Remco Evenepoel

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Mar 11, 2010
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spalco said:
Being able to run around the pitch for longer than the others or having a large biceps won't make a talent stand out to the scouts.
Apart from the innumerable players who have been rejected at an early age because they are too slow or too small?

It not safe to assume that football clubs don't dope players (or players do it themselves) in my opinion. The financial rewards and glory are there to be had and there is no greater motivator to cheat.
 
Re: Re:

Roninho said:
I think there is massive doping in football.
Having said that i would be very surprised to see a club led doping programme at the youth teams of Anderlecht.
The simple reason for this is that over 90% of the 15 year olds at anderlecht will never play in the first team of anderlecht and 75% will not even make it for another pro team. Doping these kids when in 2-3 years time most will have been "sacked" by anderlechr seems like a recipe to get an unhappy kid to spill the beans on the doping effor.
especially with them being underaged they dont have to worry about legal risks.
Imo those risks make it a stupid plan to begin with, but it becomes even less attractive when you take into account thst the rewards will be minimal. We are talking about 1, maybe 2 kids of the team making it anyway, is that sufficient reward?
This is very well reasoned, especially these days when people care, or at least pretend to care, more about doping. I doubt they do much to discourage it, but I agree that's team-led doping programmes at the youth level in football seem quite unlikely.
 
Re: Re:

Arrowfarm said:
Maybe, just maybe it isn`t the team telling him to dope in his first years, but his own will to win. Maybe HE just wants it more, so he does what it takes. Or maybe the team has all the incentives in the world to help him with his doping.
And maybe you're just making assumptions and maybe he's not doping at all.

It's a recurring theme as far as you go back in Evenepoel 's history. As an early teenager, his teammates and trainers already understood he was on a completely different level with regards to stamina. How early exactly are you implying he started? Remco lacks punch, and even if we are assuming he is doped currently, it would still be safe to assume he has a natural stamina above average. Meaning it would (certainly in football, where they only run 12km per match) make a lot more sense to put him on something that improves his short burst efforts, and not his stamina (which he clearly has enough of, even if we consider he'd be doped). Now, years later, he still suffers with short punchy efforts (lab tests have shown his <15 minute efforts are by far his worst). There is nothing to suggest this isn't his natural progression. What would even be the goal of juicing him up to marathon-level stamina, just for playing football, running 12km over 90 minutes? Anderlecht didn't want him, because he lacked speed and punch. But he was probably too busy juicing to improve his already far above average stamina, to notice all the kids dropped him like a brick in a sprint?

He couldn't cope with other kids in his team, who were not putting in the work (words by one of his coaches). He wasn't a kid that took the easy way out.

He couldn't drop two fairly average riders (De Bondt & Wallays) at the end of a 140k break, last weekend, while he was clearly the strongest of the three, and after trying multiple times... because he lacked the punch. Starting to see a pattern?

The 1/2 marathon he ran, with NO incentives what so ever. Finishing 13th. (The day after a football game)

His father getting out of pro cycling because the opposition was doped and he wasn't.

Remco getting his training (prior to DQS) from the same trainer his father had (Fred Vandervennet), not known for doping his athletes. The man knew Remco since he was 4, and had been training him since he was 10.

His results under DQS follow the expectations he set under his former coach. There is no big discrepancy.

Somebody mentioned growth hormones. Remco is 1.71, roughly the same size as his father. Growth hormones reduce fat... has anybody seen Remco? He's definitely NOT lean.

His coach, well known in Belgium, was a marathon runner who put Remco on a different schedule with different training exercises compared to traditional training (which has recently been called into question after the Cyclocross boom). You can look up the articles in his topic in the non-clinic board. It would be very likely, that if he was doped, that Lefevre knew about it before getting him on board. Meaning, there would be no real way of telling, no real reference for what he can do. Do you think, that Lefevre is going to be jumping on the opportunity, against earlier arrangements of letting him go to Hagens Berman, if he's just a juiced up kid, of which they have no idea how good he actually is? Why would Lefevre, for the first time in forever, jump on an opportunity to reel in a kid that wants to go for GC, knowing he's just juiced?

Which incentives would the team have to put him on a dope program, before understanding where his natural limits lie? Which incentives would they have to send him to mellow races like Turkey, San Juan, Norway, Baloise Belgium Tour... which nobody cares about, while doped? He specifically doesn't want to lose weight yet, because he wants to wait before his body is fullgrown. But he does "want it so bad" that he takes dope instead. Your logic is flawed and you can't even see it.

Following that logic, where is the Pogacar thread? This kid is only 16 months older and winning ACTUAL World Tour STAGE races where he is already co-leading his team (which would imply his team is actually having expectations already). Only 12 months ago he was put at 70 seconds by Evenepoel in Brno on the same TT course, in 23km, while Evenepoel was riding junior gears. He was a mediocre TT'er at best as a junior. And now Pogacar is kicking Tratnik and Mohoric's asses. Pogacar, unlike Evenepoel, doesn't have a history that implies he would become a worldbeater. Compare his 2016 record to the 2018 record of Evenepoel, both their second junior year. While Evenepoel won every stage race he entered, Pogacar only finished 26th in the Peace Race, 11th Patton, 6th Pays de Vaud and won Lunigiana. The year later, he finished 41st in the U23 Peace race, 10 minutes down from Hayter & Hirschi, both his age. Surely Pogacar's rise to the top is every bit as suspicious? The fact that his team also already relies on him for these results (as if it's normal for him to put down these results) should be even more suspicious, according to your train of thought?

Feel free to put these through a google translator:
https://sporza.be/nl/2018/08/14/trainer-evenepoel/
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20170703_02954773
https://kw.knack.be/west-vlaanderen/sport/wielrennen/de-trainer-van-de-nieuwe-merckx-is-zowaar-een-west-vlaming/article-longread-320911.html
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-09-26/remco-evenepoel-18-is-de-belgische-wielersensatie-en-deed-er-goed-aan-anderlecht-te-verlaten
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-09-25/ook-jeugdcoach-bij-anderlecht-heeft-nog-bijzonder-straf-verhaal-over-remco-evenepoel?
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-10-03/remco-evenepoel-18-legde-drie-jaar-lang-340-kilometer-per-dag-af-om-bij-psv-te-voetballen?

Red Rick said:
Doping also enables you to recover better so you can actually increase your training load. Also you can start finetuning his program a bit early.

Unless we'd assume QS is wholly clean I don't see many reasons why Evenepoel would be. Still a great talent ofcourse, not denying that.
This is exactly what his (former) trainer was talking about. His natural abillity to cope with more training (Remco trained twice a day as a junior) where other kids would overtrain.
 
Not really contributing to the topic, but I really enjoy reading your posts/arguments, Logic-is-your-friend. Be it here or in the thread on the other part of the forum. Thanks for that. :)
 
Sep 27, 2017
1,041
4
2,485
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Arrowfarm said:
Maybe, just maybe it isn`t the team telling him to dope in his first years, but his own will to win. Maybe HE just wants it more, so he does what it takes. Or maybe the team has all the incentives in the world to help him with his doping.
And maybe you're just making assumptions and maybe he's not doping at all.

It's a recurring theme as far as you go back in Evenepoel 's history. As an early teenager, his teammates and trainers already understood he was on a completely different level with regards to stamina. How early exactly are you implying he started? Remco lacks punch, and even if we are assuming he is doped currently, it would still be safe to assume he has a natural stamina above average. Meaning it would (certainly in football, where they only run 12km per match) make a lot more sense to put him on something that improves his short burst efforts, and not his stamina (which he clearly has enough of, even if we consider he'd be doped). Now, years later, he still suffers with short punchy efforts (lab tests have shown his <15 minute efforts are by far his worst). There is nothing to suggest this isn't his natural progression. What would even be the goal of juicing him up to marathon-level stamina, just for playing football, running 12km over 90 minutes? Anderlecht didn't want him, because he lacked speed and punch. But he was probably too busy juicing to improve his already far above average stamina, to notice all the kids dropped him like a brick in a sprint?

He couldn't cope with other kids in his team, who were not putting in the work (words by one of his coaches). He wasn't a kid that took the easy way out.

He couldn't drop two fairly average riders (De Bondt & Wallays) at the end of a 140k break, last weekend, while he was clearly the strongest of the three, and after trying multiple times... because he lacked the punch. Starting to see a pattern?

The 1/2 marathon he ran, with NO incentives what so ever. Finishing 13th. (The day after a football game)

His father getting out of pro cycling because the opposition was doped and he wasn't.

Remco getting his training (prior to DQS) from the same trainer his father had (Fred Vandervennet), not known for doping his athletes. The man knew Remco since he was 4, and had been training him since he was 10.

His results under DQS follow the expectations he set under his former coach. There is no big discrepancy.

Somebody mentioned growth hormones. Remco is 1.71, roughly the same size as his father. Growth hormones reduce fat... has anybody seen Remco? He's definitely NOT lean.

His coach, well known in Belgium, was a marathon runner who put Remco on a different schedule with different training exercises compared to traditional training (which has recently been called into question after the Cyclocross boom). You can look up the articles in his topic in the non-clinic board. It would be very likely, that if he was doped, that Lefevre knew about it before getting him on board. Meaning, there would be no real way of telling, no real reference for what he can do. Do you think, that Lefevre is going to be jumping on the opportunity, against earlier arrangements of letting him go to Hagens Berman, if he's just a juiced up kid, of which they have no idea how good he actually is? Why would Lefevre, for the first time in forever, jump on an opportunity to reel in a kid that wants to go for GC, knowing he's just juiced?

Which incentives would the team have to put him on a dope program, before understanding where his natural limits lie? Which incentives would they have to send him to mellow races like Turkey, San Juan, Norway, Baloise Belgium Tour... which nobody cares about, while doped? He specifically doesn't want to lose weight yet, because he wants to wait before his body is fullgrown. But he does "want it so bad" that he takes dope instead. Your logic is flawed and you can't even see it.

Following that logic, where is the Pogacar thread? This kid is only 16 months older and winning ACTUAL World Tour STAGE races where he is already co-leading his team (which would imply his team is actually having expectations already). Only 12 months ago he was put at 70 seconds by Evenepoel in Brno on the same TT course, in 23km, while Evenepoel was riding junior gears. He was a mediocre TT'er at best as a junior. And now Pogacar is kicking Tratnik and Mohoric's asses. Pogacar, unlike Evenepoel, doesn't have a history that implies he would become a worldbeater. Compare his 2016 record to the 2018 record of Evenepoel, both their second junior year. While Evenepoel won every stage race he entered, Pogacar only finished 26th in the Peace Race, 11th Patton, 6th Pays de Vaud and won Lunigiana. The year later, he finished 41st in the U23 Peace race, 10 minutes down from Hayter & Hirschi, both his age. Surely Pogacar's rise to the top is every bit as suspicious? The fact that his team also already relies on him for these results (as if it's normal for him to put down these results) should be even more suspicious, according to your train of thought?

Feel free to put these through a google translator:
https://sporza.be/nl/2018/08/14/trainer-evenepoel/
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20170703_02954773
https://kw.knack.be/west-vlaanderen/sport/wielrennen/de-trainer-van-de-nieuwe-merckx-is-zowaar-een-west-vlaming/article-longread-320911.html
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-09-26/remco-evenepoel-18-is-de-belgische-wielersensatie-en-deed-er-goed-aan-anderlecht-te-verlaten
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-09-25/ook-jeugdcoach-bij-anderlecht-heeft-nog-bijzonder-straf-verhaal-over-remco-evenepoel?
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-10-03/remco-evenepoel-18-legde-drie-jaar-lang-340-kilometer-per-dag-af-om-bij-psv-te-voetballen?

Red Rick said:
Doping also enables you to recover better so you can actually increase your training load. Also you can start finetuning his program a bit early.

Unless we'd assume QS is wholly clean I don't see many reasons why Evenepoel would be. Still a great talent ofcourse, not denying that.
This is exactly what his (former) trainer was talking about. His natural abillity to cope with more training (Remco trained twice a day as a junior) where other kids would overtrain.
Excellent post
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
Why do natural limits matter anyway?
Because even if you'd want to start on the juice program, your natural limits are still the base? If a kid is already juiced, there is no knowing what his actual potential is. There is no frame of reference (assuming the other kids aren't juiced). Unless you mean you just want to label everybody YOU believe is exceeding the natural limits (in case you're an expert obviously) as a doper. So i'm not sure what you are getting at with this remark.

There is no athlete i would vouche for. But unless you think Evenepoel got started on the program when he was 12, and Lefevre being a complete idiot, the narrative makes little sense.

Another thing (and this also applies to van der Poel), which works like a double edged sword... is the dominance with which they win. At face value you are inclined to believe they must be doping. On the other hand, if they would actually be doping, wouldn't it make sense for them to do it in a less obvious fashion? They do doping tests in junior racing and cyclocross too. Instead of winning by 10 minutes (like Evenepoel at the EC 2018) wouldn't his entourage (or his common sense) tell him to tone it down a bit? These guys got tested more than your average pro peloton domestique.

Bolder said:
Age has almost zero to do with doping. There are tens of thousands of U.S. high school and college athletes who dope for football/baseball/basketball etc. When I was in college 30 years ago I had a close friend on the baseball team, and a bunch of their players were taking growth steroids on their own, mostly in the summer. It wasn't even an open secret. They bragged about it. These were 18- and 19 year old kids. (by the way, that stuff works)
Completely different cultures. In the US, a lot of those highschool kids get scholarships based on whatever sports they are competing in, to get into a university. It's cutthroat because a lot of kids don't have the money to go to college. In Belgium University is paid for 90% by the government.

And in the case of Remco, we're not talking about 18-19 years old. It's been brought up before, he ran a 1/2 marathon of Brussels without prep, when he was 16, and finished 13th. This was when he was still playing football (soccer) for Anderlecht, where a few months later they would kick him out of the team, because he wasn't fast enough. So if he had been doped, he should have started before that marathon. And he should clearly have been taking the wrong stuff, since it wasn't helping him with his actual physical limitations to become a football player.

Red Rick said:
I know from personal experience there's definitely juniors in sports who at least get advised by coaches to start using doping at a really early age, though I suppose 13 year olds taking growth hormones is more common in sports where height is a bigger advantage.

And I disagree that results don't matter at that age. In many sports kids do need to get results to keep funding from national associations if they can't pay for all the training and travel themselves.
Like i said, Remco is 1.71, roughly the same height as his father, and growth hormones are supposed to make you leaner/skinny. Which he is also definitely not.

Results (for youth teams) don't matter at Anderlecht. The former head of youth of Anderlecht is now head of youth of the team i support. He still has the same philosophy. It's about identifying talents and nurturing those. Going for results often favors the bigger kids, and leaves the more gifted, smaller, more technical players overlooked. They have literally thousands of youth players. They are the biggest and wealthiest club of the country. They are in no danger of not getting subsidized at all.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
Why do natural limits matter anyway?
Because even if you'd want to start on the juice program, your natural limits are still the base? If a kid is already juiced, there is no knowing what his actual potential is. There is no frame of reference (assuming the other kids aren't juiced). Unless you mean you just want to label everybody YOU believe is exceeding the natural limits (in case you're an expert obviously) as a doper. So i'm not sure what you are getting at with this remark.

There is no athlete i would vouche for. But unless you think Evenepoel got started on the program when he was 12, and Lefevre being a complete idiot, the narrative makes little sense.

Another thing (and this also applies to van der Poel), which works like a double edged sword... is the dominance with which they win. At face value you are inclined to believe they must be doping. On the other hand, if they would actually be doping, wouldn't it make sense for them to do it in a less obvious fashion? They do doping tests in junior racing and cyclocross too. Instead of winning by 10 minutes (like Evenepoel at the EC 2018) wouldn't his entourage (or his common sense) tell him to tone it down a bit? These guys got tested more than your average pro peloton domestique.

Bolder said:
Age has almost zero to do with doping. There are tens of thousands of U.S. high school and college athletes who dope for football/baseball/basketball etc. When I was in college 30 years ago I had a close friend on the baseball team, and a bunch of their players were taking growth steroids on their own, mostly in the summer. It wasn't even an open secret. They bragged about it. These were 18- and 19 year old kids. (by the way, that stuff works)
Completely different cultures. In the US, a lot of those highschool kids get scholarships based on whatever sports they are competing in, to get into a university. It's cutthroat because a lot of kids don't have the money to go to college. In Belgium University is paid for 90% by the government.

And in the case of Remco, we're not talking about 18-19 years old. It's been brought up before, he ran a 1/2 marathon of Brussels without prep, when he was 16, and finished 13th. This was when he was still playing football (soccer) for Anderlecht, where a few months later they would kick him out of the team, because he wasn't fast enough. So if he had been doped, he should have started before that marathon. And he should clearly have been taking the wrong stuff, since it wasn't helping him with his actual physical limitations to become a football player.

Red Rick said:
I know from personal experience there's definitely juniors in sports who at least get advised by coaches to start using doping at a really early age, though I suppose 13 year olds taking growth hormones is more common in sports where height is a bigger advantage.

And I disagree that results don't matter at that age. In many sports kids do need to get results to keep funding from national associations if they can't pay for all the training and travel themselves.
Like i said, Remco is 1.71, roughly the same height as his father, and growth hormones are supposed to make you leaner/skinny. Which he is also definitely not.

Results (for youth teams) don't matter at Anderlecht. The former head of youth of Anderlecht is now head of youth of the team i support. He still has the same philosophy. It's about identifying talents and nurturing those. Going for results often favors the bigger kids, and leaves the more gifted, smaller, more technical players overlooked. They have literally thousands of youth players. They are the biggest and wealthiest club of the country. They are in no danger of not getting subsidized at all.
I didn't say he started using at 12. I didn't say I thought he used HGH. I gave that anecdote to say it's not unheared of to dope in juniors. Do I think he did? Probably not.

I'm not saying he's not talented. He is. But I think a lot of the arguments to assert he is clean are based on wishfull thinking. I am also not saying everyone is doping, but I think that the higher you get the rarer clean athletes get. So if you do intend to win the biggest races in the world, why does the clean ceiling matter?

And as for all the 'his father didn't dope stuff'. He did sign with a team that works with Ibarguren.

I am also not saying he's much better than other 19 year olds because he is doping so much harder. Now that would be stupid. But I see no reason why he wouldn't be on the same program as the rest of the team.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
I'm not saying he's not talented. He is. But I think a lot of the arguments to assert he is clean are based on wishfull thinking.
Care to tell me on what exactly the arguments to assert he's doping are based on?

"He's too good".
"He's riding for Lefevre".
"Hahaha. WTF".


Right. Guilty until proven innocent. In other words: never.

I think i've made a better case, based on his history and the unlikely event that he started doping when he was 12 (with a completely wrong program that didn't help him with his actual weakness), than any of the arguments in this topic of why he would be doping. Talking about wishful thinking, i think a lot of people argueing him being on the program aren't exactly fans, and are indeed "thinking whisfully" and "hoping" to find reason to call him a doper. Proof be damned.

And like i said, i'm not seeing a big discrepancy between last year and now under DQS. Remember, he won the WC Junior ITT over +/- 28km with hilly profile at an average speed of exactly 50 km/u, on junior gears. Which was only marginally slower than his average speed in the nationals last week, on a completely flat course with wind (of 38k). In other words, saying he's doping under DQS, is saying he was doping before as well. His results fall completely in line with those when he ran the 1/2 Brussels Marathon when he was 16. So he must have been doping then too. So again, how far back are you willing to go, trying to "prove" (without proof) he must be (and have been) doping?

By the way, he told a story yesterday about when he was 7 years old, and participated in a cyclocross race. Since he wasn't officially registered, he had to start at the back. In the first few hundreds of meters, he overtook the entire peloton, and he was gone. Probably doped back then too.

PS: Hans Vandeweghe, investigative journalist, hardliner vs doping, former president of KBWB, writer of "Wie Gelooft Die Coureurs Nog?" (about doping in cycling, you can find most of the book online for free) veteran in sports journalism as well as cycling, and allround jackass, does not believe Remco is doped. Coming from a guy who's pointed fingers at basically everyone in the past, that's rather telling.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Red Rick said:
I'm not saying he's not talented. He is. But I think a lot of the arguments to assert he is clean are based on wishfull thinking.
Care to tell me on what exactly the arguments to assert he's doping are based on?

"He's too good".
"He's riding for Lefevre".
"Hahaha. WTF".


Right. Guilty until proven innocent. In other words: never.

I think i've made a better case, based on his history and the unlikely event that he started doping when he was 12 (with a completely wrong program that didn't help him with his actual weakness), than any of the arguments in this topic of why he would be doping. Talking about wishful thinking, i think a lot of people argueing him being on the program aren't exactly fans, and are indeed "thinking whisfully" and "hoping" to find reason to call him a doper. Proof be damned.

And like i said, i'm not seeing a big discrepancy between last year and now under DQS. Remember, he won the WC Junior ITT over +/- 28km with hilly profile at an average speed of exactly 50 km/u, on junior gears. Which was only marginally slower than his average speed in the nationals last week, on a completely flat course with wind (of 38k). In other words, saying he's doping under DQS, is saying he was doping before as well. His results fall completely in line with those when he ran the 1/2 Brussels Marathon when he was 16. So he must have been doping then too. So again, how far back are you willing to go, trying to "prove" (without proof) he must be (and have been) doping?

By the way, he told a story yesterday about when he was 7 years old, and participated in a cyclocross race. Since he wasn't officially registered, he had to start at the back. In the first few hundreds of meters, he overtook the entire peloton, and he was gone. Probably doped back then too.

PS: Hans Vandeweghe, investigative journalist, hardliner vs doping, former president of KBWB, writer of "Wie Gelooft Die Coureurs Nog?" (about doping in cycling, you can find most of the book online for free) veteran in sports journalism as well as cycling, and allround jackass, does not believe Remco is doped. Coming from a guy who's pointed fingers at basically everyone in the past, that's rather telling.
David Walsh thinks (thought?) Froome's clean after pointing the finger at a certain bogeyman.
 
Sep 17, 2013
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Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
Arrowfarm said:
Maybe, just maybe it isn`t the team telling him to dope in his first years, but his own will to win. Maybe HE just wants it more, so he does what it takes. Or maybe the team has all the incentives in the world to help him with his doping.
And maybe you're just making assumptions and maybe he's not doping at all.

It's a recurring theme as far as you go back in Evenepoel 's history. As an early teenager, his teammates and trainers already understood he was on a completely different level with regards to stamina. How early exactly are you implying he started? Remco lacks punch, and even if we are assuming he is doped currently, it would still be safe to assume he has a natural stamina above average. Meaning it would (certainly in football, where they only run 12km per match) make a lot more sense to put him on something that improves his short burst efforts, and not his stamina (which he clearly has enough of, even if we consider he'd be doped). Now, years later, he still suffers with short punchy efforts (lab tests have shown his <15 minute efforts are by far his worst). There is nothing to suggest this isn't his natural progression. What would even be the goal of juicing him up to marathon-level stamina, just for playing football, running 12km over 90 minutes? Anderlecht didn't want him, because he lacked speed and punch. But he was probably too busy juicing to improve his already far above average stamina, to notice all the kids dropped him like a brick in a sprint?

He couldn't cope with other kids in his team, who were not putting in the work (words by one of his coaches). He wasn't a kid that took the easy way out.

He couldn't drop two fairly average riders (De Bondt & Wallays) at the end of a 140k break, last weekend, while he was clearly the strongest of the three, and after trying multiple times... because he lacked the punch. Starting to see a pattern?

The 1/2 marathon he ran, with NO incentives what so ever. Finishing 13th. (The day after a football game)

His father getting out of pro cycling because the opposition was doped and he wasn't.

Remco getting his training (prior to DQS) from the same trainer his father had (Fred Vandervennet), not known for doping his athletes. The man knew Remco since he was 4, and had been training him since he was 10.

His results under DQS follow the expectations he set under his former coach. There is no big discrepancy.

Somebody mentioned growth hormones. Remco is 1.71, roughly the same size as his father. Growth hormones reduce fat... has anybody seen Remco? He's definitely NOT lean.

His coach, well known in Belgium, was a marathon runner who put Remco on a different schedule with different training exercises compared to traditional training (which has recently been called into question after the Cyclocross boom). You can look up the articles in his topic in the non-clinic board. It would be very likely, that if he was doped, that Lefevre knew about it before getting him on board. Meaning, there would be no real way of telling, no real reference for what he can do. Do you think, that Lefevre is going to be jumping on the opportunity, against earlier arrangements of letting him go to Hagens Berman, if he's just a juiced up kid, of which they have no idea how good he actually is? Why would Lefevre, for the first time in forever, jump on an opportunity to reel in a kid that wants to go for GC, knowing he's just juiced?

Which incentives would the team have to put him on a dope program, before understanding where his natural limits lie? Which incentives would they have to send him to mellow races like Turkey, San Juan, Norway, Baloise Belgium Tour... which nobody cares about, while doped? He specifically doesn't want to lose weight yet, because he wants to wait before his body is fullgrown. But he does "want it so bad" that he takes dope instead. Your logic is flawed and you can't even see it.

Following that logic, where is the Pogacar thread? This kid is only 16 months older and winning ACTUAL World Tour STAGE races where he is already co-leading his team (which would imply his team is actually having expectations already). Only 12 months ago he was put at 70 seconds by Evenepoel in Brno on the same TT course, in 23km, while Evenepoel was riding junior gears. He was a mediocre TT'er at best as a junior. And now Pogacar is kicking Tratnik and Mohoric's asses. Pogacar, unlike Evenepoel, doesn't have a history that implies he would become a worldbeater. Compare his 2016 record to the 2018 record of Evenepoel, both their second junior year. While Evenepoel won every stage race he entered, Pogacar only finished 26th in the Peace Race, 11th Patton, 6th Pays de Vaud and won Lunigiana. The year later, he finished 41st in the U23 Peace race, 10 minutes down from Hayter & Hirschi, both his age. Surely Pogacar's rise to the top is every bit as suspicious? The fact that his team also already relies on him for these results (as if it's normal for him to put down these results) should be even more suspicious, according to your train of thought?

Feel free to put these through a google translator:
https://sporza.be/nl/2018/08/14/trainer-evenepoel/
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20170703_02954773
https://kw.knack.be/west-vlaanderen/sport/wielrennen/de-trainer-van-de-nieuwe-merckx-is-zowaar-een-west-vlaming/article-longread-320911.html
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-09-26/remco-evenepoel-18-is-de-belgische-wielersensatie-en-deed-er-goed-aan-anderlecht-te-verlaten
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-09-25/ook-jeugdcoach-bij-anderlecht-heeft-nog-bijzonder-straf-verhaal-over-remco-evenepoel?
https://www.voetbalkrant.com/nieuws/2018-10-03/remco-evenepoel-18-legde-drie-jaar-lang-340-kilometer-per-dag-af-om-bij-psv-te-voetballen?

Red Rick said:
Doping also enables you to recover better so you can actually increase your training load. Also you can start finetuning his program a bit early.

Unless we'd assume QS is wholly clean I don't see many reasons why Evenepoel would be. Still a great talent ofcourse, not denying that.
This is exactly what his (former) trainer was talking about. His natural abillity to cope with more training (Remco trained twice a day as a junior) where other kids would overtrain.
Lols. And maybe you’re just making an assumption that he’s not doping. This is pro cycling where standout performances always have been doped performances.

Feel free to open up that podacar thread of yours. I’m not discussing him here.

I’m not going to repeat myself on incentives to dope in pro cycling. They are clear as day and you know it.

Have a nice day.
 
Re: Re:

wansteadimp said:
David Walsh thinks (thought?) Froome's clean after pointing the finger at a certain bogeyman.
While that may very well be the case, and while none of the arguments i've raised are proof in itself, i think they do at the very least show that there is a realistic possibility that he is in fact not doping, looking at all of them.

What would his accusers even consider proof? How can he prove he's not doping? He's been tested as a junior, dozens of times (before entering the "pro" entourage of DQS), his bike has been scanned dozens of times. All the people that are convinced he is doping, will remain to think he's been doping until he's 6 feet under, convinced "he just cheated the system". It's a hopeless discussion, one where one side will never be "proven" wrong.

Arrowfarm said:
Lols. And maybe you’re just making an assumption that he’s not doping. This is pro cycling where standout performances always have been doped performances.

Feel free to open up that podacar thread of yours. I’m not discussing him here.

I’m not going to repeat myself on incentives to dope in pro cycling. They are clear as day and you know it.

Have a nice day.
Exactly. "lolz". No arguments given. He's only been a pro cyclist for 6 months and hasn't delivered a standout performance as such. And not one that was not in line with his earlier achievements. There are literally no incentives to have him on a doping program at this time and you know it.

Thanks for proving my point. "He's guilty because i think he is".

And while you weren't discussing Pogacar, i wasn't discussing Walsh. Unless you can show me some results of Froome when he was a teenager, similar to those of Evenepoel, i don't feel i even need to go into this any further.
 
Sep 17, 2013
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Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
wansteadimp said:
David Walsh thinks (thought?) Froome's clean after pointing the finger at a certain bogeyman.
While that may very well be the case, and while none of the arguments i've raised are proof in itself, i think they do at the very least show that there is a realistic possibility that he is in fact not doping, looking at all of them.

What would his accusers even consider proof? How can he prove he's not doping? He's been tested as a junior, dozens of times (before entering the "pro" entourage of DQS), his bike has been scanned dozens of times. All the people that are convinced he is doping, will remain to think he's been doping until he's 6 feet under, convinced "he just cheated the system". It's a hopeless discussion, one where one side will never be "proven" wrong.

Arrowfarm said:
Lols. And maybe you’re just making an assumption that he’s not doping. This is pro cycling where standout performances always have been doped performances.

Feel free to open up that podacar thread of yours. I’m not discussing him here.

I’m not going to repeat myself on incentives to dope in pro cycling. They are clear as day and you know it.

Have a nice day.
Exactly. "lolz". No arguments given. He's only been a pro cyclist for 6 months and hasn't delivered a standout performance as such. And not one that was not in line with his earlier achievements. There are literally no incentives to have him on a doping program at this time and you know it.

Thanks for proving my point. "He's guilty because i think he is".

And while you weren't discussing Pogacar, i wasn't discussing Walsh. Unless you can show me some results of Froome when he was a teenager, similar to those of Evenepoel, i don't feel i even need to go into this any further.
Lols again.
You are aware, I hope, that I haven’t mentioned Walsh at all. Why the need to bring him up, to me?
There is a pretty long thread to discuss froome if you want to. Also one for walsh, by the way. Please go there to do so.

I’m not here to prove that Remco is doping. I’m here because the whole “no incentives for him/the team to dope” argument is deeply flawed. There are plenty as previously stated. Money/winning is the most obvious but in pro cycling, what is as important as talent, is how well a rider responds to various PEDs. First year as a pro on a doping team is actually a pretty good time to find out.

I have also stated that I’m not saying that he isn’t talented, so there’s that.

Have a good one.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
wansteadimp said:
David Walsh thinks (thought?) Froome's clean after pointing the finger at a certain bogeyman.
While that may very well be the case, and while none of the arguments i've raised are proof in itself, i think they do at the very least show that there is a realistic possibility that he is in fact not doping, looking at all of them.

What would his accusers even consider proof? How can he prove he's not doping? He's been tested as a junior, dozens of times (before entering the "pro" entourage of DQS), his bike has been scanned dozens of times. All the people that are convinced he is doping, will remain to think he's been doping until he's 6 feet under, convinced "he just cheated the system". It's a hopeless discussion, one where one side will never be "proven" wrong.

Arrowfarm said:
Lols. And maybe you’re just making an assumption that he’s not doping. This is pro cycling where standout performances always have been doped performances.

Feel free to open up that podacar thread of yours. I’m not discussing him here.

I’m not going to repeat myself on incentives to dope in pro cycling. They are clear as day and you know it.

Have a nice day.
Exactly. "lolz". No arguments given. He's only been a pro cyclist for 6 months and hasn't delivered a standout performance as such. And not one that was not in line with his earlier achievements. There are literally no incentives to have him on a doping program at this time and you know it.

Thanks for proving my point. "He's guilty because i think he is".

And while you weren't discussing Pogacar, i wasn't discussing Walsh. Unless you can show me some results of Froome when he was a teenager, similar to those of Evenepoel, i don't feel i even need to go into this any further.
But you were discussing: -


PS: Hans Vandeweghe, investigative journalist, hardliner vs doping, former president of KBWB, writer of "Wie Gelooft Die Coureurs Nog?" (about doping in cycling, you can find most of the book online for free) veteran in sports journalism as well as cycling, and allround jackass, does not believe Remco is doped. Coming from a guy who's pointed fingers at basically everyone in the past, that's rather telling.


Apparently the latest anti-doping journalist to go weak at the knees when a new star cyclist from his country appears - though in Walsh's case he was only writing in the star's adopted country.
 
Re: Re:

Arrowfarm said:
I’m not here to prove that Remco is doping. I’m here because the whole “no incentives for him/the team to dope” argument is deeply flawed. There are plenty as previously stated. Money/winning is the most obvious but in pro cycling, what is as important as talent, is how well a rider responds to various PEDs. First year as a pro on a doping team is actually a pretty good time to find out.

I have also stated that I’m not saying that he isn’t talented, so there’s that.

Have a good one.
What is the flaw in the argument?

Your argument seems to be, and correct me if I’m wrong, that because he’s a pro the team is incentivized to dope him, correct? That money and winning are enough? Why are the team keeping him out of all the big races? Are DQS so hard up for wins they’re going to start doping the youngest, most promising GT prospect they’ve ever had and risk ruining his career before it starts? We can rule out winning as an incentive for the team, due to the above, and we can add that he’s not even been the team leader when he’s won. So that doesn’t make sense.

Money means nothing to DQS with regard to Evenepoel, as no win he’s going to get in the second rate races he’s entered is going to make a difference to that outfit.

All the incentives at this point are to keep him clean, help him learn, keep him from over racing and over-cooking him. They seem to be getting some fairly nice wins without him, as many may have noticed.

Are they clean? Of course not. Are they doping all of their riders? Seems wildly unlikely. Will he be encouraged to take the “professional” approach later to take the next steps as a GT prospect? Almost undoubtedly. Doping him now? Pure folly. Do they have “no incentive” to dope him? No, not zero, but as close to it as one could imagine and every incentive not to.
 
Re: Re:

Arrowfarm said:
Lols again.
You are aware, I hope, that I haven’t mentioned Walsh at all. Why the need to bring him up, to me?
There is a pretty long thread to discuss froome if you want to. Also one for walsh, by the way. Please go there to do so.

I’m not here to prove that Remco is doping. I’m here because the whole “no incentives for him/the team to dope” argument is deeply flawed. There are plenty as previously stated. Money/winning is the most obvious but in pro cycling, what is as important as talent, is how well a rider responds to various PEDs. First year as a pro on a doping team is actually a pretty good time to find out.

I have also stated that I’m not saying that he isn’t talented, so there’s that.

Have a good one.
Got you mixed up with the other guy.

The flaw in your thinking, is that you are ignoring his history. There is no discrepancy between his current achievements, and what he did as a junior. Which in turn, falls in line with stories from his football years (not in the least, his marathon run).

You are only here to make the point that in some cases it makes sense to dope early. You've made your point, but your arguments just don't seem to apply to this particular rider, imho.


wansteadimp said:
Apparently the latest anti-doping journalist to go weak at the knees when a new star cyclist from his country appears - though in Walsh's case he was only writing in the star's adopted country.
I think Vandeweghe has been critical of plenty of countrymen. So that argument is junk. But ofcourse, this way you can dismiss any argument. While at the end of the day, you have nothing but baseless insinuations and accusations.
 
Remco will be moving to Monaco. Gilbert will be his de facto mentor :)



Google translated

"He cannot yet move permanently," says father Patrick. “He doesn't earn enough for that. It is the intention that he regularly visits his place in the south. He prefers today rather than tomorrow. For now there are still too many appointments on his sporting agenda, but after the season he will undoubtedly spend the winter there. ”
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That he gets homesick is unlikely, according to his father. "Philippe Gilbert will guide him there and introduce him to the local training clique, which consists of quite a few prominent names."

https://www.demorgen.be/sport/remco-evenepoel-verhuist-naar-monaco-ik-wil-bergop-kunnen-fietsen~b976a5e3/



. "Phil has taught me a lot. Like Iljo Keisse, I consider Phil my second father. We had a good discussion about the fact that in the near future I would be moving abroad to better train uphill."

If Gilbert has something to say, Evenepoel opens his ears wide. "His advice is useful. Of the current professional riders, he is the greatest champion." The respect is certainly mutual. "This was my first course together with Remco", Gilbert responds. "He is a phenomenon. In my seventeen years as a pro I have never seen anything like this."

https://www.msn.com/nl-be/sport/wielrennen/evenepoel-duidt-vaderfiguren-aan-bij-deceuninck-quick-step-van-huidige-profrenners-de-grootste-kampioen/ar-AAF0usj



Ha, this classic is still up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FgtgoO6Lsg
 
He's been "on" since Hammer Limburg, though. He was great before, as in a credible once in a lifetime-talent, but not alien-like, IMO. Then he disappointed at Romandie.

lol @ me thinking they wouldn't dope this guy in first pro season.
 

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