Remco Evenepoel

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Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
I think people are being confused by actual talent, it’s been so long since we’ve seen it. Is he clean? Who knows, but this performance doesn’t shed new light on that, he’s been riding pros off his wheels from the front all summer. There is zero evidence of motor doping. Let’s not lose our minds here folks.
I hope it's true, Remco, MvP, Pogacar, Bernal, Van Aert; does genuine talent shine again in cycling?

I want to believe it's real, but it's difficult.
 
Re: Re:

GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).

With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.

Sprinting is sprinting and there are multiple factors aside from doping that factor into winning any specific stage. The reason for Alaphilippe doping being fairly obvious is simply because he should NEVER have been able to hang onto the jersey for as long as he did in the first place. Without the doping he would have lost the yellow jersey long before he finally dropped. No matter the doping program it can only cover so much. Alaphilippe WITHOUT the doping should NOT have been in the top 5 by the end of the Pyrenees forget the Alps. We've seen time and again in 1 week stage races he always drops minutes on the first major mountain stage.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).

With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.

Sprinting is sprinting and there are multiple factors aside from doping that factor into winning any specific stage. The reason for Alaphilippe doping being fairly obvious is simply because he should NEVER have been able to hang onto the jersey for as long as he did in the first place. Without the doping he would have lost the yellow jersey long before he finally dropped. No matter the doping program it can only cover so much. Alaphilippe WITHOUT the doping should NOT have been in the top 5 by the end of the Pyrenees forget the Alps. We've seen time and again in 1 week stage races he always drops minutes on the first major mountain stage.
"Sprinting is sprinting." Possibly the most epic outburst of stupidity on any cycling forum ever. Who do you think will sprint better after a 200 km stage at 45 km/h? The 'prepared' guy or the other one?
Mas: Where's your source that he was sick?
Alaphilippe: Speculation. He never had to defend a yellow jersey in the past. Putting your claims in upper case doesn't grant you any credibility.
 
Re: Re:

GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).

With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.

Sprinting is sprinting and there are multiple factors aside from doping that factor into winning any specific stage. The reason for Alaphilippe doping being fairly obvious is simply because he should NEVER have been able to hang onto the jersey for as long as he did in the first place. Without the doping he would have lost the yellow jersey long before he finally dropped. No matter the doping program it can only cover so much. Alaphilippe WITHOUT the doping should NOT have been in the top 5 by the end of the Pyrenees forget the Alps. We've seen time and again in 1 week stage races he always drops minutes on the first major mountain stage.
"Sprinting is sprinting." Possibly the most epic outburst of stupidity on any cycling forum ever. Who do you think will sprint better after a 200 km stage at 45 km/h? The 'prepared' guy or the other one?
Mas: Where's your source that he was sick?
Alaphilippe: Speculation. He never had to defend a yellow jersey in the past. Putting your claims in upper case doesn't grant you any credibility.
Aside from it being said DURING the broadcast of 2 stages of the Tour it was widely stated in the cycling media he was sick along with DQS confirming when asked on live TV that he was sick. By the way Alaphilippe HAS been in the leaders jersey in MANY stage races over the years and has NEVER been able to defend those. Thanks for showing YOU don't pay attention and showing you have no credibility.
 
Re: Re:

spalco said:
red_flanders said:
I think people are being confused by actual talent, it’s been so long since we’ve seen it. Is he clean? Who knows, but this performance doesn’t shed new light on that, he’s been riding pros off his wheels from the front all summer. There is zero evidence of motor doping. Let’s not lose our minds here folks.
I hope it's true, Remco, MvP, Pogacar, Bernal, Van Aert; does genuine talent shine again in cycling?

I want to believe it's real, but it's difficult.
I think we are seeing genuine talent shining. Doesn't mean anyone's clean for sure, but it's certainly a nice change from watching also-ran riders turn into world beaters in their late 20's.
 
Re: Re:

GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).
The bolded remains un-answered.

The notion that he was "on better stuff than the other Juniors"...well...how on earth could you possibly know that, and how would that explain why he rose to the top so fast, and has already started winning at the top level of the sport? It doesn't. He's not some mediocre rider who is so much more doped than everyone else, he's a huge talent. If you think he is more doped that everyone else, you kind of need to explain how and/or why that would be the case. Seems a massive stretch. Can't imagine those who find talent in the junior ranks have all been fooled, or that somehow he's got the secret to some dope no one else has...at 19. Fairly ludicrous.

Regarding the idea that "some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all"...are you asserting that most are? How do we know or even suspect this? If most are, and I am not suggesting this is the case, what would that indicate about Evenepoel's talent?

I think people are offering overly simplistic notions about how doping actually works on these teams, and in both the junior and pro ranks. All the evidence we have from riders who have outlined their doping history is that even team-wide programs don't include all riders, that it didn't generally start until a few years into their pro careers, and that team-wide programs are the exception rather than the rule anymore.

Are the guys winning GT's all likely on the sauce? Of course, the recovery needs alone and the all-too-often absurd performances strongly suggest this. All top 10's in the classics? Seems fairly unlikely. Most big classic winners? Probably. Most juniors? Convince us.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).

With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.

Sprinting is sprinting and there are multiple factors aside from doping that factor into winning any specific stage. The reason for Alaphilippe doping being fairly obvious is simply because he should NEVER have been able to hang onto the jersey for as long as he did in the first place. Without the doping he would have lost the yellow jersey long before he finally dropped. No matter the doping program it can only cover so much. Alaphilippe WITHOUT the doping should NOT have been in the top 5 by the end of the Pyrenees forget the Alps. We've seen time and again in 1 week stage races he always drops minutes on the first major mountain stage.
"Sprinting is sprinting." Possibly the most epic outburst of stupidity on any cycling forum ever. Who do you think will sprint better after a 200 km stage at 45 km/h? The 'prepared' guy or the other one?
Mas: Where's your source that he was sick?
Alaphilippe: Speculation. He never had to defend a yellow jersey in the past. Putting your claims in upper case doesn't grant you any credibility.
Aside from it being said DURING the broadcast of 2 stages of the Tour it was widely stated in the cycling media he was sick along with DQS confirming when asked on live TV that he was sick. By the way Alaphilippe HAS been in the leaders jersey in MANY stage races over the years and has NEVER been able to defend those. Thanks for showing YOU don't pay attention and showing you have no credibility.
1. Asking for a source doesn't mean that I refute the claim. Do you understand? Some people have full time jobs and can't watch every single stage in full.
2. Alaphilippe had never been in the yellow jersey and I explicitely mentioned 'yellow'. Maybe I should have highlighted it for you.
 
I think the simple most likely explanation would be tremendous talent + early bloomer + doping. They were talking about his massive training load last year already, which makes it no surprise he is nowhere near where you expect a 19 year old to be. I have no idea what a doping program for a junior would look like, but right now I imagine he's definitely doped up to the standard of DQS, which is probably pretty high compared to the field.
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).
The bolded remains un-answered.

The notion that he was "on better stuff than the other Juniors"...well...how on earth could you possibly know that, and how would that explain why he rose to the top so fast, and has already started winning at the top level of the sport? It doesn't. He's not some mediocre rider who is so much more doped than everyone else, he's a huge talent. If you think he is more doped that everyone else, you kind of need to explain how and/or why that would be the case. Seems a massive stretch. Can't imagine those who find talent in the junior ranks have all been fooled, or that somehow he's got the secret to some dope no one else has...at 19. Fairly ludicrous.

Regarding the idea that "some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all"...are you asserting that most are? How do we know or even suspect this? If most are, and I am not suggesting this is the case, what would that indicate about Evenepoel's talent?

I think people are offering overly simplistic notions about how doping actually works on these teams, and in both the junior and pro ranks. All the evidence we have from riders who have outlined their doping history is that even team-wide programs don't include all riders, that it didn't generally start until a few years into their pro careers, and that team-wide programs are the exception rather than the rule anymore.

Are the guys winning GT's all likely on the sauce? Of course, the recovery needs alone and the all-too-often absurd performances strongly suggest this. All top 10's in the classics? Seems fairly unlikely. Most big classic winners? Probably. Most juniors? Convince us.

I'm assuming we don't know how many are or aren't. However to think none are would be naive.
By the way if being a huge talent means NOT doping, then Contador and Valverde would have NEVER doped. Thus being a huge talent means nothing and has been proven to mean nothing when it comes to doping.
 
Re: Re:

GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
GuntherL said:
GuntherL said:
Koronin said:
He very well could have been on better stuff than the other Juniors (and some of the Juniors likely aren't on anything at all) and now he's on DQS's program which we know is near if not at the top and has been for at least 2-3 years now. Yes I think it's possible not all the Juniors are on anything as this goes back to the early 2000's and Spain where it was known that some of the Junior and amateur teams were not doping while other ones were.
Some questions:
- Why was he the only Belgian junior who excelled like this?
- If DQS's program is so good, why did Mas disappoint in the TdF? Why was Viviani outsprinted by Ewan? Why didn't Alaphilippe hang on to his lead? (his top ten position was only saved by the cancellation of cols in the Alps).

With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.

Sprinting is sprinting and there are multiple factors aside from doping that factor into winning any specific stage. The reason for Alaphilippe doping being fairly obvious is simply because he should NEVER have been able to hang onto the jersey for as long as he did in the first place. Without the doping he would have lost the yellow jersey long before he finally dropped. No matter the doping program it can only cover so much. Alaphilippe WITHOUT the doping should NOT have been in the top 5 by the end of the Pyrenees forget the Alps. We've seen time and again in 1 week stage races he always drops minutes on the first major mountain stage.
"Sprinting is sprinting." Possibly the most epic outburst of stupidity on any cycling forum ever. Who do you think will sprint better after a 200 km stage at 45 km/h? The 'prepared' guy or the other one?
Mas: Where's your source that he was sick?
Alaphilippe: Speculation. He never had to defend a yellow jersey in the past. Putting your claims in upper case doesn't grant you any credibility.
Aside from it being said DURING the broadcast of 2 stages of the Tour it was widely stated in the cycling media he was sick along with DQS confirming when asked on live TV that he was sick. By the way Alaphilippe HAS been in the leaders jersey in MANY stage races over the years and has NEVER been able to defend those. Thanks for showing YOU don't pay attention and showing you have no credibility.
1. Asking for a source doesn't mean that I refute the claim. Do you understand? Some people have full time jobs and can't watch every single stage in full.
2. Alaphilippe had never been in the yellow jersey and I explicitely mentioned 'yellow'. Maybe I should have highlighted it for you.[/quote]

Again Alaphilippe has NEVER proven he can climb in ANY stage race with GC riders before this Tour and has HAD many opportunities. Doing it ONLY at the Tour is a big red flag. Please show where he has EVER shown the ability to climb in a stage race for GC. Tour of California and KOM titles do NOT count. Peter Sagan won GC at T of Cali. Unless you want to claim Sagan can race for GC at the Tour you CANNOT use that one. Sorry if YOU don't like that. Not my problem you can't DVR the stages and watch later. I'm fairly sure most people have jobs and oh in the US we are usually WORKING when the stages are being raced live. You claim of working full time is nothing more than an excuse. If you really wanted to watch you'd have found a way to watch. Also this is a team with KNOWN doctors who have had their hand in doping for YEARS.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.
Lefevre flatout denied Mas was sick on prime time Belgian TV, a day or so after his no-show in the TDF. He even brought it up himself saying "we don't know why, but he wasn't sick or anything".

I have absolutely no idea why he would say that if it were to lie about it. If it was to fool everybody (and with what goal), he probably should have said it in English to Eurosport.
 
Re:

F_Cance said:
Not sure when the last time was i saw something like that and i don't think that "i wasn't feeling good, but then the legs got better" is a sufficient explanation.
I don't know where you got the "all of a sudden the legs felt better" part. He never said that, in fact, if you look at his face on the final part of the climb, he looks ready to puke and drop dead. Before he counters Skujins' attack, you can see him communicate with Mas or Devenyns. Clearly he made the move first and foremost as a team tactic to protect Mas (the fact that he was carrying bottles supports that notion). He said he didn't feel good all day, but he knew the watts he could push on the last climb. He did an extensive recon of this climb. According to Peeters (prior to the race) he was dropping the entire team on that climb during recon.

Regarding coming back twice. If indeed there was a mechanical issue causing him to drop too far back, having to chase back, it's perfectly possible he got caught behind a split twice by dangling too far back. Both times he got dropped it was within a few minutes. He gets back, after an effort, doesn't move up immediately and catches his breath, only to be caught behind another split. Movistar was already pushing the pedal and a lot of riders were getting dropped. Considering he attacks 5k later, this seems like a more likely scenario than him getting dropped because he isn't good enough, but is good enough to attack 5 minutes later. Only other explanation for that would be motordoping (which i don't buy). Not even EPO would explain that. * * EDIT * * A guy on twitter checked the footage, and as it turns out, Remco climbed the penultimate climb exactly as fast ast the head of the peloton (Mas & co). He had lost a lot of positions prior to the climb, started the actual climb exactly 10 seconds behind Mas. On the top of the climb, he was exactly... 10 seconds behind Mas. I posted an image in the non-clinic Evenepoel topic.

But, i have some questions regarding his CSS win in general to everyone here. If somebody in the peloton had attacked early on the last climb, and either caught him, or came really close, would you be asking the same questions? All he basically did, was survive 500 meters longer than Skujins (who by the way got over the top with the chasers). Granted, Skujins is a fine pro, but i'll go out on a limb and assume he wasn't exactly on anybody's list for this race and he weighs 9kg more than Remco.

When the others attacked, his lead dropped more than 10s (most he had was 48s and at one time it had dropped to 32 seconds iirc) until they started looking around again, but there were only 3 half hearted attacks: a joke attack by Valverde, a somewhat solid but short effort by Konrad and only Carthy going all in, but too late. For the rest, the climb was managed by movistar doms who had already died twice, and a 20 year old Hirschi, who is simply not in the same league as Evenepoel (and never was).

Mas was probably the strongest in the race, considering the how fresh he looked in the front all day, and how easily he countered every attack. He also played a big role imho by shutting everyone down.

Did he win because he was stronger than the others, or because he was less "dead" (has superior recuperation) after a heavy race and for some, a hard TDF? Keep in mind while others were dying in TDF, he had his first ever altitude camp which would be paying off about now (Adriatica Ionica came too soon imho).

If it were Bernal instead of Evenepoel, would you assume the same? Why not (if so).
Additionally, are we here because of his age? What age would have been acceptable for his tour-de-force? Would we be asking questions had it been Mas? Konrad? Valverde? How does this relate to Hirshi leading the chase in the final, who is only one year older, and less talented and how does it relate to Skujins who weighs 9kg more and only gets dropped 500m sooner? Was this (basically 30 minute) effort more impressive for a 19 year old, than winning the TDF is for a 22 year old?

As for motordoping accusations, imho those are laughable, because easy to detect and you always need a bike change. The added weight from a motor and batteries you have to drag along the entire race (especially in the mountains) is not factored out by the short time you can actually use the motor. You simply aren't going to drag +/- 7kg extra uphill all day, just to be able to use your turbo in the final or so 30k imho. I'm not buying this for a second.

Just like how van der Poel won Amstel, i think we need to look at the context. How the race unfolded. The fact that Hirschi and Skujins (and GVA) are all still there at the top of the last climb, to me shows the pace was simply not high enough in the chasing group/peloton. This (imho) is due to Mas doing a great job, looking like the best rider in the race and intimidating others (by how fresh he looked) that attacking was futile. How fresh were the Movistar and Astana guys?

Assuming he's doped, are we assuming the rest of the peloton isn't doped? Or not doped as much? Why would they dope "a little"? Wouldn't you dope as much as possible without getting caught, or not at all? So, does Quickstep have some secret recipe that is better and less detectable? This seems rather naive imho. Because if not, surely after 130 wins in 2 years, they would have been caught at least once? Surely it'd be a matter of time? Why aren't riders who rode for Quickstep previously, giving their secrets to their new team doctors? If those teams don't dope, why would they attract former DQS riders, since they got their results due to dope? If you are looking for a new top sprinter, and you know/assume Gaviria is doped (because i assume other teams know when a team is doping, there are dozens of transfers every year, staff going from one team to another), and there will be a massive drop in results. What's the use in persuing DQS riders? Why are DQS riders generally the most coveted in the peloton?

I could see how DQS docs are ahead of the curve for a short time, until other teams catch up (and lead). I don't believe this can last for basically decades. Drugs & meds are being produced and researched all over the world by dozens of labs. Somehow DQS always has the best and latest, before anybody else. Even better, without the other teams/doctors ever finding out, or being approched by the manufacturers saying "hey, this is the stuff DQS uses, undetectable and results are guaranteed". The only explanation would be, that they are bribing/blackmailing high up the foodchain, and nothing ever gets out. In an age of anonymous whistleblowers, hackers, untracable IP addresses, i also find this hard to believe.
 
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Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
F_Cance said:
Not sure when the last time was i saw something like that and i don't think that "i wasn't feeling good, but then the legs got better" is a sufficient explanation.
I don't know where you got the "all of a sudden the legs felt better" part. He never said that, in fact, if you look at his face on the final part of the climb, he looks ready to puke and drop dead. Before he counters Skujins' attack, you can see him communicate with Mas or Devenyns. Clearly he made the move first and foremost as a team tactic to protect Mas (the fact that he was carrying bottles supports that notion). He said he didn't feel good all day, but he knew the watts he could push on the last climb.

Regarding coming back twice. If indeed there was a mechanical issue causing him to drop too far back, having to chase back, it's perfectly possible he got caught behind a split twice by dangling too far back. Both times he got dropped it was within a few minutes. He gets back, after an effort, doesn't move up immediately and catches his breath, only to be caught behind another split. Movistar was already pushing the pedal and a lot of riders were getting dropped. Considering he attacks 5k later, this seems like a more likely scenario than him getting dropped because he isn't good enough, but is good enough to attack 5 minutes later. Only other explanation for that would be motordoping (which i don't buy). Not even EPO would explain that.

But, i have some questions regarding his CSS win in general to everyone here. If somebody in the peloton had attacked early on the last climb, and either caught him, or came really close, would you be asking the same questions? All he basically did, was survive 500 meters longer than Skujins (who by the way got over the top with the chasers). Granted, Skujins is a fine pro, but i'll go out on a limb and assume he wasn't exactly on anybody's list for this race and he weighs 9kg more than Remco.

When the others attacked, his lead dropped more than 10s (most he had was 48s and at one time it had dropped to 32 seconds iirc) until they started looking around again, but there were only 3 half hearted attacks: a joke attack by Valverde, a somewhat solid but short effort by Konrad and only Carthy going all in, but too late. For the rest, the climb was managed by movistar doms who had already died twice, and a 20 year old Hirschi, who is simply not in the same league as Evenepoel (and never was).

Mas was probably the strongest in the race, considering the how fresh he looked in the front all day, and how easily he countered every attack. He also played a big role imho by shutting everyone down.

Did he win because he was stronger than the others, or because he was less "dead" (has superior recuperation) after a heavy race and for some, a hard TDF? Keep in mind while others were dying in TDF, he had his first ever altitude camp which would be paying off about now (Adriatica Ionica came too soon imho).

If it were Bernal instead of Evenepoel, would you assume the same? Why not (if so).
Additionally, are we here because of his age? What age would have been acceptable for his tour-de-force? Would we be asking questions had it been Mas? Konrad? Valverde? How does this relate to Hirshi leading the chase in the final, who is only one year older, and less talented and how does it relate to Skujins who weighs 9kg more and only gets dropped 500m sooner? Was this (basically 30 minute) effort more impressive for a 19 year old, than winning the TDF is for a 22 year old?

As for motordoping accusations, imho those are laughable, because easy to detect and you always need a bike change. The added weight from a motor and batteries you have to drag along the entire race (especially in the mountains) is not factored out by the short time you can actually use the motor. You simply aren't going to drag +/- 7kg extra uphill all day, just to be able to use your turbo in the final or so 30k imho. I'm not buying this for a second.

Just like how van der Poel won Amstel, i think we need to look at the context. How the race unfolded. The fact that Hirschi and Skujins (and GVA) are all still there at the top of the last climb, to me shows the pace was simply not high enough in the chasing group/peloton. This (imho) is due to Mas doing a great job, looking like the best rider in the race and intimidating others (by how fresh he looked) that attacking was futile. How fresh were the Movistar and Astana guys?

Assuming he's doped, are we assuming the rest of the peloton isn't doped? Or not doped as much? Why would they dope "a little"? Wouldn't you dope as much as possible without getting caught, or not at all? So, does Quickstep have some secret recipe that is better and less detectable? This seems rather naive imho. Because if not, surely after 130 wins in 2 years, they would have been caught at least once? Surely it'd be a matter of time? Why aren't riders who rode for Quickstep previously, giving their secrets to their new team doctors? If those teams don't dope, why would they attract former DQS riders, since they got their results due to dope? If you are looking for a new top sprinter, and you know/assume Gaviria is doped (because i assume other teams know when a team is doping, there are dozens of transfers every year, staff going from one team to another), and there will be a massive drop in results. What's the use in persuing DQS riders? Why are DQS riders generally the most coveted in the peloton?

I could see how DQS docs are ahead of the curve for a short time, until other teams catch up (and lead). I don't believe this can last for basically decades. Drugs & meds are being produced and researched all over the world by dozens of labs. Somehow DQS always has the best and latest, before anybody else. Even better, without the other teams/doctors ever finding out, or being approched by the manufacturers saying "hey, this is the stuff DQS uses, undetectable and results are guaranteed". The only explanation would be, that they are bribing/blackmailing high up the foodchain, and nothing ever gets out. In an age of anonymous whistleblowers, hackers, untracable IP addresses, i also find this hard to believe.
Good post....all of the questions you pose about DQS doping generally could be equally asked in relation to Sky/Ineos domination of GT's over the last decade, and the doping accusations/assumptions that come with it.
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
I think the simple most likely explanation would be tremendous talent + early bloomer + doping. They were talking about his massive training load last year already, which makes it no surprise he is nowhere near where you expect a 19 year old to be. I have no idea what a doping program for a junior would look like, but right now I imagine he's definitely doped up to the standard of DQS, which is probably pretty high compared to the field.
I have to agree with you on most points, I also have the impression that he's an early bloomer from a physical standpoint. He looks like a kid who stopped growing at a young age and had more time to grow into his frame. With his Football background he probably also had a decent strength and conditioning programm at a young age, unlike nearly all other guys who compete in cycling at that age.
 
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brownbobby said:
Logic-is-your-friend said:
F_Cance said:
Not sure when the last time was i saw something like that and i don't think that "i wasn't feeling good, but then the legs got better" is a sufficient explanation.
I don't know where you got the "all of a sudden the legs felt better" part. He never said that, in fact, if you look at his face on the final part of the climb, he looks ready to puke and drop dead. Before he counters Skujins' attack, you can see him communicate with Mas or Devenyns. Clearly he made the move first and foremost as a team tactic to protect Mas (the fact that he was carrying bottles supports that notion). He said he didn't feel good all day, but he knew the watts he could push on the last climb.

Regarding coming back twice. If indeed there was a mechanical issue causing him to drop too far back, having to chase back, it's perfectly possible he got caught behind a split twice by dangling too far back. Both times he got dropped it was within a few minutes. He gets back, after an effort, doesn't move up immediately and catches his breath, only to be caught behind another split. Movistar was already pushing the pedal and a lot of riders were getting dropped. Considering he attacks 5k later, this seems like a more likely scenario than him getting dropped because he isn't good enough, but is good enough to attack 5 minutes later. Only other explanation for that would be motordoping (which i don't buy). Not even EPO would explain that.

But, i have some questions regarding his CSS win in general to everyone here. If somebody in the peloton had attacked early on the last climb, and either caught him, or came really close, would you be asking the same questions? All he basically did, was survive 500 meters longer than Skujins (who by the way got over the top with the chasers). Granted, Skujins is a fine pro, but i'll go out on a limb and assume he wasn't exactly on anybody's list for this race and he weighs 9kg more than Remco.

When the others attacked, his lead dropped more than 10s (most he had was 48s and at one time it had dropped to 32 seconds iirc) until they started looking around again, but there were only 3 half hearted attacks: a joke attack by Valverde, a somewhat solid but short effort by Konrad and only Carthy going all in, but too late. For the rest, the climb was managed by movistar doms who had already died twice, and a 20 year old Hirschi, who is simply not in the same league as Evenepoel (and never was).

Mas was probably the strongest in the race, considering the how fresh he looked in the front all day, and how easily he countered every attack. He also played a big role imho by shutting everyone down.

Did he win because he was stronger than the others, or because he was less "dead" (has superior recuperation) after a heavy race and for some, a hard TDF? Keep in mind while others were dying in TDF, he had his first ever altitude camp which would be paying off about now (Adriatica Ionica came too soon imho).

If it were Bernal instead of Evenepoel, would you assume the same? Why not (if so).
Additionally, are we here because of his age? What age would have been acceptable for his tour-de-force? Would we be asking questions had it been Mas? Konrad? Valverde? How does this relate to Hirshi leading the chase in the final, who is only one year older, and less talented and how does it relate to Skujins who weighs 9kg more and only gets dropped 500m sooner? Was this (basically 30 minute) effort more impressive for a 19 year old, than winning the TDF is for a 22 year old?

As for motordoping accusations, imho those are laughable, because easy to detect and you always need a bike change. The added weight from a motor and batteries you have to drag along the entire race (especially in the mountains) is not factored out by the short time you can actually use the motor. You simply aren't going to drag +/- 7kg extra uphill all day, just to be able to use your turbo in the final or so 30k imho. I'm not buying this for a second.

Just like how van der Poel won Amstel, i think we need to look at the context. How the race unfolded. The fact that Hirschi and Skujins (and GVA) are all still there at the top of the last climb, to me shows the pace was simply not high enough in the chasing group/peloton. This (imho) is due to Mas doing a great job, looking like the best rider in the race and intimidating others (by how fresh he looked) that attacking was futile. How fresh were the Movistar and Astana guys?

Assuming he's doped, are we assuming the rest of the peloton isn't doped? Or not doped as much? Why would they dope "a little"? Wouldn't you dope as much as possible without getting caught, or not at all? So, does Quickstep have some secret recipe that is better and less detectable? This seems rather naive imho. Because if not, surely after 130 wins in 2 years, they would have been caught at least once? Surely it'd be a matter of time? Why aren't riders who rode for Quickstep previously, giving their secrets to their new team doctors? If those teams don't dope, why would they attract former DQS riders, since they got their results due to dope? If you are looking for a new top sprinter, and you know/assume Gaviria is doped (because i assume other teams know when a team is doping, there are dozens of transfers every year, staff going from one team to another), and there will be a massive drop in results. What's the use in persuing DQS riders? Why are DQS riders generally the most coveted in the peloton?

I could see how DQS docs are ahead of the curve for a short time, until other teams catch up (and lead). I don't believe this can last for basically decades. Drugs & meds are being produced and researched all over the world by dozens of labs. Somehow DQS always has the best and latest, before anybody else. Even better, without the other teams/doctors ever finding out, or being approched by the manufacturers saying "hey, this is the stuff DQS uses, undetectable and results are guaranteed". The only explanation would be, that they are bribing/blackmailing high up the foodchain, and nothing ever gets out. In an age of anonymous whistleblowers, hackers, untracable IP addresses, i also find this hard to believe.
Good post....all of the questions you pose about DQS doping generally could be equally asked in relation to Sky/Ineos domination of GT's over the last decade, and the doping accusations/assumptions that come with it.
In case you have missed it, those same questions have been asked of Sky.
 
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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Koronin said:
With Mas he was sick for a few stages of the Tour and nothing is going to save you when you get sick.
Lefevre flatout denied Mas was sick on prime time Belgian TV, a day or so after his no-show in the TDF. He even brought it up himself saying "we don't know why, but he wasn't sick or anything".

I have absolutely no idea why he would say that if it were to lie about it. If it was to fool everybody (and with what goal), he probably should have said it in English to Eurosport.

No idea because that was not what was said and reported on English speaking broadcast. It was reported in several outlets that Mas had a stomach issue.
 
Apr 25, 2011
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This thread is stupid. It's the same with Mathieu Vdp and Wout Van Aert. He's a once in a lifetime kind of guy. His results don't come from nowhere, they are pretty much constant and it's like that ever since he decided to exchange his football shoes for a bike. Evidence in this thread: 0. Oh look, there's Yves Lampaert, ending on an anonymous 5th place. Yes, he's riding for the same DSQ-team, that team of aliens. Sigh....
 
Apr 25, 2011
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So we got 3 once in a lifetime guys in the same season?
Look at your nickname. Wasn't that the doped bike guy? Oh wait, there's no evidence. And yes, Mathieu, Wout and Aert are all pretty solid throughout their careers, with wins ever since they started doing what they're doing. Mathieu and Wout redefined the cyclocross.
It's easy for us, ain't it? We see a performance, we take our smartphones or our laptop and we're yelling 'this can't be true', denying talent, genetic predisposition and so many hours of training and sacrifice. You'll probably be pissed about my remark concerning your nickname. Imagine what it must feel like for a rider seeing his name here in a thread of 10 pages already. Remco has been among the most controlled cyclists in the past year, there's also the passport...so yes, the only real conclusion here was mentioned in the first post of this stupid thread. "full-blown alien". The fact that he's superprofessional for his age, breaking up with his girlfriend to move alone to Monaco/Andorra for better training parcours at an age of 19 (an age where most teenagers sit at home with mom and dad), that's all irrelevant.
 
I'll begin by admitting i've only read the headline result, so could be missing some important detail/context...but on the face of it this is an incredible result.

There is absolutely no doubt that this kid is one of the most naturally gifted youngsters i've ever seen in all my years of watching cycling....but even acknowledging that, such a comprehensive victory over seasoned world tour Pro's and TT specialists has to raise eyebrows.

If, as many still believe, most of the peloton are still doping, then i don't think its plausible that a 19 year old, no matter how talented can win like this clean.

I hope that's not the case,,,,i hope what we're seeing this year is genuinely talented youngsters shining because the sport has cleaned itself up.

Either way...good times to be a cycling fan
 
Apr 25, 2011
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Not full clean, but you can't deny there's been a shift. Youngsters used to have a hard time confirming their talent in pro cycling. When you were top in u23 in the 90's or the 00's, it was by no means a promise of making it big time in pro cycling. Then there was the fact of the real 'aliens', guys coming out of nowhere like Laiseka, Mosquera, Cobo etc...u23 world champion Hirschi confirmed his huge talent in San Sebastian, Bernal confirms his results of the U23 etc...you think all these guys are doped too?

Conclusion: no, cycling's probably not clean but it's way better than it used to be, maybe the cleanest since ages. You won't see guys like Indurain, winning ITT with 3/4 minutes in advance. We don't see guys coming from out of nowhere anymore, that's true right?
 

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