Renshaws non selection in Worlds Team?

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Mar 6, 2011
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Ferminal said:
To be fair to the selectors, Rogers showed decent form in Britain, so maybe they knew something we didn't.

Yeah fair enough I was more just making the point that they probablyhad Renshaw instead of one of the other strongmen doms and Rogers was the 1st one to pop in my head. That said I don't think he will make the distance.
 
Mar 27, 2011
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woodie said:
He might not make it to the finish but will Cooke? There's other things he can do during the race to help which he does in any other race. Plus this course hardly has any hills in it, the speed will be so high they won't notice anything except the finish rise.

Cooke is in my view expected to protect them from the wind. He will be good on any gnarly flat bits and is quite good on technical areas. He has a motor.


If Rogers is selected for the RR, why not have him in the ITT??? ( sort of being wistful at the fact that Australia could have one more rider maybe ) Flat ones suit him even though he used to be able to climb as well.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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greenedge said:
Cooke is in my view expected to protect them from the wind. He will be good on any gnarly flat bits and is quite good on technical areas. He has a motor.


If Rogers is selected for the RR, why not have him in the ITT??? ( sort of being wistful at the fact that Australia could have one more rider maybe ) Flat ones suit him even though he used to be able to climb as well.

Easy. His chrono these days is nothing stellar. Youth was the option to get them conditioned. Bodbridge is the former U23 ITT WC and Porte has had some impressive chronos this year. Rogers has neither on his side. He was sick/injured and had no results and age isn't on his side.

Rogers is in the RR team for a reason. He's the psuedo guy you send up front in a break. The guy who has experience. Personally I don't think he's an awesome guy for this but he'll do. IMO he can't finish it off. Think Beijing 2008, but that course was drastically different. Gerrans is the same. Personally I think Rogers is better. Gerrans can make a show but a course that will probably be raced hard...if he's in the lead group with a lap to go he most likely will be dropped. Happened in 2009. Happened at many other one day races.

I can see both the political and practical sides to excluding Renshaw. I think if and it's a big if, that should a large group sprint occur and Renshaw is on the team, then having him there is a bonus and also a major hurdle. Should Cav make that group any work Renshaw would do sadly regardless of his agenda and motivation would only favour the GB team. Ignoring this hypothetical why select him? To carry drinks or potentially lead someone out of a smaller select group that has shed Cav? A waste given the palmares of everyone. Sutton, Goss and Haussler are all better options and all have shown their willingness to win. Renshaw hasn't. He's Cav's lap dog and everyone knows it. If he'd have won a couple of stages the past four seasons at HTC then I'd argue otherwise. He hasn't. He led out for Cav. It's in his racing blood to help that man. Take what you will of that.

Summary goes like this. Great leadout man who would only play a part in the small chance a large group finish occurs of which he isn't guaranteed to last the distance to play his hand. With a reduced probability he makes the end with this scenario I think his strengths will frankly play into Cav's hands. Both know one another and the follower has the advantage. Renshaw leading out Goss or Sutton with Cav on their wheel or two back...I know who wins and it ain't the guys in my nations colours. Better to leave him out because he empowers Cav more than the Aussie team. Ultimately I think it's both practical and draws slightly on the political to exclude Renshaw. In the event you can use him, it's risky and if not then he's a dead weight not proven to perform. Go with the guys who are more versatile...which is what has happened.
 
Jul 10, 2009
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Renshaw's non selection has got everything to do with Cavendish. A number of the teams will want to make the race hard and drop Cav. In which case Renshaw would be dropped as well - and if it came to a bunch sprint Cav would beat Renshaw anyway.

The Aussie team (and others) will be working to break up the race and place one or more of their quicker finishers in a small lead group for the finale.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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Galic Ho said:
Summary goes like this. Great leadout man who would only play a part in the small chance a large group finish occurs of which he isn't guaranteed to last the distance to play his hand. With a reduced probability he makes the end with this scenario I think his strengths will frankly play into Cav's hands. Both know one another and the follower has the advantage. Renshaw leading out Goss or Sutton with Cav on their wheel or two back...I know who wins and it ain't the guys in my nations colours. Better to leave him out because he empowers Cav more than the Aussie team. Ultimately I think it's both practical and draws slightly on the political to exclude Renshaw. In the event you can use him, it's risky and if not then he's a dead weight not proven to perform. Go with the guys who are more versatile...which is what has happened.


On the other hand if it does come down to a bunch sprint we (Australians) still want Goss or Sutton to win so who is now leading them out? Whoever it is he won't be the best leadout man in the business because that guy will be watching it on TV. Cav could flat, fall off his bike, run out of legs, get another toothache, stomach cramps etc. To just wipe the bunch sprint option away because Cav is in the race is totally defeatist. And you certainly won't win a bunch sprint with your second best leadout guys. So I would say which is the lesser of two evils here?

1/. Put Renshaw in to cover the bunch sprint and maybe?? advantage Cav
or
2/. Leave Renshaw out and disadvantage your own sprinters if it comes down to a bunch sprint.

While Cav would know Renshaw's capabilities better than anyone your assumption that Cav would be 4th wheel behind Renshaw is a very low probability scenario. Cav will be led out by the Brits. That's their job. Cav would only jump ship onto the Aussie leadout train if his own lead out train fell apart. And even then a million things could go wrong, the most likely outcome is that he would be blocked by other riders and end up further back or end up eating too much wind. It's certainly not a scenario the Brits would be planning for. Their Plan A will be to drop him off at 150m to go.... And that's why we need Renshaw.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Ferminal said:
To be fair to the selectors, Rogers showed decent form in Britain, so maybe they knew something we didn't.
Come on Ferminal, do you really call that form? I don't see how he'll do anything to make a difference on Saturday.
mb2612 said:
Haussler: 2nd places in monuments

Renshaw: Literally no result in a proper classic ever.

I would rather have Haussler in my team

Renshaw has placed at Hamburg before.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Come on Ferminal, do you really call that form? I don't see how he'll do anything to make a difference on Saturday..

Well yeh, for someone coming off after a long lay off with illness it is quite a reasonable showing. It shows that his form is on the up, and another week of training and he will be at a good enough level for the RR. He will do a job, and probably last longer than any alternative selections.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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And after watching the U23's, the bunch sprint with a lead out is no longer just a remote chance.... it's almost a certainty.

Huge mistake leaving out Renshaw.
 
Mar 27, 2011
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Renshaw is now affirmed as he should have been in here after the junior womens and men's under 23 where it ended IN A BUNCH FINISH where Renshaw would be INVALUABLE.
 
Aug 26, 2011
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auscyclefan94 said:
Come on Ferminal, do you really call that form? I don't see how he'll do anything to make a difference on Saturday.


Renshaw has placed at Hamburg before.

In 2008 he came 2nd in a 218km semi-classic, doesn't prove much for a 250+ course.

Also the second last man has to do the job on the steepest section where Renshaw is notoriously bad.

Meh, we will see how the Aussies do on Sunday, and unless they win it wont help this argument either way so I'm done with it.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Polyarmour said:
On the other hand if it does come down to a bunch sprint we (Australians) still want Goss or Sutton to win so who is now leading them out? Whoever it is he won't be the best leadout man in the business because that guy will be watching it on TV. Cav could flat, fall off his bike, run out of legs, get another toothache, stomach cramps etc. To just wipe the bunch sprint option away because Cav is in the race is totally defeatist. And you certainly won't win a bunch sprint with your second best leadout guys. So I would say which is the lesser of two evils here?

IMO taking him is the lesser of two evils. But then again I'm not a rider in the pro peloton and I don't know how these boys mesh as a group, which would play a part surely. Sure I grew up 60km away from Renshaw's home town and I know the mentality of the average Bathurst bloke, heck I'd have gone to school with him had I lived in Bathurst, but I really don't know what he's like and his rep with the selectors or the blokes chosen. All I do know is that the two Marks draw off one another and they empower one another. I was hypothesising a feasible but not necessarily true explanation for why he wasn't picked. I'll fill you in after I quote the rest of your post.

1/. Put Renshaw in to cover the bunch sprint and maybe?? advantage Cav
or
2/. Leave Renshaw out and disadvantage your own sprinters if it comes down to a bunch sprint.

While Cav would know Renshaw's capabilities better than anyone your assumption that Cav would be 4th wheel behind Renshaw is a very low probability scenario. Cav will be led out by the Brits. That's their job. Cav would only jump ship onto the Aussie leadout train if his own lead out train fell apart. And even then a million things could go wrong, the most likely outcome is that he would be blocked by other riders and end up further back or end up eating too much wind. It's certainly not a scenario the Brits would be planning for. Their Plan A will be to drop him off at 150m to go.... And that's why we need Renshaw.


Filling in...the Brits have six riders right? Australia, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium all have nine and will make the race super hard. That's my problem with picking Renshaw practically. Neither he nor Cav are a sure thing to make the finish with a lead group.

Sure team Sky had some nice sprints in le Tour, but that was EBH. Their only finisher is Cav on the national team. It's him or nothing. They simply don't have the numbers. What is scarier is that in the event Cav is dropped, EBH and Hushovd will most likely make the finish. They were devastating at the Tour. Carry an iota of that form and all they have to do is follow. Sadly for our Aussie team, in that event I can't see any of our boys with the form they have standing a chance. That also doesn't answer the Gilbert enigma...which I cannot answer. I was saying last year our best chance of winning in 2011 in Copenhagen was Haussler. Why? The likely scenario of a select group breaking away. Put him in it, he could win a sprint, same with Goss if there are bigger numbers (if you exclude Cav and Greipel and assume Gilbert misses out). A pure power sprinter won't make such a group which rules out Cav and thus Renshaw being needed to leadout. Even the race folding out like last years final is fine for our current team. Then you have a guy like Thor winning, which a few of our guys could match if in form. Or Gilbert, or EBH, Freire. But not Cav. He won't make the run on that selection. A big finish, yes, we are in big trouble because Goss is the only guy with pure speed to win against these names and he will come third at best behing Cav and Greipel with Renshaw leading out. It's all hit and miss really. Playing the probabilites and hoping for the best. As I said, the selectors probably didn't think he'd make the distance to play out a small scenario...hence redundant regardless of possibility of empowering Cav.

But as I said...team size and the talk of the big 9 member teams is the race will be hard. Odds are Belgium want Gilbert isolated in a select group. Then you don't get a leadout, you have to position yourself and rely on pure skill and reading opponents. With that in mind Renshaw is pointless. Goss can do it on his own. MSR kinda proves that and his attempts at other races are good enough to bank on him. Personally I was hoping Haussler would have form...who knows maybe he'll have a blinda, but I'm thinking he won't. Problem is since I foresaw Haussler as having a chance last year he's been sick, injured or just plain lacking in form. Same with Goss, but Goss did perform well in the Tour in the stage Cav wasn't on. He didn't have the train work out for him that day (think it was EBH's first win) and came a nice third.

Realistically the Australian team are relying on a lot of luck for their selections to make sense, but with that in mind I think they played the probabilites well. The pure power sprinters shouldn't make the end and it may end up like last years finish in Geelong or a select few. In that case, I'm comfortable with Goss or CJ to do well enough without a leadout to get a position on the podium. I do however think it will take something short a miracle for Cav to make the final selection. I really do hope Gilbert wins this year. He deserves it and I'm hoping the Belgian team bury themselves to help him at the end and he doesn't have to do a futile move like he did on the last lap in Geelong last year on the hill just to hope for a win. But then again, everyone doubted there would be such a big group in Geelong for the sprint...we can only hope the selectors choices prove wise.

Don't get me started on the weather...
 
Aug 12, 2009
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greenedge said:
Renshaw is now affirmed as he should have been in here after the junior womens and men's under 23 where it ended IN A BUNCH FINISH where Renshaw would be INVALUABLE.

Wasn't the junior womens race 70km and the mens U23 160km? Mens RR is 266km right? Big difference and the pace the men will race at will undoubtedly be faster. Until it folds out that is like comparing apples and oranges. Also, we are ignoring the weather.

But I do agree. Cooke shouldn't have been chosen or someone else...maybe Rogers. Renshaw is more valuable than both.
 
May 27, 2010
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Galic Ho said:
IMO taking him is the lesser of two evils. But then again I'm not a rider in the pro peloton and I don't know how these boys mesh as a group, which would play a part surely. Sure I grew up 60km away from Renshaw's home town and I know the mentality of the average Bathurst bloke, heck I'd have gone to school with him had I lived in Bathurst, but I really don't know what he's like and his rep with the selectors or the blokes chosen. All I do know is that the two Marks draw off one another and they empower one another. I was hypothesising a feasible but not necessarily true explanation for why he wasn't picked. I'll fill you in after I quote the rest of your post.




Filling in...the Brits have six riders right? Australia, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium all have nine and will make the race super hard. That's my problem with picking Renshaw practically. Neither he nor Cav are a sure thing to make the finish with a lead group.

Sure team Sky had some nice sprints in le Tour, but that was EBH. Their only finisher is Cav on the national team. It's him or nothing. They simply don't have the numbers. What is scarier is that in the event Cav is dropped, EBH and Hushovd will most likely make the finish. They were devastating at the Tour. Carry an iota of that form and all they have to do is follow. Sadly for our Aussie team, in that event I can't see any of our boys with the form they have standing a chance. That also doesn't answer the Gilbert enigma...which I cannot answer. I was saying last year our best chance of winning in 2011 in Copenhagen was Haussler. Why? The likely scenario of a select group breaking away. Put him in it, he could win a sprint, same with Goss if there are bigger numbers (if you exclude Cav and Greipel and assume Gilbert misses out). A pure power sprinter won't make such a group which rules out Cav and thus Renshaw being needed to leadout. Even the race folding out like last years final is fine for our current team. Then you have a guy like Thor winning, which a few of our guys could match if in form. Or Gilbert, or EBH, Freire. But not Cav. He won't make the run on that selection. A big finish, yes, we are in big trouble because Goss is the only guy with pure speed to win against these names and he will come third at best behing Cav and Greipel with Renshaw leading out. It's all hit and miss really. Playing the probabilites and hoping for the best. As I said, the selectors probably didn't think he'd make the distance to play out a small scenario...hence redundant regardless of possibility of empowering Cav.

But as I said...team size and the talk of the big 9 member teams is the race will be hard. Odds are Belgium want Gilbert isolated in a select group. Then you don't get a leadout, you have to position yourself and rely on pure skill and reading opponents. With that in mind Renshaw is pointless. Goss can do it on his own. MSR kinda proves that and his attempts at other races are good enough to bank on him. Personally I was hoping Haussler would have form...who knows maybe he'll have a blinda, but I'm thinking he won't. Problem is since I foresaw Haussler as having a chance last year he's been sick, injured or just plain lacking in form. Same with Goss, but Goss did perform well in the Tour in the stage Cav wasn't on. He didn't have the train work out for him that day (think it was EBH's first win) and came a nice third.

Realistically the Australian team are relying on a lot of luck for their selections to make sense, but with that in mind I think they played the probabilites well. The pure power sprinters shouldn't make the end and it may end up like last years finish in Geelong or a select few. In that case, I'm comfortable with Goss or CJ to do well enough without a leadout to get a position on the podium. I do however think it will take something short a miracle for Cav to make the final selection. I really do hope Gilbert wins this year. He deserves it and I'm hoping the Belgian team bury themselves to help him at the end and he doesn't have to do a futile move like he did on the last lap in Geelong last year on the hill just to hope for a win. But then again, everyone doubted there would be such a big group in Geelong for the sprint...we can only hope the selectors choices prove wise.

Don't get me started on the weather...

Great Britain have 8 riders and according to Wiggans they are all riding for Cav and a bunch sprint

In this video

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/518699/Mark-Cavendish

Cav says the only thing GB are missing in terms of strength is Mark Renshaw.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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woodie said:
Great Britain have 8 riders and according to Wiggans they are all riding for Cav and a bunch sprint

In this video

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/518699/Mark-Cavendish

Cav says the only thing GB are missing in terms of strength is Mark Renshaw.

Last time I checked and I admit it was months back they had 6 riders. Try about 6 months back. Guess they moved up the rankings which ain't a surprise given their pickings the last few months as a nation. Good for them, but bad if they can't pull off a win on this trollup of a course.
 
May 27, 2010
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Galic Ho said:
Last time I checked and I admit it was months back they had 6 riders. Try about 6 months back. Guess they moved up the rankings which ain't a surprise given their pickings the last few months as a nation. Good for them, but bad if they can't pull off a win on this trollup of a course.

Yeah they ranked high enough for the full nine but only eight of their riders actually scored points so they qualified eight, the last two spots only opened up in the last half of the season.

It is looking more and more like it will be a bunch kick, it shall be interesting
 
Mar 6, 2011
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Galic Ho said:
Last time I checked and I admit it was months back they had 6 riders. Try about 6 months back. Guess they moved up the rankings which ain't a surprise given their pickings the last few months as a nation. Good for them, but bad if they can't pull off a win on this trollup of a course.

TBF they are pretty limited in what they can work for there is a selection of possible winners they can choose from like Australia for example (with the exception of a breakaway) so either Cav can make it too the end or not which in a strange way maybe a good thing for galvanising the riders and there certainly isn't any uncertainty to who the leader is. I think they've been eligble for 8 riders since the tour of Poland and the readon why they don't have 9 riders is because only 8 have scored points.
 
Jul 7, 2010
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Galic Ho said:
Wasn't the junior womens race 70km and the mens U23 160km? Mens RR is 266km right? Big difference and the pace the men will race at will undoubtedly be faster. Until it folds out that is like comparing apples and oranges. Also, we are ignoring the weather.

But I do agree. Cooke shouldn't have been chosen or someone else...maybe Rogers. Renshaw is more valuable than both.

I think Sutton, and Clarke are better candidates to be dropped for Renshaw than Rogers or Cooke. Rogers and Cooke will get on the front and with hard all day if need be. They're both strong men, and their form should be good enough for that role. Clarke I don't think is needed with Gerrans there, and if he is in as a worker Hansen is a better option. Sutton everyone seems to think was a good selection because he won a stage of the Vuelta...most of the big sprinters were either not sprinting or not riding the Vuelta, and he also was dropped on stages Bennati won. Sutton is also more of a straight switch. If Sutton is there at the end, so too will be Goss. In breakaways Australia is more than covered with O'Grady, Gerrans and Haussler (and Clarke if Sutton was stopped for Renshaw).

Watching the start of this race, it's ridiculous Renshaw isn't there.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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The Brits have no Plan B because they know it's ending in a bunch sprint. Meanwhile the Aussies are "covering all scenarios" which is code for they don't really know what they're doing. They have the most valuable leadout rider on the planet but he'll be watching the race on his TV.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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/flameshield

Haussler did very well, but maybe Renshaw gives Goss the half wheel he needed. Would have made the finish as it was not selective at all.