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Shack Stalemate Sabotages Licence Hopes?

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Aug 6, 2009
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Mountain Goat said:
A very cheeky loophole, i thought it was a brilliant idea. But then again, it's very hard to design a contract without some kind of loophole. I agree it is dodgy, but there couldnt possible be anything in his contract that says he can't retire... And once retired, there cant possibly be a law saying he can't come out of retirement. Maybe there is...

Again, I just want AC out of a team that may get barred from the tour again

You're missing one thing. There is almost certainly nothing to stop him from retiring, and he can also come back after that. The problem is whether he can come back for a different team. There doesn't have to be an implicit prohibition against this stunt either. Courts in many countries have this understandable tendency to rule against obvious abuses, so unless something like that is fairly explicitly allowed I don't think it would fly.
 
May 26, 2009
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Mountain Goat said:
A very cheeky loophole, i thought it was a brilliant idea. But then again, it's very hard to design a contract without some kind of loophole. I agree it is dodgy, but there couldnt possible be anything in his contract that says he can't retire... And once retired, there cant possibly be a law saying he can't come out of retirement. Maybe there is...

Again, I just want AC out of a team that may get barred from the tour again

I don't know anything about the contract's but I'd think that if he retires and then comes back from retirement he has to ride for the team he has a contract with.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
The wrench in the motor is that Vino is supposed to not be able to ride for 4 years on a PT team after his positive test, per UCI rules. Unfortunately the UCI only enforces this rule on some riders, such as Roberto Heras, while looking the other way for others. All while giving no logical explanation as to why their rules are written in pencil.

was a very big fan of Heras and hated the way he was never allowed back when other riders are. Guess no one will know why that is.

Also does the fact he took EPO and knew he would be tested at the end of the race as the leader mean the EPO test still isn't 100% accurate
 
Jul 26, 2009
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just 2 cents about the retirement issue , berto can most certainly retire , he would not be able to compete for another team for the entire duration of his astana contract.........so no he cant just leave and ride for another team 'after the dust settles'..........in effect he would have to sit out a year after which he would be free to negotiate and sign a new contract.......;)
 
May 26, 2009
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thehog said:
Thanks for the insight. Its obvious that contract law is your speciality.

We could form a law firm then since you seem to be an expert in literature :)

I said I don't know anything about THE contract's but I'd say that if he retires he still has a contract with Astana. So that would mean that he can't sign a contract with any other team, i.e. ride for another team if he decides to come out of retirement. UNLESS the contract states that it ceases to exist if Contador retires.

Otherwise there would be no point in creating a contract would there since a rider could get out of his contract simply by retiring and then "returning" to the sport the next day.
 
May 26, 2009
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lagartija said:
just 2 cents about the retirement issue , berto can most certainly retire , he would not be able to compete for another team for the entire duration of his astana contract.........so no he cant just leave and ride for another team 'after the dust settles'..........in effect he would have to sit out a year after which he would be free to negotiate and sign a new contract.......;)

My thoughts exactly. And sitting out a year would be far far worse for a rider like him than riding for any team in the peloton. He would jeopardize his entire career by not competing for a whole year.
 
lagartija said:
just 2 cents about the retirement issue , berto can most certainly retire , he would not be able to compete for another team for the entire duration of his astana contract.........so no he cant just leave and ride for another team 'after the dust settles'..........in effect he would have to sit out a year after which he would be free to negotiate and sign a new contract.......;)

It is not that easy. The damages suffered by the other party have to be taken into account. Astana contracted a top GT rider with the expectation that the team would have a good probability of winning a GT. Without that probability, the team is worth significantly less in terms of advertising or promotion than what it was. In addition to Contador, they hired some riders specifically to support Contador. With a late retirement there would be no way for them to replace what they have lost. If a retirement came a couple of months earlier then Astana might have been able to buy a rider like Evans or offer Leecheimer money to stay. They might have ditched the GT idea entirely and hired more riders for the classics. A sudden retirement in October would leave the team mispositioned for the next racing season. Without a really good reason for retirement, Contador could be liable for damages.

In other terms, you hire someone to provide a service. The person does not provide that service. Just because he does not ask to be paid (or says he did not provide the service because he "retired"), you still may have suffered damages because of expectations that the service would be provided.
 
Jul 26, 2009
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BroDeal said:
It is not that easy. The damages suffered by the other party have to be taken into account. Astana contracted a top GT rider with the expectation that the team would have a good probability of winning a GT. Without that probability, the team is worth significantly less in terms of advertising or promotion than what it was. In addition to Contador, they hired some riders specifically to support Contador. With a late retirement there would be no way for them to replace what they have lost. If a retirement came a couple of months earlier then Astana might have been able to buy a rider like Evans or offer Leecheimer money to stay. They might have ditched the GT idea entirely and hired more riders for the classics. A sudden retirement in October would leave the team mispositioned for the next racing season. Without a really good reason for retirement, Contador could be liable for damages.

In other terms, you hire someone to provide a service. The person does not provide that service. Just because he does not ask to be paid (or says he did not provide the service because he "retired"), you still may have suffered damages because of expectations that the service would be provided.

oh i agree with you a legal battle would ensue and damages sought after , no question.....but after that initial sit out he would be able to ride professionally again , im not commenting on what astana might take or not to cas or civil court
 
eleven said:
I'm not sure where you got this information, but it is incorrect.
I asked around, as I didn't know and this is the answer I received from a "knowledgeable" source.
No one has questioned it, since then.
So, if it is incorrect, what is the correct answer and could we have an evidentiary link, please.
It would be nice to have the definitve answer.;)
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Race Radio said:
The Hog is one of the team Radio Shack owners. Also Armstrong was an owner of Ulysses, the Hog's management company that ran Astana.

Team Radio Shack is owned by Capital Sports and Entertainment. Is it your contention that Bruyneel, Armstrong and Stapleton (Bill-not-Bob;) )each have an ownership stake in that company and between the three have complete ownership?
 
So, you can't actually tell us who made the Shack application, can you?

All PT licences are issued under a company name, but are normally held, (Astana being the exception) by the team manager.

Companies are all listed here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_ProTour

As to Capital Sports and Entertainment?
Bill Stapleton and Bart Knaggs. That's it.
Brand new company. Nice pickie of Lance.
http://www.planetcse.com/who.asp

What do they do? Promote Lance, Mellow Johnny's and Livestrong and not much else.

So, why wouldn't Bruyneel be a shareholder?
In submitting an application, his name would be paramount, IMO.

Looks to me as if there was nothing wrong with my source and that you have made an assumption, that is incorrect.
 
Jun 3, 2009
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Planet CSE is not a brand new company they managed the Discovery team,manage the Trek Livestrong team the Austin City limits festival and so on
 
Raupi7 said:
Planet CSE is not a brand new company they managed the Discovery team,manage the Trek Livestrong team the Austin City limits festival and so on

No, they have been around since the early 2000's.
Music in Austin, being the "odd man out".

Everything else is Lance orientated. Discovery, Trek Livestrong, MJ's......
So, conclusion?
Why wouldn't the PT application have been made/held, by the three men at the helm?

Nobody is putting forward an alternative for name/s on the PT parchment.
 
Mellow Velo said:
No, they have been around since the early 2000's.
Music in Austin, being the "odd man out".

Everything else is Lance orientated. Discovery, Trek Livestrong, MJ's......
So, conclusion?
Why wouldn't the PT application have been made/held, by the three men at the helm?

Nobody is putting forward an alternative for name/s on the PT parchment.

I am sorry. I do not understand what the point of this argument is? What is the big deal if JB (or LA, or anyone else) is a stock holder in the applicant company or not?
 
ggusta said:
I am sorry. I do not understand what the point of this argument is? What is the big deal if JB (or LA, or anyone else) is a stock holder in the applicant company or not?

Neither do I.
Just that the info I posted a while back, was called incorrect without verification, when, in fact, the opposite is probably true.
IMO; Bruyneel's name would have to be on the application.
All PT licences are under holding company names.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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eleven said:
Team Radio Shack is owned by Capital Sports and Entertainment. Is it your contention that Bruyneel, Armstrong and Stapleton (Bill-not-Bob;) )each have an ownership stake in that company and between the three have complete ownership?

Bruyneel does have a piece and has had a piece since they bought what was the USPS team from Thom Weisel. Both Armstrong and Bruyneel have said this, it should be no surprise. The Hog also owns all the trucks, cars, buses, and the service course.
 
Race Radio said:
Bruyneel does have a piece and has had a piece since they bought what was the USPS team from Thom Weisel. Both Armstrong and Bruyneel have said this, it should be no surprise. The Hog also owns all the trucks, cars, buses, and the service course.

Thanks for the info.

I don't get why or how Astana let him go. I hope they got something good in return, not because I think he has that much affect on his team's performance versus any other DS, but just to play hardball, same as anyone would.

I don't get a sense that Astana has a firm hand at the helm or any idea what direction they are headed. I wouldn't want to be on their team.
 
Sep 15, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Bruyneel does have a piece and has had a piece since they bought what was the USPS team from Thom Weisel. Both Armstrong and Bruyneel have said this, it should be no surprise. The Hog also owns all the trucks, cars, buses, and the service course.

CSE has three partners: Bart Knaggs, Bill Stapleton and Charlie Jones. Not sure where the former Tailwind Sports Corp. falls
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Bruyneel does have a piece and has had a piece since they bought what was the USPS team from Thom Weisel. Both Armstrong and Bruyneel have said this, it should be no surprise. The Hog also owns all the trucks, cars, buses, and the service course.

Didn't the Kazakhs get some or all of the Astana buses/cars/trucks as part of the deal where Johan was bought out this year? I think I read that in a Russian/Kaz source, but can't remember where now. Hopefully somebody else can verify or correct me.