Shack Stalemate Sabotages Licence Hopes?

[Publicus]

personally.. no...

we lose astana and gain shack... case of better the devil you know than the devil you dont... although we know them both which makes it doubly bad... Astana made their mistakes, and to be fair where doping, when everyone else was as well.. lets not think that astana and vino where the only ones at it.. they wherent.. but, considering all that has gone before they have to whiter than white now....

the ideal solution i guess would be no astana, or shack, but given the choice.. give me astana any day...

and for garmin, no... i actually maybe misguidedly have faith in garmins cleanliness.. i dont have that same faith in contador.. shatters a few illusions for me im afraid...

but given the choice between a new, hopefully clean, and financially stable astana bringing fresh young faces in (and hopefully not loads of ex dopers) v shack and just the same old guard dominating the politics of cycling, i pick astana....

i used to be a fan of lance, i still love his racing, but it just seems wherever him and JB go there is political wrangling and too much damn attention.... it wont change when they are gone, but at least it will be one bad apple gone from the basket and we can try and get back to talking cycling instead of F****** politics...

I think this is noble enough thought, but I don't think it reflects the situation at hand. Astana was essentially giving away the farm, with no manager and no signings. Today was the first day that anyone has any objective proof that they are serious about continuing in the sport. I don't know if it is vanity for Vino or to develop new talent . . . but to be honest I've never known them to do the latter, but the former is their raison d'etre.

I think cycling could do without what the Shack represents (rank opportunism and nothing more), but Astana hasn't demonstrated that it is anything more than the same side of the same coin.

 

[Ferminal]

personally.. no...

we lose astana and gain shack... case of better the devil you know than the devil you dont... although we know them both which makes it doubly bad... Astana made their mistakes, and to be fair where doping, when everyone else was as well.. lets not think that astana and vino where the only ones at it.. they wherent.. but, considering all that has gone before they have to whiter than white now....

the ideal solution i guess would be no astana, or shack, but given the choice.. give me astana any day...

and for garmin, no... i actually maybe misguidedly have faith in garmins cleanliness.. i dont have that same faith in contador.. shatters a few illusions for me im afraid...

but given the choice between a new, hopefully clean, and financially stable astana bringing fresh young faces in (and hopefully not loads of ex dopers) v shack and just the same old guard dominating the politics of cycling, i pick astana....

i used to be a fan of lance, i still love his racing, but it just seems wherever him and JB go there is political wrangling and too much damn attention.... it wont change when they are gone, but at least it will be one bad apple gone from the basket and we can try and get back to talking cycling instead of F****** politics...

Oh I completely agree, but if we are JV.

Garmin get their man, Sky get their man, a naughty team gets axed (thereby making us look way better) and the big money men JB/LA get a gig.

 

[ggusta]

This is how it's going to play out:

1. The Astana licence is revoked.
2. Astana applies for a new licence
3. The Shack signs Klöden, Zubeldia and Popo (+Bruyneel) since they have already negotiated the signings.
3. Before Caisse d'Epargne gets Contador's name in the papers Astana is granted a new ProTour licence and Contador is again bound to the team by his contract.

At least that would make a great movie

My idea beats yours like a drum, AC out at Astana and JB and co (except Lance) stay at astana. Lance vs Ac vs JB and co.

 

[Publicus]

My idea beats yours like a drum, AC out at Astana and JB and co (except Lance) stay at astana. Lance vs Ac vs JB and co.

I gotta think Lance goes home and refuses to compete without JB.

 

[richwagmn]

Shack could get a Continental licence and still be invited to the TdF and other major races. Plus compete in N and S American events (including MTB).

This. LA will be at the tour next year with or without a PT license. ASO knows how much more money LA attracts. Besides, everyone wants to see LA vs AC next year.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Oh I completely agree, but if we are JV.

Garmin get their man, Sky get their man, a naughty team gets axed (thereby making us look way better) and the big money men JB/LA get a gig.

That sure looks like the way the UCI should want it to go down. Lets wait and see exactly how much control they do have.

 

[richwagmn]

I gotta think Lance goes home and refuses to compete without JB.

Hmmm, hadn't thought about that. Interesting point though.

 

[BroDeal]

This. LA will be at the tour next year with or without a PT license. ASO knows how much more money LA attracts. Besides, everyone wants to see LA vs AC next year.

Nope. Only the fanboys want to see LA vs AC. The rest of us saw that LA was nowhere near competitive--even on a crap course that looked like it was practically designed for him. Let riders Evans, Menchov, and Sastre ride at their usual level and LA won't be a factor. Then there is Gesink, Sanchez, etc....

 

[Hugh Januss]

Nope. Only the fanboys want to see LA vs AC. The rest of us saw that LA was nowhere near competitive--even on a crap course that looked like it was practically designed for him. Let riders Evans, Menchov, and Sastre ride at their usual level and LA won't be a factor. Then there is Gesink, Sanchez, etc....

Yes, but when tour time rolls around there are a ton of fanboys and the UCI wants their attention and money.

 

[Ripper]

Me Vino, me say

Me Vino, me say JB stay, AC stay, UCI give license.

Me Vino, me have spoken.

Don't ya love the Kazaks!

 

[luckyboy]

we lose astana and gain shack... case of better the devil you know than the devil you dont... although we know them both which makes it doubly bad... Astana made their mistakes, and to be fair where doping, when everyone else was as well.. lets not think that astana and vino where the only ones at it.. they wherent.. but, considering all that has gone before they have to whiter than white now....

the ideal solution i guess would be no astana, or shack, but given the choice.. give me astana any day...

That management structure went before Bruyneel came in. There has been nothing to connect them with doping since that. Yes, Vino is back and he has doped in the past, but then again Basso came back and Liquigas weren't kicked out of the ProTour (I know the situation with the team rosters is different but..)

Again, the management will be different at Astana - there isn't really going to be a lot left that links this Astana to the Astana of the past, is there? Also, I am sure that somebody said today (can't remember who/which thred) that this new 'syringes in the bin'-gate will have some effect on Astana's PT license application for next year. Well seeing as the management/staff and most of the riders will be moving to The Shack, then it should have an effect on them rather than a load of guys who weren't even there

I don't see how Astana can be refused a PT license in favour of RS - if it is a question of the number of riders, surely the 4/3? in question will be at whichever team gets the license? (If Astana get the riders, then Shack won't have enough riders for a license, but they will and vice-verse - it seems that getting a license is dependent on getting the riders, and vice-versa).

Anyway, this is all very complicated and will no doubt be resolved (in The Shack's favour) by some inspired thinking on the part of Pat & co. I really would like someone to explain why exactly Astana won't get this (other than UCI corruption/mates with LA,JB)

Apologies if I have missed something really obvious, but I should really be asleep now..

 

[python]

A good general primer on the uci pt license process and history. helps to connect the various astana and shack related bits together.
http://www.velonews.com/article/98293/who-gets-protour-licenses-and-why

the way i see it the uci's main demands to astana are resolvable:
long term financial guarantees - check
no vinokourov in mngmt structure -check
solid general manager -martinelli proposed or jb still oficially - check
solid roster of riders - officially still with ac, vino, kloeden, zubeldia (new signings) - almost check
no image spoilers (returning dopers)- still big unknown

 

[luckyboy]

no vinokourov in mngmt structure -check

Columbia have Holm, Aldag
Fuji have Zanini (2001 Giro - 2month ban) I thought Gianetti was still there, but he's not on the website..
Liquigas have Mario Scirea (accused in Oil for Drugs)
Saxo Bank have Riis
QST have Lefevere

(I cannot think of any others right now, and can't be bothered to look..)

But Astana cannot have Vino?


Not that I want him to be a DS, of course. It seems very much like double standards though..

 

[richwagmn]

Yes, but when tour time rolls around there are a ton of fanboys and the UCI wants their attention and money.

Yes. LA means money. Money trumps all. ASO wants LA there.

 

[Anonymous]

where did you get that piece of information? i'd love to know what else is or is not in his contract.

Publicus, here is the link:

http://velonews.com/article/98838/nothing-decided-yet-for-contador

Basically, AC has no get out clause in his contract, but he could argue that he signed with astana under the fair and reasonable assumption they would remain in the PT. As such, McQuaid said he may be able nullify the contract if Astana gets the boot

 

[Mellow Velo]

The Shack application, was made by a company.
That company has three shareholders: Armstrong, Bruyneel and Bill Stapleton.

Knowing what we now know, how was this allowed?
A huge conflict of interests through huge assumptions being taken for granted.
How could a guy apply for a licence for a new team, while contracted to work for another?
Would be considered illegal in most circumstances.

Quite clearly, LA/JB had a deadline to meet, in submitting the paperwork. They met it, but in doing so, made it fraudulently.
This stinks of the collaboration of the usual third party. He makes up new rules and breaks old ones, as he does whatever suits his interests.

 

[progressor]

from twitter sept 18th

@johanbruyneel Dear Johan, your statement is understandable. But is it true that you have got a contract with Astana till the end of 2010?

@KazakhNeRider -yes but the contract says no Vino...

 

[Angliru]

I think it is bogus that a team like Skil can slave away in the salt mines of the lower tier of the sport and be forced to give up its move to the top tier while completely new teams like Sky and Retirement Shack are ushered in across a red carpet. A new team should have to prove itself by racing at least a year as a Pro Continental. If there were a proper system of advancement and relegation that depended on results then this would not happen. Instead we are left to wonder what favors have been exchanged between teams and the UCI. It smacks of corruption.

I hope Astana sues if they are denied a ProTour license. Let the UCI explain in court why some teams were given the nod while others were denied.

++1. Does seem vastly unfair and risky for the sports reputation in general, not that its has a great one as it is.

 

[Anonymous]

This. LA will be at the tour next year with or without a PT license. ASO knows how much more money LA attracts. Besides, everyone wants to see LA vs AC next year.

i dont.. id rather see andy schleck and brad wiggins fight it out personally... and boonen to be on form again and give cav a real run for his money..

 

[Angliru]

I gotta think Lance goes home and refuses to compete without JB.

That's fine by me.

 

[Willow22]

really sorry if this has been explained before, but can someone please explain to me how Vino is allowed to ride on a ProTour team. I though the rules were if you got done for doping, you had to sit out two years + no pro tour team for two years. Isn't this why leakygas gave up status so could take on Basso (or did i just make that up?) To me it seems like no vino, no kazakh money. no money = no team. Plus, if their licence is up for review anyway, how does UCI let them go on as a PT team with him on the roster? i am just confused


Why don't we just settle it by having the UCI say that you can't have a team with vino in it, then everything will fall apart nicely so shack can have their team, then AC joins someone else, then both of them get smashed next year by Andy Schleck who attacks from 100km out on Prudhomme's mythical fantasy route that allows for exciting racing, and then everybody's happy

 

[KazakhNeRider]

so, what is a difference for you between Liquigas\Basso and Astana\Vino? Both are after two-years ban, both came to pro-tour teams, the rule about "two years no sign after two years ban" is not official, btw Bruyneel was the first who departs from the rule with the same Basso in 2007

 

[HL2037]

Oooh! Vino is back and has found a way to entertain us even in the off-season!

Please please please may he have a licence, it's drama guarantee!

 

[RdBiker]

That's fine by me.

Sorry to ruin your party but apparently Bruyneel is free to go. Now we just need info on Klöden, Zubeldia (and Rast). Astana would be fools to let them go so I'm not holding my breath.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bruyneel-cleared-for-departure-from-astana
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2009/20091014_184755_sanquer-nouveau-manager.html

 

[krebs303]

http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site...a.asp?id=18377

Astana opposes output Zubeldia and Kloden

According to L'Equipe revealed, Johan Bruyneel talks between the Federation and Kazakhstan, which manages the Astana have been broken after the authorities prevent the departure of Haimar Zubeldia, Andreas Klöden and Gregory Rast.

The three runners have existing contract with Astana, but Bruyneel is the intention of buying his letter of freedom and recruit to his new team Radio Shack.

However, it has authorized the departure of Yaroslav Popovych who also had a contract with Astana in 2010.

In any case, Bruyneel says she does not throw in the towel because the Kazakh authorities always take decisions at the last minute.