Renshaw out

[Night Rider]

Just watched two different videos a couple of times over and in my opinion Renshaw was totally in the wrong.

I wouldn’t have thrown him off the tour though, Cav got away with more in his tangle with Haussler.

 

[Steel4Ever]

Why are the HTC sprinters so...hooliganish?

Seems to me their sprint coach, Zabel, never had to resort to any of these low tactics.

Weird.

 

[Hillavoider]

Complete over reaction from that hilarious umpire who looks like Jabba the Hut. Dean was moving into Renshaws line and refused to move out after the first headbut so copped another. dissapointing but no surprise as this sport is a farce anyway.

 

[riobonito92]

Watching the overhead video, I am still convinced that Farrar was never in danger of being ridden into the barriers; there was always space for him to come through.

And as I posted on the other thread, weren't some riders given hefty suspensions for "an altercation" after the end of a stage in the 2007 Tour of Virginia? You can't say, "it doesn't matter what you do after the end of the stage, you can't be disqualified." Maybe you can't be disqualified from the stage but you can definitely be thrown out of a race for what you do between one stage finishing and the next starting. Try unloading a stream of obscenities at the chief commissaire and see what happens to you.

 

[ProfTournesol]

Renshaw should have just beaten Julian Dean around the head with his wheel, then he only would have been fined.

 

[Nearly]

“This is a bike race, not a gladiator's arena,” said race director Pescheux. So what's with the cobbles and Spartacus then?!! And why throw Renshaw to the lions!? The ASO has been very aggressive in its defence of the cobbled spectacle yet when a sprinter holds his ground in time honoured manner ....
Ridiculous decision to throw Renshaw out of the race - the man has an impeccable record in the toughest and most dangerous game in town. I can see the banner now at the colosseum - 'Billy' Renshaw v. 'Nanny' Pescheux.

Also Robbie McEwen nearly gets killed by a cameraman and the idiot merely gets a day off.

C'est le Phar Lap encore! As for Dean - bring back the mully grubber (non Antipodeans don't dive for Google translate - it won't help)!

 

[hrotha]

“This is a bike race, not a gladiator's arena,” said race director Pescheux. So what's with the cobbles and Spartacus then?!! And why throw Renshaw to the lions!? The ASO has been very aggressive in its defence of the cobbled spectacle yet when a sprinter holds his ground in time honoured manner ....
Ridiculous decision to throw Renshaw out of the race - the man has an impeccable record in the toughest and most dangerous game in town. I can see the banner now at the colosseum - 'Billy' Renshaw v. 'Nanny' Pescheux.

Also Robbie McEwen nearly gets killed by a cameraman and the idiot merely gets a day off.

C'est le Phar Lap encore! As for Dean - briing back the mully grubber (non Antipodeans don't dive for Google translate - it won't help)!

What do any of those things have to do with each other I wonder.

 

[Galic Ho]

Watching the overhead video, I am still convinced that Farrar was never in danger of being ridden into the barriers; there was always space for him to come through.

And as I posted on the other thread, weren't some riders given hefty suspensions for "an altercation" after the end of a stage in the 2007 Tour of Virginia? You can't say, "it doesn't matter what you do after the end of the stage, you can't be disqualified." Maybe you can't be disqualified from the stage but you can definitely be thrown out of a race for what you do between one stage finishing and the next starting. Try unloading a stream of obscenities at the chief commissaire and see what happens to you.

The rules say you cannot deviate your line. Renshaw checked to see if anyone was coming through over his left shoulder. He saw Farrar and deliberately altered his line. Wake up. Farrar has numerous injuries. There was a very small chance of Tyler getting into that narrow corridor between Renshaw's deviation and the barrier. Very small gap. Odds are he'd have clipped a pedal, hit his broken arm, or at worst fallen and taken down a number of riders. Right decision was made. Renshaw did 4 foolish manouveres and the final one is why he had been removed from the race. Serves him right.

 

[Dewulf]

One Argy deserves a good Bargy, but the Marky+Mark show got caught with their hands in the cookie jar today.

^this

IMO it was a BS call. Barredo and Costa came to actual blows...some of which involved a wheel used as a weapon.

Enough other people have replied to this but let me sum it up - 2 skinny *** dudes, wearing helmets, in cycling shoes, post race, one of them with an 800 gram wheel as a 'weapon'....vs headbutting and shutting the door, a ton of riders travelling at 70kph, all trying to impact who will get line honors, points, etc, potentially setting a precedent for further dodgy & dangerous sprints. Hmm, lol. I mean really, if you think a wheel is a viable weapon, you might want to get down to the Y and take up boxing or karate

Watching the overhead video, I am still convinced that Farrar was never in danger of being ridden into the barriers; there was always space for him to come through.

Nup. I recorded the overhead and have blown it up to fill my 27" inch iMac screen re-watches show renshaw was still closing the door on farrar when farrar reaches out and touches renshaw to say "hey wtf are doing let me thru". If Farrar hadn't put his hand out to stop Renshaw, likely a crash would have resulted, or Farrar would have been 100% blocked.

As it was, Farrar obviously was slowed, and that's also the point. You're supposed to hold your line to lessen the risk of crashes, and to NOT force riders to go around you. Just cos you left some space doesn't mean that forcing them off their line was fair.

 

[riobonito92]

^this

Just cos you left some space doesn't mean that forcing them off their line was fair.

Agreed it was outside the rules. The debate is did it merit expulsion from the race as opposed to a DQ. I am arguing that Renshaw was not trying deliberately to make Farrar crash and, in fact (although I respect your point of view on this) a crash was unlikely.

And since I don't think the head-butting deserved a race expulsion, I think the penalty was an over-reaction.

 

[Steel4Ever]

Dean moved half a BIKE WIDTH before the headbut t.
Renshaw veered half a CAR LANE+ after the head-but t.

Just sayin'...


p.s. -- yes there was room for Farrar to get through.

 

[Nearly]

What do any of those things have to do with each other I wonder.

Irony aside, not a lot save that when the ASO takes umbrage at criticism of inclusion of a tough and dangerous stage such as that to Arenberg because this is professional bike racing (don't get me wrong I loved the stage) but then its race director rubs out Renshaw for butting with at least some justification when it did not appear to be overly dangerous (the move to the left did not appear to be the rationale for the decision) then you have to wonder.

 

[chevron99]

Dean moved half a BIKE WIDTH before the headbut t.
Renshaw veered half a CAR LANE+ after the head-but t.

Just sayin'...


p.s. -- yes there was room for Farrar to get through.

Totally agree with the above. Renshaw ban is completely over the top. This is an obvious reaction to HTC's coming dominance of the Sprint. They don't want to see the same sprinter winning 2-3 more stages so this is a handy way to handicap Cav. Dean knew exactly what he was doing, you can't just go to the front and elbow somebody off their line in the sprint. Why wants he penalised for that?

 

[Dewulf]

Agreed it was outside the rules. The debate is did it merit expulsion from the race as opposed to a DQ. I am arguing that Renshaw was not trying deliberately to make Farrar crash and, in fact (although I respect your point of view on this) a crash was unlikely.

And since I don't think the head-butting deserved a race expulsion, I think the penalty was an over-reaction.

Agreed Renshaw was not trying to make Farrar actually crash (since he would likely be injured as well), but that's not the point. He blatantly blocked his line. Imagine if every leadout man had instructions to block rival sprinters once they'd dropped off their leader. You wouldn't have to cause crashes, just hinder their lines. Crazy, eh. Riders like George H and Greg Rast would be used to just block off entire sections of the road!

So blocking someone's line deserves a penalty - but there are only two penalties HTC (or any sprint team) cares about: (1) a DQ of the win, or (2) a boot for the rider concerned. I don't think DQ'ing the win would be fair....so Renshaw gets booted. I'm an Aussie, but have to say it only seems fair, and given how blatant it all was, pretty much expected.

p.s. -- yes there was room for Farrar to get through.

Only if Farrar assumed Renshaw wasn't going to go further left, which he obviously wouldn't since that's dicing with another crash. Renshaw only stops moving at the same time as Farrar puts his hand out to stop him, so no, there wasn't any safe space..

 

[Hugh Januss]

JD is trying to box Cav in as he moves onto Renshaws shoulder. Most likely it is a pre discussed move to ensure that Cav can only go one way and hoping that someone like Ale might start his sprint early on the left and leave Cav totally boxed in.

Renshaw seems worried that they are going to be forced to open the sprint early and can be seen looking around long long before JD comes up from a fair way back. He really gets the panics up when JD comes to his shoulder and sits there. He is not worried about getting forced into the barriers as much as having the road and options closed down on the left side as he needs to leave space for Cav to come through and he is worried that others from behind are going to fill this space.

Renshaw is usually super cool in these situations but constant attempts to derail the HTC train seem to have really gotten to him and he goes for the over the top head buts instead of just leaning into JD with his shoulder and head to protect his position which would be the normal practice.

When Cav goes he gaps everyone pretty well and Renshaw seems to see there is gap and tries to go to Cav's wheel (to both sweep it and to maybe take some green points). I think Robbie at his best would have tried to make the gap and I think Renshaw would have sensed him a allowed him through. Tyler is rightly not so confident and uses his hand and Renshaw does allow him through even though he has clearly been impeeded. The amount of deviation by Renshaw is extreme and the fact that he seems caught in two minds at one point is the stuff that big crashes are made of.

Having watched Mark race for many years since he was a junior, I would not say that he is dirty sprinter at all, and he seems like a lovely guy, but I think his actions on the stage were not at all good and a strong message needs to be sent.

HTC are going to have to get used to the fact that while teams fear Cav being set up by the train, they are going to do what they can to disrupt this, and one of the good ways to stuff things up is to get Cav boxed in from the sides. A hard **** like JD will do what his team needs him to do. In this stage he was not leading out as much as putting himself in a position that would impede Cav when the sprint proper started. I think that is what Renshaw understood and frankly he freaked out and lost his normal cool and it all looked pretty ugly.

I approve of this post, that is exactly how I saw it. You seem like you have done this sort of thing (bunch sprint) as have I.
Bottom line it was over the top, not the worst thing I have seen in a sprint, but a simple relegation would not have bothered him at all, he sat up right after the hook he threw Farrar anyway. Why would he be bothered at a relegation?

 

[danyela]

Renshaw clearly was in the wrong, but the DQ is just excessive. Relegate him for the stage, slap him with a few thousand euro fine or something else but kicking him out is ridiculous.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Renshaw clearly was in the wrong, but the DQ is just excessive. Relegate him for the stage, slap him with a few thousand euro fine or something else but kicking him out is ridiculous.

I disagree only because a relegation for the leadout man is basically no penalty at all.
Leaving out the headbuts (which took place in the center of the road FFS) if you give the leadout men that much freedom to alter the racing line of another teams sprinter after his sprinter has started his move for the line then all sorts of mayhem is gonna come.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

the "close the door" move was way more scandalous than what you usually see when someone tries to cut the other sprinters off that are trying to come around them.

 

[metaCYCLE]

bottom line: harsh but fair.

 

[dcpdcp]

What about discussing the first Renshaw infringement too.
Rewind the tape a little further and look at the overhead shot. As the HTC rider in front of Renshaw starts to pull up Renshaw looks over his right shoulder, sees Dean coming and swerves quickly right into Dean's line. Once Dean is in front Renshaw starts head butting. Dean doesn't even drift left at all until after the second head ****.

The rest has been discussed at length.

Dangerous riding by Renshaw - he deserves to be ejected, relegation isn't any punishment at all.

 

[ColumbusSL]

I disagree only because a relegation for the leadout man is basically no penalty at all.
Leaving out the headbuts (which took place in the center of the road FFS) if you give the leadout men that much freedom to alter the racing line of another teams sprinter after his sprinter has started his move for the line then all sorts of mayhem is gonna come.

DQ'ing a guy for something that is not as serious as other stuff (eg the 2nd stage sprint) we have seen this tour is only going have more questions asked of the competency or fairness of the commisionaires. All sorts of rubbish has been escaping any sort of penalty yet here the penalty is blatantly over the top for the infringement.
JD was clearly infringing by coming of his line but no penalty at all. Renshaw was merely reacting to a movement that in the past stages has been ungoverned. Like any sport, if the ref is not going to do his job, the players will take matters into their own hands.

 

[TigerFish]

Bravo

JD is trying to box Cav in as he moves onto Renshaws shoulder. Most likely it is a pre discussed move to ensure that Cav can only go one way and hoping that someone like Ale might start his sprint early on the left and leave Cav totally boxed in.

Renshaw seems worried that they are going to be forced to open the sprint early and can be seen looking around long long before JD comes up from a fair way back. He really gets the panics up when JD comes to his shoulder and sits there. He is not worried about getting forced into the barriers as much as having the road and options closed down on the left side as he needs to leave space for Cav to come through and he is worried that others from behind are going to fill this space.

Renshaw is usually super cool in these situations but constant attempts to derail the HTC train seem to have really gotten to him and he goes for the over the top head buts instead of just leaning into JD with his shoulder and head to protect his position which would be the normal practice.

When Cav goes he gaps everyone pretty well and Renshaw seems to see there is gap and tries to go to Cav's wheel (to both sweep it and to maybe take some green points). I think Robbie at his best would have tried to make the gap and I think Renshaw would have sensed him a allowed him through. Tyler is rightly not so confident and uses his hand and Renshaw does allow him through even though he has clearly been impeeded. The amount of deviation by Renshaw is extreme and the fact that he seems caught in two minds at one point is the stuff that big crashes are made of.

Having watched Mark race for many years since he was a junior, I would not say that he is dirty sprinter at all, and he seems like a lovely guy, but I think his actions on the stage were not at all good and a strong message needs to be sent.

HTC are going to have to get used to the fact that while teams fear Cav being set up by the train, they are going to do what they can to disrupt this, and one of the good ways to stuff things up is to get Cav boxed in from the sides. A hard **** like JD will do what his team needs him to do. In this stage he was not leading out as much as putting himself in a position that would impede Cav when the sprint proper started. I think that is what Renshaw understood and frankly he freaked out and lost his normal cool and it all looked pretty ugly.

Great comment, I was getting discouraged by many of the previous posts that did not see the same thing I did. The head butting made me think "what is he doing". The move to the left to block Farrar made it obvious what he was doing.

 

[Steel4Ever]

Dean knew exactly what he was doing, you can't just go to the front and elbow somebody off their line in the sprint.

As mentioned by almost ever fan and professional, elbows do fly in sprints -- that is acceptable.
Dean, as has been stated, moved HALF A BIKE WIDTH.
Which is what...8 inches? And about half of that was space between him and Renshaw. Renshaw on the other hand, after he finished his headthumping, veered HALF A CAR LANE. Big difference.

Renshaw only stops moving at the same time as Farrar puts his hand out to stop him, so no, there wasn't any safe space..

I see it now.

 

[delbified]

renshaw moved too far across and deserved to be punished. however, Cav also did that to Haussler in the Tour de Suisse and lined up the next day. they're on the same team so it can't be called a double standard, but it is inconsistent (ok i know each race is probably judged by different people, but ideally there'd be a uniform rule).

 

[Nearly]

....
Dean, as has been stated, moved HALF A BIKE WIDTH.
Which is what...8 inches? And about half of that was space between him and Renshaw. Renshaw on the other hand, after he finished his headthumping, veered HALF A CAR LANE. Big difference......

Whatever the magnitude and intention of the move that is not why he was ejected!

He is out,” said Pescheux. ”We saw the film over and it was blatant. He head-butted Dean twice like in a keirin race.

“This is cycling, not fighting. Everybody could have ended up on their backs. The rules have to be respected. This is professional cycling," Pescheux said.

The discussion needs to focus on whether the headbutting deserved banning, not, as most seem to be saying, the move towards Farrar or that on top of the headbutting.