Remco Evenepoel

[Rackham]

And what, pray tell, does any of this have to do with the clinical issues related to this thread? I fail to see any relevance. I'm interested in sound arguments about doping here, not petty character attacks.

He could be doped up to his eyeballs, it doesn't matter, i.e. because unless he quits making bad statements in the media about his rivals & fixes some of his more egregious behavioral antics, he'll continue to create self-inflicted problems irrespective of how good his doping program is. That's the lesson.

Unless some here really do believe he made no mistakes in this Giro & without Covid would have been okay. At which point... shrugs I guess. It was a circus, end of.

 

[Extinction]

He could be doped up to his eyeballs, it doesn't matter, i.e. because unless he quits making bad statements in the media about his rivals & fixes some of his more egregious behavioral antics, he'll continue to create self-inflicted problems irrespective of how good his doping program is. That's the lesson.

Unless some here really do believe he made no mistakes in this Giro & without Covid would have been okay. At which point... shrugs I guess. It was a circus, end of.

But this is a doping related thread, for which I fail to see the connection with your opprobrium towards his supposed character flaws and the matters at hand. You do realize we're here to discuss clinical issues, no?

 

[Rackham]

But this is a doping related thread, for which I fail to see the connection with your opprobrium towards his supposed character flaws and the matters at hand. You do realize we're here to discuss clinical issues, no?

I doubt you are. You're just here with a sword, shield & Remco Evenepoel banner fighting the good fight. Carry on.

Here's a conundrum for you though based on your 'clinical matters only!' diktat, i.e. behavioral matters probably constitute something like... 80% of the Lance Armstrong case? Especially when you check his multiple threads here, aka it's all about his behavior, actions... & then the dope. It's all related.

Evenepoel is basically a quasi bully who only got away with his little verbal attack on Roglič & Jumbo last week because he's younger & the media have suspended their critical thinking in the name of "exciting prospect gets a free pass".

Just wait until Evenepoel is in his late 20's & accusing younger riders of being 'nervous' & he'll get appropriately called out.

 

[Extinction]

I doubt you are. You're just here with a sword, shield & Remco Evenepoel banner fighting the good fight. Carry on.

Here's a conundrum for you though based on your 'clinical matters only!' diktat, i.e. behavioral matters probably constitute something like... 80% of the Lance Armstrong case? Especially when you check his multiple threads here, aka it's all about his behavior, actions... & then the dope. It's all related.

Evenepoel is basically a quasi bully who only got away with his little verbal attack on Roglič & Jumbo last week because he's younger & the media have suspended their critical thinking in the name of "exciting prospect gets a free pass".

Just wait until Evenepoel is in his late 20's & accusing younger riders of being 'nervous' & he'll get appropriately called out.

You clearly suffer from a Remco induced nervous disorder, the evident signs of which indicate an acute stage that will lead to certain mental breakdown if not monitored closely. As far as doping is concerned, I wield no sword and shield to defend any pro cyclist, whilst have not taken Remco's side against anything that you've said about him; but only pointed out such attacks have nothing to do with a discussion over clinical issues. Let's leave Armstrong out of the discussion, because his doping and behavior were inextricably entwined, such that it was impossible to talk about Armstrong the doper, without analysing Armstrong the bully and vice versa.

 

[Akuryo]

It's a bit hilarious that you go on the offensive against me here... in a thread in which multiple people literally say Remco Evenepoel is a doper. I mean what gives?

My post was merely a realistic assessment of the how & where Quick-Step & Evenepoel himself went totally wrong with this Giro with problems ironically utterly unrelated to doping. Covid isn't an isolated incident because there's a sh*t load of nonsense which has been brewing for weeks now.

Blaming others after his crash on Wednesday before retracting those comments, claiming Roglič was 'nervous' on French Eurosport in an interview with Philippe Gilbert before retracting the comments the following day as well (rather disingenuously as well), boasting about winning sprints versus Rog, dropping Rog on a climb in Catalunya etc. etc.

It's all B.S. & added to the circus. His fans & media fuelled this as well & your hyper sensitivity (in a clinic thread!!!) is just more evidence of this.

He was comfortably leading the race before getting Covid and would've destroyed the field even further if healthy in the TT. I mean, he won being sick. Imagine the amount of time he would've put into them otherwise. But yeah, leading the race by basically the same margin as last year during the Vuelta would've obviously been an absolute disaster. Or to put it in your words, they went completely wrong into this Giro. Which was building a huge advantage that he just had to defend in the actual mountains. Same strategy that worked in his previous (victorious) GT by the way.

 

[Rackham]

He was comfortably leading the race before getting Covid and would've destroyed the field even further if healthy in the TT. I mean, he won being sick. Imagine the amount of time he would've put into them otherwise. But yeah, leading the race by basically the same margin as last year during the Vuelta would've obviously been an absolute disaster. Or to put it in your words, they went completely wrong into this Giro. Which was building a huge advantage that he just had to defend in the actual mountains. Same strategy that worked in his previous (victorious) GT by the way.

Cycling is about micromanaging small details. I hope for Evenepoel's sake he has some better advisors than some of his fans because there's a lot (this is an understatement) which needs to be ironed out before any further GT attempt, especially in races as hard as the Giro & the Tour which don't have the 'vamos a la playa' fun summer holiday factor of the Vuelta.

Even on Saturday he was telling the media he hoped to put the same amount of time into Rog as he did in the first ITT. This sort of bravado is so counterproductive it's mindboggling no one has sat down with him & said tone down the media statements about his rivals & claims like "I'm the strongest".

This isn't football. He's not Neymar or Cristiano Ronaldo. If he goes to the TdF with the exact same attitude & zero self-reflection (like having his wife at the side of the road as well like a celebrity couple), he will get chewed-up.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

This isn't football. He's not Neymar or Cristiano Ronaldo. If he goes to the TdF with the exact same attitude & zero self-reflection (like having his wife at the side of the road as well like a celebrity couple), he will get chewed-up.

Yeah, we all remember how Vingegaard lost last year, because he kept calling his girls after every stage. If Remco has the legs for it, he can win the Tour, no matter how much his behaviour might bug you.

 

[Rackham]

Yeah, we all remember how Vingegaard lost last year, because he kept calling his girls after every stage. If Remco has the legs for it, he can win the Tour, no matter how much his behaviour might bug you.

When Yvan Vanmol criticizes the Giro organization for the spread of Covid (& directly insinuated their 'unprofessionalism' caused Evenepoel's DNF), then yes there's a 'problem' in the form of a complete lack of self-awareness going on at Quick-Step: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/p...ns-op-besmetting-had-verkleind-moeten-worden/

At a time when Remco Evenepoel's wife was spreading hugs & kisses? They're always so quick to blame others & never check their own behavior.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, we all remember how Vingegaard lost last year, because he kept calling his girls after every stage. If Remco has the legs for it, he can win the Tour, no matter how much his behaviour might bug you.

How is that a rebuttal? Do you think Rackham's point would have applied if Remco only spoke with his wife over the phone while she stayed back in Belgium?

 

[Akuryo]

Cycling is about micromanaging small details. I hope for Evenepoel's sake he has some better advisors than some of his fans because there's a lot (this is an understatement) which needs to be ironed out before any further GT attempt, especially in races as hard as the Giro & the Tour which don't have the 'vamos a la playa' fun summer holiday factor of the Vuelta.

Even on Saturday he was telling the media he hoped to put the same amount of time into Rog as he did in the first ITT. This sort of bravado is so counterproductive it's mindboggling no one has sat down with him & said tone down the media statements about his rivals & claims like "I'm the strongest".

This isn't football. He's not Neymar or Cristiano Ronaldo. If he goes to the TdF with the exact same attitude & zero self-reflection (like having his wife at the side of the road as well like a celebrity couple), he will get chewed-up.

There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. And in my opinion, as long as you back up your words on the road, you can talk all the *** in the world. IF you get beaten soundly after such statements then it is fair game to be critizied. But Evenepoel did beat everyone in the TT even while being sick. So it wasn't really arrogance but just stating a fact.

 

[Riek s]

I doubt you are. You're just here with a sword, shield & Remco Evenepoel banner fighting the good fight. Carry on.

Here's a conundrum for you though based on your 'clinical matters only!' diktat, i.e. behavioral matters probably constitute something like... 80% of the Lance Armstrong case? Especially when you check his multiple threads here, aka it's all about his behavior, actions... & then the dope. It's all related.

Evenepoel is basically a quasi bully who only got away with his little verbal attack on Roglič & Jumbo last week because he's younger & the media have suspended their critical thinking in the name of "exciting prospect gets a free pass".

Just wait until Evenepoel is in his late 20's & accusing younger riders of being 'nervous' & he'll get appropriately called out.

How is he a bully? because he doesn't let anyone ride? because he appologizes afterwards when he is wrong? or because he gestures when someone doesn't want to take over?( that is being annoyed. Seen that of many famous riders like boonen, cancellera, Sagan, ...)
(FYI: a bully doesn't apologize)
verbal attack on Roglic and JV? by saying he seems nervous? ooh the horror!!! the verbal abuse! If roglic was so offended by someone saying he seems nervous as some of his fans, he would have stopped cycling on his first almost crash.

Do you find it bad if someone says he wants to take time in a TT, or wants to go for the Giro win? Or that his goal in the giro is taking time in the TT and follow Roglic in the mountains.. Its like Roglic saying i will try to attack and take time back.

FYI: on the last TT, Remco stated he expects to take seconds on Roglic with hopefully a minute. how is that trashtalk? he took 43seconds on 16km a couple of days before. And roglic didn't improve his TT on bit compared to then).

And dope and behaviour might have a corrolation with high testosterone abuse, but mostly its determined due to genetics and nurture.

 

[Salvarani]

Judging by what the last two days have opened up. I think it is a high probability Remco just started early with it. Shortly after his footballing career. He obviously has some talent in his own right... just enhanced with other stuff and they could see he could become one of the best. The rest is history.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Belgians seeing Vingegaard in the Tour this year: "Impossible, nobody can gain that much time from being aerodynamically perfect."

Belgians right now: "Well actually, Remco just has superhuman skin that's more aerodynamic than unbelievably expensive speedsuits!"

This is a 63 kg guy smashing wattage monsters like Ganna and Küng on the flats (see Giro stage 1 for reference) and somehow people are less inclined to question that than they are to question Vingegaard smashing a time trial with 600 vertical meters? The double standards.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Too be fair, Evenepoel is pretty aerodynamic on top of the excuse for Vinge doing so well wasn’t being aerodynamic. It was a host of things like his GI soft diet, no paint on the bike, better cornering, love, more love, not expanding any energy during the two weeks, etc.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Too be fair, Evenepoel is pretty aerodynamic on top of the excuse for Vinge doing so well wasn’t being aerodynamic. It was a host of things like his GI soft diet, no paint on the bike, better cornering, love, more love, not expanding any energy during the two weeks, etc.

Mate, what on earth are you talking about? Vingegaard is extremely aerodynamic! His CdA is ridiculously low, most likely on par with what we're seeing from Remco.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Mate, what on earth are you talking about? Vingegaard is extremely aerodynamic! His CdA is ridiculously low, most likely on par with what we're seeing from Remco.

Yes, he was very aerodynamic at the Tour TT with his legs hanging out like a chute.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Belgians seeing Vingegaard in the Tour this year: "Impossible, nobody can gain that much time from being aerodynamically perfect."

Belgians right now: "Well actually, Remco just has superhuman skin that's more aerodynamic than unbelievably expensive speedsuits!"

This is a 63 kg guy smashing wattage monsters like Ganna and Küng on the flats (see Giro stage 1 for reference) and somehow people are less inclined to question that than they are to question Vingegaard smashing a time trial with 600 vertical meters? The double standards.

Evenepoel is doing stuff he's been doing since he started cycling, while Vingegaard only realised he could do it after a few years at JV. Of course people will be more critical when a climber learns to time trial or a sprinter suddenly climbs like a dream, than when a known specialist does well in an ITT.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Yes, he was very aerodynamic at the Tour TT with his legs hanging out like a chute.

This would make a lot more sense if it was actually true. But it isn't. His legs aren't hanging anywhere when he's on the TT bike.

But anyways, don't take it from me then, take it from Mathias Norsgaard who touched upon it during today's broadcast on Danish TV. Norsgaard is a true TT nerd and he was in awe of Vingegaard's position on the TT bike. If you're genuinely going to claim to know more about it than Norsgaard, then go ahead, that's your right. I know whose opinion I value more.

Evenepoel is doing stuff he's been doing since he started cycling, while Vingegaard only realised he could do it after a few years at JV. Of course people will be more critical when a climber learns to time trial or a sprinter suddenly climbs like a dream, than when a known specialist does well in an ITT.

Ah, yes. It's a lot more believable that a guy who started cycling at 17 is doing this. Got it. That's logical.

By the way, Vingegaard finished 7th on a completely flat time trial four years ago, seven seconds slower than Mikkel Bjerg, beating out specialists like Lasse Norman Leth, with his incredible track pedigree, and Matthias Brändle. There's nothing "sudden" about Vingegaard's time trial improvements.

 

[roundabout]

it is actually a very interesting question how it is possible for Evenepoel to beat Ganna in a largely flat ITT.

a very ballpark estimate suggests that Evenepoel would have to produce about 10% more W/kg to do that

how realistic is that, I do not know.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Ah, yes. It's a lot more believable that a guy who started cycling at 17 is doing this. Got it. That's logical.

I never said that it was more believable.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

I never said that it was more believable.

Fair enough, I was not trying to attack you. You just pointed out that "of course" people would be more critical of Vingegaard, which is what I find odd given the context of Remco and Vingegaard's careers respectively. I don't see why you should be more critical of a 26-year-old at the peak of his physical powers, who's been on the bike for a decade and a half, who blows his opponents out of the water than you should be of a 23-year-old who's been taking cycling seriously for five years and blowing opponents out of the water since, well, day one.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Fair enough, I was not trying to attack you. You just pointed out that "of course" people would be more critical of Vingegaard, which is what I find odd given the context of Remco and Vingegaard's careers respectively. I don't see why you should be more critical of a 26-year-old at the peak of his physical powers, who's been on the bike for a decade and a half, who blows his opponents out of the water than you should be of a 23-year-old who's been taking cycling seriously for five years and blowing opponents out of the water since, well, day one.

There's at least an idea about natural talent having an impact on results, and that will often make you believe, that the guy who was a big talent from day one will have a higher ceiling than a guy who wasn't. Whether it's justified or not is a different matter.

 

[SHAD0W93]

This would make a lot more sense if it was actually true. But it isn't. His legs aren't hanging anywhere when he's on the TT bike.

But anyways, don't take it from me then, take it from Mathias Norsgaard who touched upon it during today's broadcast on Danish TV. Norsgaard is a true TT nerd and he was in awe of Vingegaard's position on the TT bike. If you're genuinely going to claim to know more about it than Norsgaard, then go ahead, that's your right. I know whose opinion I value more.



Ah, yes. It's a lot more believable that a guy who started cycling at 17 is doing this. Got it. That's logical.

By the way, Vingegaard finished 7th on a completely flat time trial four years ago, seven seconds slower than Mikkel Bjerg, beating out specialists like Lasse Norman Leth, with his incredible track pedigree, and Matthias Brändle. There's nothing "sudden" about Vingegaard's time trial improvements.

I don’t know how to post pictures but there’s plenty of them with Vinge having his legs out like a chute in his clinic thread and you can see it on the video. On top of being aerodynamic wasn’t the reason that was given for such a phenomenal TT, the reasons I listened is what was given.

 

[magliaroz]

I'm not a Remco fan, I believe he is full of it just like the rest of them. He probably started early, maybe even before starting cycling (because I do believe doping is present in all sports). But trying to insinuate that Vingegaard is more believable than him? Please stop.
Remco is not only a talented cyclist, he is naturally gifted as an all around athlete. He would probably be highly competitive in every sport he decided to put his time and passion into (and we do have proof of that).
Does he get unfair advantages with questionable methods? Likely, but he is not a flying donkey (or should I say fish?) like some of his colleagues.

 

[Salvarani]

I'm not a Remco fan, I believe he is full of it just like the rest of them. He probably started early, maybe even before starting cycling (because I do believe doping is present in all sports). But trying to insinuate that Vingegaard is more believable than him? Please stop.
Remco is not only a talented cyclist, he is naturally gifted as an all around athlete. He would probably be highly competitive in every sport he decided to put his time and passion into (and we do have proof of that).
Does he get unfair advantages with questionable methods? Likely, but he is not a flying donkey (or should I say fish?) like some of his colleagues.

Sure, but still a doper.