't know if I'm the only one, but, in my mind I have questioned Quintana's age. His face gives the impression of a much older man.
And in Latin America (and Africa) they have this trend of manipulating sportsmen passports to show them as much younger in Europe hence to increase their contract values. (There are plenty of suchlike speculations about south-american footballers)
....
Anyway. His results will show in the forthcoming years whether Quintana has that development curve a 25 year old should have in cycling. Hope my suspicions are wrong though. "

His development curve from 2013 onward doesn't look like the one of a 24 years old. Neither does his face .

Ine possible explanation for sure. Something happened with him - he only prepared for the Tour this year and still is way off from his early career performances. Not only result wise (you could blame that on increased competition), but also from a personal point (much slower than some years ago).

Quintana's issue is he's a climber and 55-60kg climbers simply don't win the Tour de France where every climb is raced at threshold, 70-75kg all-rounders do. He should aim for Vuelta and Landa for Tour exclusively where their natural physiology can be used accordingly.

Except that all top 10 riders are in under 70kg.

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

Written this 4 years ago:

"I don't know if I'm the only one, but, in my mind I have questioned Quintana's age. His face gives the impression of a much older man.
And in Latin America (and Africa) they have this trend of manipulating sportsmen passports to show them as much younger in Europe hence to increase their contract values. (There are plenty of suchlike speculations about south-american footballers)
....
Anyway. His results will show in the forthcoming years whether Quintana has that development curve a 25 year old should have in cycling. Hope my suspicions are wrong though. "

His development curve from 2013 onward doesn't look like the one of a 24 years old. Neither does his face .

Ine possible explanation for sure. Something happened with him - he only prepared for the Tour this year and still is way off from his early career performances. Not only result wise (you could blame that on increased competition), but also from a personal point (much slower than some years ago).

Quintana's issue is he's a climber and 55-60kg climbers simply don't win the Tour de France where every climb is raced at threshold, 70-75kg all-rounders do. He should aim for Vuelta and Landa for Tour exclusively where their natural physiology can be used accordingly.

It may be that he never wins a tour because of this but he's been a hell of a lot closer in the past. Have things really changed so significantly in the sport since 2013 or his last near misses in 2015/6 that he's now a top 10 rider rather than a podium contender?

I don't think they have - something has changed with him.

 

[samhocking]

I'm talking generally. i.e. Armstrong 75kg, Lemond 74kg, Merckx 74kg, Wiggins 72kg, Froome 68kg, Evans 68kg, Contador 62kg. Heavier riders generally win Tour de France. Only sub 60kg climber like Quintana to win Tour de France in last 30 years is Pantani and i'm not sure how comparable Pantani's exploits are to anything we see today anyway. You have to go back to Luis Ocaña in 70's to find the next sub 60kg climber to win Tour

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

I'm talking generally. i.e. Armstrong 75kg, Lemond 74kg, Merckx 74kg, Wiggins 72kg, Froome 68kg, Evans 68kg, Contador 62kg. Heavier riders generally win Tour de France. Only sub 60kg climber like Quintana to win Tour de France in last 50 years is Pantani and i'm not sure how comparable Pantani's exploits are to anything we see today anyway. You have to go back to Luis Ocaña in 70's to find the next sub 60kg climber to win Tour

Sastre too.

You also have to consider that any guy below 60kg is a massive outlier in the general male population, so naturally there's a smaller talent pool in the sub-60 group than in the 65-70 group.

 

[samhocking]

Sastre is a bit of anomaly perhaps due to Puerto. ie no Armstrong, Ullrich, Contador, Leipheimer, Basso and a shed load of EPO positives too in the race of course. I'd say his win was more a survival of anti-doping as much as bending the norm for a climber to win Tour.

 

[SeriousSam]

As simoni said, Quintana's body type can't account for his rank in the peloton now compared to a few years ago

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Besides, many of those earlier Tours won by heavier guys had 2 long, flat ITT stages. Quintana is out here losing the Tour in the mountains.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

I'm talking generally. i.e. Armstrong 75kg, Lemond 74kg, Merckx 74kg, Wiggins 72kg, Froome 68kg, Evans 68kg, Contador 62kg. Heavier riders generally win Tour de France. Only sub 60kg climber like Quintana to win Tour de France in last 30 years is Pantani and i'm not sure how comparable Pantani's exploits are to anything we see today anyway. You have to go back to Luis Ocaña in 70's to find the next sub 60kg climber to win Tour

It's hard to compare like against like across history since:
a) there's been a steady reduction in flat ITT km over time (TTT is less important because a mountain goat can sit at the back and get a free tow)
b) we're clearly in a different Clinic era now - in the 90's riders could increase power with EPO while maintaining weight - now it's about maintaining power while decreasing weight
c) it's a much smaller factor but as bike weight comes down the weight of the rider becomes more important - today's bikes are 3kg lighter than ones from the mid-90's - if the 6.8 rule was abolished Quintana would get a further benefit.

I think if Quintana was on a different team with better DS and as undisputed leader he would have won the Tour at least once by now.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

Sastre too.

You also have to consider that any guy below 60kg is a massive outlier in the general male population, so naturally there's a smaller talent pool in the sub-60 group than in the 65-70 group.

Yep, sub 60 is a tiny part of the pro-peloton, indeed, Sastre was probably borderline or even not sub 60?

This makes sense considering the disadvantage of relatively heavy organs (and bike for that matter). Wattage per KG won't scale enough at a certain size. Clearly being over 1.90 limits your potential as a rider, but there's also a lower limit around 1.70 (a bit smaller is doable, but rare indeed, especially winning a GT becomes rare).

Also, pointing to longer ultra thin climbers as obvious chargers is logical (they are), but the very few truly light climbers who did well (Pantani, Rasmussen) are among the really worst.

So indeed, Quintana is much less a logical GC candidate than people think. He's so small, yet he does well (did well), which is actually not in line with cycling's history. Even a super talent as Herrera only managed to win one GT.

 

[telencefalus]

not much change from 2015 to 2018 in terms of how the peloton ride the problem is nairo preparation and doping program that seems not effective
yesterday he was 3 minutes slower than 2015

 

[Franklin]

b) we're clearly in a different Clinic era now - in the 90's riders could increase power with EPO while maintaining weight

I'm not 100% convinced that this is the right description. Yes, we have the examples of Riis and Indurain, but the ability of flea-weights to actually mix it up is just as strange. People forget that flea-weight climbers seldom did that well in the GC (Herrera as talented exception). Winning stages? yep. but podium on a GC? Rare indeed.

Strangely enough EPO seems to have benefited the physical outliers in the sport. Both a Pantani as Indurain clearly benefited tremendously of Epo, yet they couldn't have been more separated in physique.

- Indurain became a climber
- Pantani not only became resilient, he als became a regular top-ten TT guy

Epo truly is a swiss-knife drug.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

I'm talking generally. i.e. Armstrong 75kg, Lemond 74kg, Merckx 74kg, Wiggins 72kg, Froome 68kg, Evans 68kg, Contador 62kg. Heavier riders generally win Tour de France. Only sub 60kg climber like Quintana to win Tour de France in last 50 years is Pantani and i'm not sure how comparable Pantani's exploits are to anything we see today anyway. You have to go back to Luis Ocaña in 70's to find the next sub 60kg climber to win Tour

Sastre too.

You also have to consider that any guy below 60kg is a massive outlier in the general male population, so naturally there's a smaller talent pool in the sub-60 group than in the 65-70 group.

This is an important point. It's far more likely that out of all the 65-75kg cyclists you'll find a few who can TT and climb, hence we have TD, CF, Thomas, LA, Ullrich etc.