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Mar 18, 2009
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I think the discovery of that discarded transfusion equipment is having quite an effect on RadioShack - and I'm not sure a gift of a bike with a dodgy paint job can guarantee it all goes away.

Bruyneel has absolutely no idea how to develop talented young riders - no doubt if Boonen had stayed he'd still have been riding for somebody else. Brajkovic is a case in point - how many 'next big things' (Popovych also springs to mind) has Bruyneel got his hands on and completely wasted? Brajkovic & Machado could have gone to the Giro but the fact is Bruyneel's too scared of it as a race, has had no success there (let's remember that the Disco wins were masterminded by Yates) and knows it would cruelly expose his team. Yet it would give those younger riders, essential for team development, the chance to gain much needed experience. Instead they will be prostituted carting a fat old man up the climbs of France because his hubris won't let it go.

The really interesting development is how quickly teams seem to be moving away from the 'Bruyneel Model' of TdF preparation. The bio passport seems to have achieved a levelling of the playing field - of course riders are still doping but within far more constrained parameters. Talent not whether you're a good responder is beginning to make the difference and moving riders away from the need for 'specialisation' (i.e. restricted racing schedules based around depositing and reinjecting blood) towards fuller racing programmes. It's interesting that the Giro are claiming the fullest testing programme ever, using labs including Chateau Malabry (the UCI will only be using a lab in Geneva). I've no doubt we'll see a miraculous transformation in Armstrong's form come July but his credibility will suffer when he cannot compete with riders who have been present for most of the season.

The bottom line is - use critical questioning when dealing with any utterances from the Boss Hog camp.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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bianchigirl said:
Bruyneel has absolutely no idea how to develop talented young riders - no doubt if Boonen had stayed he'd still have been riding for somebody else. Brajkovic is a case in point - how many 'next big things' (Popovych also springs to mind) has Bruyneel got his hands on and completely wasted? Brajkovic & Machado could have gone to the Giro but the fact is Bruyneel's too scared of it as a race, has had no success there (let's remember that the Disco wins were masterminded by Yates) and knows it would cruelly expose his team. Yet it would give those younger riders, essential for team development, the chance to gain much needed experience. Instead they will be prostituted carting a fat old man up the climbs of France because his hubris won't let it go.


I think he has done a decent job with cultivating talent he has had. Boonen is different as he is a classics rider and is of no use for a GT team with aims at the GC.

Doping issues aside, Hamilton, Landis, CVV, Levi, Hincapie, Heras.... these are all talented riders who did well developing under Johann, whether you love or hate any of them. Guiding them through the bulk of their careers, his teams advanced their abilities.

I think the reason no other teams use the "Bruyneel" method of tour prep, or season planning, is because his teams have been uniquely focused on the Anglo/North American Market. The USA cares so little about cycling, but that small part that does only see July, and that is where the $ is, for LA, Johann, etc.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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bianchigirl said:
I think the discovery of that discarded transfusion equipment is having quite an effect on RadioShack - and I'm not sure a gift of a bike with a dodgy paint job can guarantee it all goes away.
I'll cut short the quote a bit, but the whole thing was well said. And I'm glad the Giro plans thorough testing. Come to think of it, I'm still waiting to hear results of the re-tests from 2008. It sounds especially good compared to the UCI's not allowing the AFLD to be involved at the Tour. I was just researching something I won't link to, but stumbled across this unfortunate quote from the UCI:

“The 2007 Tour de France suffered greatly from doping problems,” the UCI said in a statement Tuesday. “This was directly related to the significant increase in the number of anti-doping controls."

So the lesson to be learned is: the way to keep the Tour de France from suffering greatly from doping problems...:rolleyes:
 
theswordsman said:
I was just researching something I won't link to, but stumbled across this unfortunate quote from the UCI:

“The 2007 Tour de France suffered greatly from doping problems,” the UCI said in a statement Tuesday. “This was directly related to the significant increase in the number of anti-doping controls."

So the lesson to be learned is: the way to keep the Tour de France from suffering greatly from doping problems...:rolleyes:

Wow, I haven't read that quote before, but that was shocking.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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theswordsman said:
I'll cut short the quote a bit, but the whole thing was well said. And I'm glad the Giro plans thorough testing. Come to think of it, I'm still waiting to hear results of the re-tests from 2008. It sounds especially good compared to the UCI's not allowing the AFLD to be involved at the Tour. I was just researching something I won't link to, but stumbled across this unfortunate quote from the UCI:



So the lesson to be learned is: the way to keep the Tour de France from suffering greatly from doping problems...:rolleyes:

Swordsman, let me ask you a series of questions, as I think the answers could be fun to understand.

1. Do you decide where you obtain your clothing or shoes from based on the corporate responsibility of the manufacturer/brand?

2. Are you vegan?

3. If you own an automobile, is it a hybrid?

4. Do you contribute to causes/charities?

5. Are you religious?

6. What kind of music do you like?
 
Colm.Murphy said:
Swordsman, let me ask you a series of questions, as I think the answers could be fun to understand.

1. Do you decide where you obtain your clothing or shoes from based on the corporate responsibility of the manufacturer/brand?

2. Are you vegan?

3. If you own an automobile, is it a hybrid?

4. Do you contribute to causes/charities?

5. Are you religious?

6. What kind of music do you like?

Why don't you send him a Personal Message?
 
Mar 9, 2010
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flicker said:
Spanky, it is March not July. By the way how is Alfalfa?

the rascals are doing fine. thanks for asking.;)

not sure what you mean, but yes it is march, and we should be talking about how great oscar and matti are! in races that matter. on teams that matter.

i assume you mean that we can only judge the shack by their results in july, the only month that matters? that is certainly the RS party line.

that's cool if you think that. i don't happen to share that vision for cycling.
 

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Aug 17, 2009
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spanky wanderlust said:
the rascals are doing fine. thanks for asking.;)

not sure what you mean, but yes it is march, and we should be talking about how great oscar and matti are! in races that matter. on teams that matter.

i assume you mean that we can only judge the shack by their results in july, the only month that matters? that is certainly the RS party line.

that's cool if you think that. i don't happen to share that vision for cycling.

I would begin to judge the shack when they ride the classics in April.

In my eyes those races are more indicitive of their class. (Shack)

Armstrong/Pharmstrong Shack do their own training in private. It is how Armstrong has always done it. It looks like its been effective over the years. Don't tell me Andy Schleck is going to suck in the Tour because he is injured now.

Like I have said before Armstrong is a Trickster. Same as Ulrich was in the past.
 
Mar 9, 2010
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bianchigirl said:
I think the discovery of that discarded transfusion equipment is having quite an effect on RadioShack - and I'm not sure a gift of a bike with a dodgy paint job can guarantee it all goes away.

Bruyneel has absolutely no idea how to develop talented young riders - no doubt if Boonen had stayed he'd still have been riding for somebody else. Brajkovic is a case in point - how many 'next big things' (Popovych also springs to mind) has Bruyneel got his hands on and completely wasted? Brajkovic & Machado could have gone to the Giro but the fact is Bruyneel's too scared of it as a race, has had no success there (let's remember that the Disco wins were masterminded by Yates) and knows it would cruelly expose his team. Yet it would give those younger riders, essential for team development, the chance to gain much needed experience. Instead they will be prostituted carting a fat old man up the climbs of France because his hubris won't let it go.

The really interesting development is how quickly teams seem to be moving away from the 'Bruyneel Model' of TdF preparation. The bio passport seems to have achieved a levelling of the playing field - of course riders are still doping but within far more constrained parameters. Talent not whether you're a good responder is beginning to make the difference and moving riders away from the need for 'specialisation' (i.e. restricted racing schedules based around depositing and reinjecting blood) towards fuller racing programmes. It's interesting that the Giro are claiming the fullest testing programme ever, using labs including Chateau Malabry (the UCI will only be using a lab in Geneva). I've no doubt we'll see a miraculous transformation in Armstrong's form come July but his credibility will suffer when he cannot compete with riders who have been present for most of the season.

The bottom line is - use critical questioning when dealing with any utterances from the Boss Hog camp.

i agree to a certain extent with the bold. certainly boonen did not belong there. i think he definitely knows how to develop a rider and identify riders that will thrive under his system. that's just not where the emphasis is. the end result is the same, if you are young and talented, stay away from the Hog.

i'm confused. armstrong has credibility? did i miss a tweet?
 
flicker said:
I would begin to judge the shack when they ride the classics in April.

In my eyes those races are more indicitive of their class. (Shack)

Armstrong/Pharmstrong Shack do their own training in private. It is how Armstrong has always done it. It looks like its been effective over the years. Don't tell me Andy Schleck is going to suck in the Tour because he is injured now.

Like I have said before Armstrong is a Trickster. Same as Ulrich was in the past.

The Classics!!! Who are their Classiscs riders and where have then been up till now. Seriously, which of their riders is going to take a Classic. Steegmans, their best bet is injured is he not.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
Doping issues aside, Hamilton, Landis, CVV, Levi, Hincapie, Heras.... these are all talented riders who did well developing under Johann, whether you love or hate any of them. Guiding them through the bulk of their careers, his teams advanced their abilities.

Not sure what you mean by developing under Johann, but Heras joined Discovery in 2001. He had been 6th in the Giro 99, 3rd in Vuelta 99, 5th in Tour 2000 and winner of Vuelta 2000. He did not develop under Johann. I'd say he was locked in the safe by Johann/Lance with big money :cool:
 
Mar 9, 2010
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Colm.Murphy said:
Doping issues aside, Hamilton, Landis, CVV, Levi, Hincapie, Heras.... these are all talented riders who did well developing under Johann, whether you love or hate any of them. Guiding them through the bulk of their careers, his teams advanced their abilities.
.

huh? can you do that? that's overlooking a lot, especially given the list you provided. this list proves bianchigirl's point more than yours, sorry.

doping issues aside, each and every one of these guys is a retail bike salesman, if you ask me. we'll have to take any further discussion of this to the clinic.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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The Sky/Shack comparison is an intereting one. Has anyone seen Team Sky this season? I'm not just talking about victories either, nearly all the races I've watched sky has tried to do something, and been visible in the peloton doing something. I'm not even a Sky fan, but when you consider these are the 2 big money teams starting this seasoncomparing them seems fair. 2011 what do we expect from each team?
 
Feb 21, 2010
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icefire said:
Not sure what you mean by developing under Johann, but Heras joined Discovery in 2001. He had been 6th in the Giro 99, 3rd in Vuelta 99, 5th in Tour 2000 and winner of Vuelta 2000. He did not develop under Johann. I'd say he was locked in the safe by Johann/Lance with big money :cool:

Ok, I'll buy that, sure. And Levi was moving around as well. Popo developed there somewhat.

I think for someone to claim Bruyneel, despite the fact that the team is a one-trick pony, cannot identify, develop and harvest talented riders, is wrong.

I am not a fan of the guy but that is me.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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spanky wanderlust said:
huh? can you do that? that's overlooking a lot, especially given the list you provided. this list proves bianchigirl's point more than yours, sorry.

doping issues aside, each and every one of these guys is a retail bike salesman, if you ask me. we'll have to take any further discussion of this to the clinic.

Well, in comparison to any other DS, all of which can get strung to doping affairs here and there, you've got to assess them on their face. That the only way to do it.

Consider Bruyneel/LA hired the implicated Basso, paid him salary, training camps, UCI races, and then he was fired/suspended. As a talent, if you can, most teams would be interested in bringing Basso in. They went and did it.

There have also been busts, like Danielson.
Based on your comment, if being tied to doping is your criteria, which ProTour rider is NOT a retail bike salesman?
 
Mar 9, 2010
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flicker said:
I would begin to judge the shack when they ride the classics in April.

In my eyes those races are more indicitive of their class. (Shack)

Armstrong/Pharmstrong Shack do their own training in private. It is how Armstrong has always done it. It looks like its been effective over the years. Don't tell me Andy Schleck is going to suck in the Tour because he is injured now.

Like I have said before Armstrong is a Trickster. Same as Ulrich was in the past.

armstrong is a trickster, it's true. but this time the only thing he is hiding is his bad form, me thinks. i don't question his methods. obviously, he is a seven time champ. he knows what he is doing. i hope he shows up for the race and that his form is coming along where it is supposed to be. hope he gets in a dig for us old men everywhere. i even hope he wins amstel this year like he always wanted. i just don't see it happening.

and, i hope the shack proves me wrong in april. i will gladly eat my words if they show some class in the ardennes.

and yeah, i do think andy is in a bit of a spot (lance is prolly peeing his pants with glee over it). it is certainly not ideal to have knee problems this time of year. just ask jan. but andy is young and can recover in time for a good tour. fingers crossed.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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flicker said:
I would begin to judge the shack when they ride the classics in April.

In my eyes those races are more indicitive of their class. (Shack)

Armstrong/Pharmstrong Shack do their own training in private. It is how Armstrong has always done it. It looks like its been effective over the years. Don't tell me Andy Schleck is going to suck in the Tour because he is injured now.

Like I have said before Armstrong is a Trickster. Same as Ulrich was in the past.

Ullrich a trickster? how? the year he won the tour he raced more kilometres than any other year, was in shape all year. Then all those years he was coming 2nd, he was out of shape early in the season and struggle to arrive at race weight and then came 2nd...are you suggesting this is Lance's elaborate plan to come 2nd? Granted thats better than I rate his chances.

Comparing himself to other years, he's not toooo far off his best. Look at the murcia TT. It looks that if he raced himself in the past he'd have lost by 30 seconds. He now admits he is 3kg over weight. Which probably accounts for that 30 seconds and why he can TT 30 seconds away from his best, but it is more obvious he's out of shape up a cat 1. Unfortunately for Armstrong, Contador is not Jan, and is not overweight, and is looking strong already. Lance will get better, but at this rate the best he can do is 2nd.
 
Mar 9, 2010
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BikeCentric said:
If by Ulrich being a "trickster" you mean he was good at the old "make the doughnuts disappear from the bakery" trick then yes I agree with you.


i thought he meant the "if i retire now they can never sanction me" routine! that was a good one.
 

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Aug 17, 2009
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karlboss said:
Ullrich a trickster? how? the year he won the tour he raced more kilometres than any other year, was in shape all year. Then all those years he was coming 2nd, he was out of shape early in the season and struggle to arrive at race weight and then came 2nd...are you suggesting this is Lance's elaborate plan to come 2nd? Granted thats better than I rate his chances.

Comparing himself to other years, he's not toooo far off his best. Look at the murcia TT. It looks that if he raced himself in the past he'd have lost by 30 seconds. He now admits he is 3kg over weight. Which probably accounts for that 30 seconds and why he can TT 30 seconds away from his best, but it is more obvious he's out of shape up a cat 1. Unfortunately for Armstrong, Contador is not Jan, and is not overweight, and is looking strong already. Lance will get better, but at this rate the best he can do is 2nd.

I agree unless andy and alberto don,t show up Lance will probably make 4th. I still think alberto might not show and andy cannot winthe tour.

When I say trickster I mean lying about training sandbagging breaking up with wife feigning sickness illness etc. A lot of pro athletes will do that like boxers and cyclists. Its all about psyching out the other athletes. Lance and Alberto sure have psyced this forum I reckon.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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flicker said:
I agree unless andy and alberto don,t show up Lance will probably make 4th. I still think alberto might not show and andy cannot winthe tour.

When I say trickster I mean lying about training sandbagging breaking up with wife feigning sickness illness etc. A lot of pro athletes will do that like boxers and cyclists. Its all about psyching out the other athletes. Lance and Alberto sure have psyced this forum I reckon.

Why wouldn't alberto show?
It would take real balls and form for Andy to take this tour or even come 2nd in my opinion, I don't think there is enough time to be taken in the mountains if he waits only for the mountain top finishes to defend in the TT. My hope is that he does, by showing some guts thinking outside the box and really attacking from a long way out in the mountains.

In my opinion Lance would be best served by slaving as an obviously loyal teammate to who ever is strongest on the team, even feign he is leader give Kloden a breakaway and then defend what time he gets. May even win back a few here. Really is their only chance of winning the tour.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
Doping issues aside, Hamilton, Landis, CVV, Levi, Hincapie, Heras.... these are all talented riders who did well developing under Johann

Hincapie I'll give you but the rest especially CVV and Heras got the majority of their victories on other teams, he's had far more busts than developing great riders
 

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Aug 17, 2009
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I think Lances only realistic goal is to capture the yellow early on the cobbles to show he still has the right stuff. I do not think Lance is gracious enough to work for another in the overall.. To bad I would respect him if he did.