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Cerberus said:
Well the deviation Cavendish made in TdS was much more pronounced and was always going to cause Ciolek to stop riding especially because the presence of Haussler left him nowhere to go. I don't think Dean did anything that caused Renshaw to stop riding or put him in danger or isn't something you don't see in every bunch sprint
Rules are rules, all the riders should know them, there aren't many.
Renshaw out, correct decision.
Renshaw out, correct decision.
It's all bad all around. What makes it worse is that the focus of the Green Jersey battle is being overshadowed.
JD is trying to box Cav in as he moves onto Renshaws shoulder. Most likely it is a pre discussed move to ensure that Cav can only go one way and hoping that someone like Ale might start his sprint early on the left and leave Cav totally boxed in.
Renshaw seems worried that they are going to be forced to open the sprint early and can be seen looking around long long before JD comes up from a fair way back. He really gets the panics up when JD comes to his shoulder and sits there. He is not worried about getting forced into the barriers as much as having the road and options closed down on the left side as he needs to leave space for Cav to come through and he is worried that others from behind are going to fill this space.
Renshaw is usually super cool in these situations but constant attempts to derail the HTC train seem to have really gotten to him and he goes for the over the top head buts instead of just leaning into JD with his shoulder and head to protect his position which would be the normal practice.
When Cav goes he gaps everyone pretty well and Renshaw seems to see there is gap and tries to go to Cav's wheel (to both sweep it and to maybe take some green points). I think Robbie at his best would have tried to make the gap and I think Renshaw would have sensed him a allowed him through. Tyler is rightly not so confident and uses his hand and Renshaw does allow him through even though he has clearly been impeeded. The amount of deviation by Renshaw is extreme and the fact that he seems caught in two minds at one point is the stuff that big crashes are made of.
Having watched Mark race for many years since he was a junior, I would not say that he is dirty sprinter at all, and he seems like a lovely guy, but I think his actions on the stage were not at all good and a strong message needs to be sent.
HTC are going to have to get used to the fact that while teams fear Cav being set up by the train, they are going to do what they can to disrupt this, and one of the good ways to stuff things up is to get Cav boxed in from the sides. A hard **** like JD will do what his team needs him to do. In this stage he was not leading out as much as putting himself in a position that would impede Cav when the sprint proper started. I think that is what Renshaw understood and frankly he freaked out and lost his normal cool and it all looked pretty ugly.
Renshaw seems worried that they are going to be forced to open the sprint early and can be seen looking around long long before JD comes up from a fair way back. He really gets the panics up when JD comes to his shoulder and sits there. He is not worried about getting forced into the barriers as much as having the road and options closed down on the left side as he needs to leave space for Cav to come through and he is worried that others from behind are going to fill this space.
Renshaw is usually super cool in these situations but constant attempts to derail the HTC train seem to have really gotten to him and he goes for the over the top head buts instead of just leaning into JD with his shoulder and head to protect his position which would be the normal practice.
When Cav goes he gaps everyone pretty well and Renshaw seems to see there is gap and tries to go to Cav's wheel (to both sweep it and to maybe take some green points). I think Robbie at his best would have tried to make the gap and I think Renshaw would have sensed him a allowed him through. Tyler is rightly not so confident and uses his hand and Renshaw does allow him through even though he has clearly been impeeded. The amount of deviation by Renshaw is extreme and the fact that he seems caught in two minds at one point is the stuff that big crashes are made of.
Having watched Mark race for many years since he was a junior, I would not say that he is dirty sprinter at all, and he seems like a lovely guy, but I think his actions on the stage were not at all good and a strong message needs to be sent.
HTC are going to have to get used to the fact that while teams fear Cav being set up by the train, they are going to do what they can to disrupt this, and one of the good ways to stuff things up is to get Cav boxed in from the sides. A hard **** like JD will do what his team needs him to do. In this stage he was not leading out as much as putting himself in a position that would impede Cav when the sprint proper started. I think that is what Renshaw understood and frankly he freaked out and lost his normal cool and it all looked pretty ugly.
MarcoB said:
The headbutting and the crossing of the line probably added up. Renshaw went out of his way to headbutt and there is no place for such action in our sport.
Mellow Velo said:
Excellent point. Dave Z may have to do the riding on the front for HTC but HTC now Rogers in the leadout/chase.
JV's a pot-licker!
"I saw the video and I think it's a fair decision,' Vaughters told Cyclingnews.
-What POT-LICKER! No comment on Julian Dean's hooking? Come on Jonathan.
I used to really respect JV...
"I saw the video and I think it's a fair decision,' Vaughters told Cyclingnews.
-What POT-LICKER! No comment on Julian Dean's hooking? Come on Jonathan.
I used to really respect JV...
Who do you trust? Farrar (poor little Tyler... who can't confess when he's beat) or Renshaw?
Renshaw-
Julian came hard in on my position with his elbows. I needed to use my head to retain balance or there would have been a crash. If had used my elbows when Julian brought his elbow on top of mine we would also have crashed. The object was to hold my line and stay upright.
“I hadn’t started the sprint yet. We were still at 375 meters to go. After that Cavendish had to start his sprint early and I was also ready to finish off the sprint as I still had a lot left in my legs. It would have been good to try to take some more points. I only saw open space on my left. I had no idea Tyler Farrar was there. By no means would I ever put any of my fellow riders in danger.”
quoted from velonews...
Renshaw-
Julian came hard in on my position with his elbows. I needed to use my head to retain balance or there would have been a crash. If had used my elbows when Julian brought his elbow on top of mine we would also have crashed. The object was to hold my line and stay upright.
“I hadn’t started the sprint yet. We were still at 375 meters to go. After that Cavendish had to start his sprint early and I was also ready to finish off the sprint as I still had a lot left in my legs. It would have been good to try to take some more points. I only saw open space on my left. I had no idea Tyler Farrar was there. By no means would I ever put any of my fellow riders in danger.”
quoted from velonews...
TahoeNL said:
You didn't actually watch the race then? He looked back. It is obvious he blocked Farrar. But he wasn't kicked out for that.
Renshaw makes an interesting point here, and I think a very valid one: "I can't be out of the Tour de France if Barredo and Costa only got a fine a few days ago."
IMO it was a BS call. Barredo and Costa came to actual blows...some of which involved a wheel used as a weapon.
TahoeNL said:
Marks first statement kind of takes us for idiots. He is clearly not trying to catch his balance. As I have stated earlier, he is trying to create space in a not very subtle way, and he would be better to just being honest about this.
Cavendish had to start his sprint early because they could see he was going to get boxed in if he didnt. That is what Mark was getting so stressed out about, and regardless of what he was trying to do, you cant go from one side of the road to the other in the middle of a bunch sprint.
Concerning the contact between Renshaw and Dean, I can some legitimacy to both riders side of the story. Renshaw correctly points out that Dean did move left towards Renshaw. Dean did extend his elbow, briefly overlapping elbows with Renshaw.
Where I disagree with Renshaw is I don't feel the head butts were a purely defensive move to prevent being forced into the barriers and he ultimately was just as much of an aggressor as Dean was. While Dean did move towards Renshaw, it was very slight and hardly an aggressive move. Renshaw had plenty of room to move left and avoid the contact almost entirely. Instead Renshaw immediately began head butting Dean in what quickly became not so much a defensive move to avoid being pushed into the barriers but an offensive one to knock Dean off his line.
Where Renshaw was clearly at fault was in attempting to run Farrar into the barriers after the head butting incident with Dean. Renshaw clearly looks back before aggressively moving left in front of Farrar, it is pretty clear he was intentionally trying to prevent Farrar from passing him on the left.
In the first incident with Renshaw and Dean, I think a legitimate argument can be made for both riders being at fault. The second incident Renshaw was clearly at fault in what was a potentially dangerous maneuver, this is the incident for which Renshaw should have been thrown out of the race.
Where I disagree with Renshaw is I don't feel the head butts were a purely defensive move to prevent being forced into the barriers and he ultimately was just as much of an aggressor as Dean was. While Dean did move towards Renshaw, it was very slight and hardly an aggressive move. Renshaw had plenty of room to move left and avoid the contact almost entirely. Instead Renshaw immediately began head butting Dean in what quickly became not so much a defensive move to avoid being pushed into the barriers but an offensive one to knock Dean off his line.
Where Renshaw was clearly at fault was in attempting to run Farrar into the barriers after the head butting incident with Dean. Renshaw clearly looks back before aggressively moving left in front of Farrar, it is pretty clear he was intentionally trying to prevent Farrar from passing him on the left.
In the first incident with Renshaw and Dean, I think a legitimate argument can be made for both riders being at fault. The second incident Renshaw was clearly at fault in what was a potentially dangerous maneuver, this is the incident for which Renshaw should have been thrown out of the race.
Thoughtforfood said:
That is what I find amazing, surely the Barredo/Costa incident was worhty of expolsion if this was.
as an aussie, and normally follow aussie riders, renshaw deserved to be booted. that was disgraceful !!!
whats next? HTC lead out and he's got a pocket full of tacks to throw down so no one can contend the sprint
whats next? HTC lead out and he's got a pocket full of tacks to throw down so no one can contend the sprint
For the umpteenth time: Barredo and Costa fought after the stage was already over. Apparently it's not the same situation according to the rules.lookkg386 said:
Parbar said:
I agree completely. Dean clearly deviated from his line, initiated the contact and forced Renshaw left. The headbutts were a reaction to what Dean was doing, and weren't aggressive.
http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-11-highlight/
They should have thrown out both Dean and Renshaw, Dean for cutting infront of Renshaw, and Renshaw for cutting infront of Farrar. That **** is a lot more dangerous than headbutts.
They should have thrown out both Dean and Renshaw, Dean for cutting infront of Renshaw, and Renshaw for cutting infront of Farrar. That **** is a lot more dangerous than headbutts.
lookkg386 said:
How many innocent people get hurt if Barredo or Costa manage to land even one decent blow? Their swinging of handbags was trivial in terms of possible damage, except perhaps to their reputations.
How many innocent people get hurt if Farrar doesn't read Renshaw's swerve and ends up on the deck? Potentially people end up dead.
(Then there's the issue the Barredo and Costa were not actually racing, so race rules don't apply. It's all those "bringing the sport into disrepute" rules that are pure BS. Like cycling as any repute at all. Do they ban racers who have a fight in the hotel as well?)
FactChecker said:
Two skinny spanish guys fighting like a couple of kids at Kinder definitelly brings the sport into disrepute - they aint no "hard men of cycling"
There was a couple of old scrappers in our club who went toe to toe on the side of the road one day, sorted it out and then swapped turns to get back up to the bunch - ah the good old days.
I dont mind guys fighting, but they should have to take their helmet off as handbagging with helmets on just looks wrong.
Thoughtforfood said:
I'm of a different mind. What Barredo and Costa did was imbecillic, but they weren't going to hurt anyone other than each other (front wheel or no front wheel). I'd have just let them finish it out somewhere away from the cameras and be done with it (probably sans wheel).
The middle of a 70 kph sprint is entirely different. The potential existed for serious, even fatal injuries to any number of riders other than Renshaw and Dean.
Completely dirfferent scenarios.
Who Throws a Shoe?
soon as I saw it I thought "well renshaw will get dsqualified"
he went too far, but Dean should also have had some sort of penalty.
in the cut and thrust of sprinting i thought Renshaw's obstruction of Farrar was perfect, his duel with Dean was less so.
thanks
he went too far, but Dean should also have had some sort of penalty.
in the cut and thrust of sprinting i thought Renshaw's obstruction of Farrar was perfect, his duel with Dean was less so.
thanks
Mellow Velo said:
R u kidding? Renshaw doesn't pull in breaks. That was Hansen's job but after they got what they could out of him with his broken collarbone, they just started using the guys who were supposed to be supporting Mick Rogers for GC. Hell, coming into the final k's they were using Mick himself some stages.
I'm not saying Garmin won't have to pace the bunch at all (and they're already doing that), but with Mick down on GC, HTC will just use one of those guys for the leadouts, and continue pulling in breaks as they are now.
However it will be interesting to see what happens with Garmin's leadouts....will HTC try to follow them, or will they just do their own thing...
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