Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[Zam_Olyas]

How long can you guys last before going personal?

Let's see.

From now on, the next one might win a vacation.

Will it be in Badhzillaland?

 

[Cyivel]

Will it be in Badhzillaland?

F U Zam. ....

 

[Zam_Olyas]

F U Zam. ....

I love you too but hate badzhilla.

 

[Hawkwood]

So youre saying he is lying and making up the stuff about Badzilla?

Its too bad sky didnt hire you as a google specialist earlier, maybe the whole Leinders fiasco could have been avoided.

If Dr Droth is an expert on tropical medicines then he will have a profile out there, papers, conferences etc. No `expert' nowadays will have zero profile on the web, it would be unheard of, in academia it would be fatal to your career. We routinely get tv and radio stations asking us to provide an `expert' for a news item, normally it's extremely difficult to provide one as a) they won't get paid much if anything, and b) it's not something they're interested in. In one case a junior lecturer did do a piece for the BBC, as the professors leading the team he was on wouldn't do it. One leading heart specialist I personally know has done one interview ever. Dr Droth may well be an expert on `badzilla' if so he's doing a good job of hiding his credentials. I'm not a Google specialist, I am someone who uses Google on a daily basis to check on research papers, academic profiles etc.

 

[Hawkwood]

Not odd at all. Have you heard of the other Doctors at the center?

Have you heard of the Doctors at the Kenyan center where froome was allegedly treated?

No.

You're chasing shadows there my friend.

Well a 10 second search for Dr Charles N Chunge, of the Kenya centre, produced this http://www.cttm-kenya.com/chunge-bio.html, and a further 10 seconds this:
12.
Chunge C.N.,
Pamba H.O.
:
Improved Treatment of Leishmaniasis using
Aminosidine plus Sodium Stibogluconate.
XIIth International Congress for Tropical
Medicine and Malaria, September 1988,
Amsterdam, Netherlands

Sorry for the formatting. So he was research active, I note he's had some fellowships so I would need to look up whether any papers came out of these.

 

[red_flanders]

Thanks. But most of those articles are from 1973.

The alternate link was from 2013.

I won't profess to be an expert on the matter.

Ms. Cound was on Velorooms for a little trying to explain it all and left.

Well the top 2 links are from 1973, it's a google search, so not "most" are. Don't know why the information would not be relevant now. Other much more up to date information is also accessible from that search. Seems clear that the parasite feeds in RBC's.

However, and again, the treatment course is always listed as one-time with additional monitoring for 6 months with the chance for a second dose.

No mention of situations where it would require repeated treatment over years except in cases where a population is living at or near the infection area, which is clearly not the case. In those cases repeated, annual treatment is recommended as a preventative measure for an entire population.

There is definitely some BS happening with regard to the badzilla story, but the fact that the parasites eat RBC's isn't BS.

 

[Hawkwood]

Not odd at all. Have you heard of the other Doctors at the center?

Have you heard of the Doctors at the Kenyan center where froome was allegedly treated?

No.

You're chasing shadows there my friend.

And Dr Ruth Chung, Dr Chung's wife and a fellow director has the following profile that indicates she's been research active: http://www.cttm-kenya.com/ruth-bio.html, a bit more digging and I could probably track down her papers. So it's easy to track down the credentials of real experts.

 

[thehog]

Well a 10 second search for Dr Charles N Chunge, of the Kenya centre, produced this http://www.cttm-kenya.com/chunge-bio.html, and a further 10 seconds this:
12.
Chunge C.N.,
Pamba H.O.
:
Improved Treatment of Leishmaniasis using
Aminosidine plus Sodium Stibogluconate.
XIIth International Congress for Tropical
Medicine and Malaria, September 1988,
Amsterdam, Netherlands

Sorry for the formatting. So he was research active, I note he's had some fellowships so I would need to look up whether any papers came out of these.

And at the Center Berlin? You can find them? Here you go:

http://tropeninstitut.charite.de/en/institute/team/

Not so hard was it?

Might be better if you add your questions and findings to the actual BadZhilla thread.

BroDeal put together some excellent research:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=21198

It is really stupid to have good information about bilharzia buried in a thread that has thousands of posts. A lot of that was interesting, and no one who was not following the bilharzia discussion in the Froome thread yesterday will ever read that discussion.

To buttress what was posted yesterday, I pulled this from a recent post on Slowtwitch:

"Some of the statements regarding bilharzia by Team Sky cannot be true.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/...arasite_295548

My wife works as a post-doc studying infectious diseases, primarily researching schistosomiasis - which is the more common, scientific name for bilharzia.
The treatment for schistosomiasis/bilharzia is biltricide (Praziquantel) as mentioned, but the treatment is a one-day treatment. Reference here: http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed...6b8#nlm34068-7 under dosage and adminsitration.

If schistosomasis/bilharzia was diagnosed in 2010, Froome should have been given the one day treatment and it should have no longer been an issue. The only reported occurrences of when the initial treatment does not eradicate the infection is when a heavy worm burden is in the system (i.e. a lot of worms infected Froome.) Even in those cases, treatment does not drag on for 18 months+. A heavy worm burden would also make the symptoms more severe than "I was always getting little colds and coughs, nothing serious".

Thus, it's unlikely to claim that it's still in his system (as of January according to the above article), unless he got re-infected by continuing to come into contact with contaminated waters. Given his reported history with this infection, that would be stupid.

There are other inconsistencies with the claims given:
"It’s not something that just disappears. It’s a parasite. It lays eggs. They might be dormant, then the eggs hatch, then they lay more eggs" - Completely false: Eggs laid in humans do not, and cannot hatch; they can only hatch in fresh water (after being excreted by humans). They also need interaction with snails before the hatched eggs can infect humans again. Source: Under Pathophysiology/Life Cycle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schistosomiasis, also fairly common knowledge for those familiar with the infection.

Biltricide "basically kills everything in your system" - also false, same link above about the treatment under Adverse Effects - "In general BILTRICIDE is very well tolerated. Side effects are usually mild and transient and do not require treatment." Thus, a week of not being able to ride his bike is a ridiculous statement.

I'm not sure why they would lie to / misinform us about something like this...".


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.c...637362;page=28

 

[Hawkwood]

And at the Center Berlin? You can find them? Here you go:

http://tropeninstitut.charite.de/en/institute/team/

Not so hard was it?

Might be better if you add your questions and findings to the actual BadZhilla thread.

BroDeal put together some excellent research:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=21198

Except that the radio article stated Droth worked here: http://www.bctropen.de/54-0-Impressum.html
Whatever, in the site you provided he's also not on the staff list.

 

[red_flanders]

And at the Center Berlin? You can find them? Here you go:

http://tropeninstitut.charite.de/en/institute/team/

Not so hard was it?

Sorry if I'm just missing it but I see no one named Groth at that site.

 

[The Hitch]

The only medical link I can find for Dr Groth shows that he is up to date with his training, that he is not a specialist in tropical medicine, and that he is based in Kiel. So very odd.

So youre saying he is lying and making up the stuff about Badzilla?

Its too bad sky didnt hire you as a google specialist earlier, maybe the whole Leinders fiasco could have been avoided.

Disagree with you there sceptic. Hakwood says he can't find DR. Groth's credentials, that is a valid point.

Of course even if Dr Groth were to be fake, all the evidence clearly points to that fact that at least some of the characteristics of the Bilharzia Froome claims to have, are made up.

For example of course, all the literature available, says clearly that the eggs DO NOT hatch inside the body which is the method Froome claims the Bilharzia reporduces itself in his body, and that is a massive hole in the Froome story.
And we have the great work done by FearlessGregLemond on here showing the contradictions between what various Sky staff say about the disease.

But in this case, I did say Dr Groth provides an expert opinion that counters Froome's story, so if Hakwood can't find him that is a valid point, since the argument is about whether we have a verified expert on our side.

What I would say in response though is that the fact that the radio station sought out his opinion, speaks strongly to the argument that he is in all truth an actual existing expert, but that itself leaves this particular debate in the inconclusive stage.

 

[Hawkwood]

Disagree with you there sceptic. Hakwood says he can't find DR. Groth's credentials, that is a valid point.

Of course even if Dr Groth were to be fake, all the evidence clearly points to that fact that at least some of the characteristics of the Bilharzia Froome claims to have, are made up.

For example of course, all the literature available, says clearly that the eggs DO NOT hatch inside the body which is the method Froome claims the Bilharzia reporduces itself in his body, and that is a massive hole in the Froome story.
And we have the great work done by FearlessGregLemond on here showing the contradictions between what various Sky staff say about the disease.

But in this case, I did say Dr Groth provides an expert opinion that counters Froome's story, so if Hakwood can't find him that is a valid point, since the argument is about whether we have a verified expert on our side.

What I would say in response though is that the fact that the radio station sought out his opinion, speaks strongly to the argument that he is in all truth an actual existing expert.

Actually I have no issue with the concerns over the effects of Bilharzia, I'm a Cav fan! In my world `expert' means someone you can look up in seconds, and there is a clear profile of papers and conference attendance. Groth doesn't have to be a fake, it's probably a case of either he or the radio station over-egging his expertise, it's normal.

 

[thehog]

Except that the radio article stated Droth worked here: http://www.bctropen.de/54-0-Impressum.html
Whatever, in the site you provided he's also not on the staff list.

Right you are.

The Berlin Center for Travel and Tropical Medicine, short BCRT is still a privately owned Tropical Institute, which provides medical consultation.

I'm only using Google as you are but they appear an impressive set-up.

Their owner http://www.bctropen.de/32-0-Tomas-Jelinek.html

Dr. Tomas-Jelinek appears well known.

 

[Catwhoorg]

That's pretty easily debunked. The parasites do feed on RBC's.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sch...7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

Searching the Google also will tell you however that one treatment is all that is needed in most cases, and for those who need further treatment it happens in the 6 months after the first. Well and easily managed with medical attention.

The Google does not seem to address why Froome needs to keep getting treatment or why he can't seem to recall when he got it or was treated for it with any consistency. The Google has limitations.

One angle for that is to do with the training load of an elite athlete. This is known to be sufficient to affect the immune system, such that he cannot clear it.

Maybe if he had treatment, follow-up after 6 months and sat out a year, he would be free of it for good. (Such as after he retires)

Or it could be an especially persistent variety.

Or it could just be a smoke screen.

 

[Hawkwood]

Right you are.



I'm only using Google as you are but they appear an impressive set-up.

Their owner http://www.bctropen.de/32-0-Tomas-Jelinek.html

Dr. Tomas-Jelinek appears well known.

I guess the radio station approached various people and they weren't interested, someone suggested Dr Groth knowing he had an interest in the subject. Whether he agreed to it, or not he was then set up as the `expert' by the radio station (don't worry we can edit that bit out later, not!). Also it could be that Groth is doing his own private research into this area, under the radar. I've been totally misrepresented in a radio interview and it embarrasses me to this day!

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Actually I have no issue with the concerns over the effects of Bilharzia, I'm a Cav fan! In my world `expert' means someone you can look up in seconds, and there is a clear profile of papers and conference attendance. Groth doesn't have to be a fake, it's probably a case of either he or the radio station over-egging his expertise, it's normal.

Cycling is different. Many considers RaceRadio to be an expert on Lance Armstrong though he doesn't publish any papers

 

[Hawkwood]

Cycling is different. Many considers RaceRadio to be an expert on Lance Armstrong though he doesn't publish any papers

Agreed, however we're talking medicine here so I would want to know that RR knew what he was doing he if was my surgeon!

 

[The Hitch]

One angle for that is to do with the training load of an elite athlete. This is known to be sufficient to affect the immune system, such that he cannot clear it.

If he isn't clear of it how on earth can he win the Tour de France by 5 minutes?

Either the worm is inside your body eating your blood cells or it is not.

Froome can't have had the worm in 2010 causing him to climb like an amateur and then in 2011 with the worm still in his body finish the Vuelta in the fastest time while domestiquing, then in early 2012 with the worm still in his body can't climb again, then can and even faster, then can't again, then breaks Armstrong's record.

First of all (from what I have read) it doesnot make any sense as the medicine Froome takes - Biltricide, is designed to kill the worm, not to put it to sleep for a few months.
Secondly Froome already claims to take a week off from cycling post Biltricide, so taking a month off to ensure its gone for ever would make million times more sense than risk your health and your career year after year after year taking shorter treatments. Especially since his career wasn't even much of a career when he started getting treatment.

Most importantly Froome himself claims that this is not how it works. He sees the worm gets killed off and the eggs hatch into new worms, not that the worms remain post treatment because he trains so hard.

 

[thehog]

I guess the radio station approached various people and they weren't interested... !

That would be speculating.

The radio station interviewed a Doctor who works in the area. He made comment in regards to the inconsistencies in the statements made by Froome/Sky.

I don't see anywhere whereby they claimed he was "well known" etc.

He appears a better choice to speak on the subject than say Brailsford.

I think a Doctor working in the area and treats patients with the same condition as Froome is an authority to speak on the subject.

It’s not the only opinion. But its worthy all the same.

 

[MatParker117]

Her's what another expert had to say:http://www.decodedscience.com/chris-froomes-parasite-what-is-bilharzia-anyway/33544/2

Schistosomiasis is, in a sense, incurable, if there is organ damage due to eggs remaining in the body. Thus, a person could suffer ill effects even if the worms themselves are gone. Whether or not this is true in any individual case depends on how many parasites there are, how long the person is infected, and how the immune system responds.

Schistosome eggs do not hatch inside the body, and even if they did, the parasites could not mature to adults. The life cycle absolutely requires the snail intermediate host. But as I mentioned above, the eggs are a problem in other ways.

Adult schistosomes do feed on the blood, and there is some evidence that blood parameters are affected. Again, how much would vary from one person to another.

It's not so unusual for someone to have a poor understanding of a medical condition. Parasites are complicated, and misunderstood even by many physicians. There is much misinformation about them!

 

[Hawkwood]

That would be speculating.

The radio station interviewed a Doctor who works in the area. He made comment in regards to the inconsistencies in the statements made by Froome/Sky.

I don't see anywhere whereby they claimed he was "well known" etc.

He appears a better choice to speak on the subject than say Brailsford.

I think a Doctor working in the area and treats patients with the same condition as Froome is an authority to speak on the subject.

It’s not the only opinion. But its worthy all the same.

I'm not necessarily arguing with that, but I think a poster said he was an expert. The only information I can find on Dr Droth is here: http://www.frm-web.de/gelbfieber-impfstellen?view=member&id=1639. To get only one hit apart from the radio one really is very unusual. You'd get more hits for me and I'm not famous/important/an expert. I don't think the radio station has misspelt his name....

 

[Catwhoorg]

If he isn't clear of it how on earth can he win the Tour de France by 5 minutes?

Either the worm is inside your body eating your blood cells or it is not.

The active worms nestle together, often in the liver, and secrete eggs.
It is the inflammatory reaction to the eggs that causes the majority of the symptoms.

Slight anemia is common in infected individuals, due to blood loss in the stools and urine.

Don't clear out all the adult pairs, and the issue will come back.

The worms do not 'eat red cells', the typical parasite that does that is malaria.

So the answer to your question, the worms are not eating his red cells.


(I also said take a year off, not a month)

 

[The Hitch]

Her's what another expert had to say:http://www.decodedscience.com/chris-froomes-parasite-what-is-bilharzia-anyway/33544/2

That was linked long ago and discussed at length. It clearly contradicts Sky's story here

Schistosome eggs do not hatch inside the body, and even if they did, the parasites could not mature to adults.

&#8220] the eggs hatch[/B], then they lay more eggs,” Brailsford said. “You have to stay on top of it, be vigilant, that’s why he keeps having treatments so it’s completely eradicated over time.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...e-still-treated-for-bilharzia-parasite_295548

The active worms nestle together, often in the liver, and secrete eggs.
It is the inflammatory reaction to the eggs that causes the majority of the symptoms.

Slight anemia is common in infected individuals, due to blood loss in the stools and urine.

Don't clear out all the adult pairs, and the issue will come back.

The worms do not 'eat red cells', the typical parasite that does that is malaria.

So the answer to your question, the worms are not eating his red cells.


(I also said take a year off, not a month)

If the worms are not eating his red cells then why after his first treatment was he unable to race well at the Tour of Poland and why after his Vuelta did he cite Bilharzia as an excuse for being so poor in the first half of the season.

Either Bilharzia effects him or it doesn't, why does it only effect him when he isn't at a season aim?

And either way, once again the whole thing is subverted by the fact that Sky clearly say that your theory is not what is going on.

 

[MatParker117]

That was linked long ago and discussed at length. It clearly contradicts Sky's story here





http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...e-still-treated-for-bilharzia-parasite_295548

Please May I direct you to the end of the piece:

It's not so unusual for someone to have a poor understanding of a medical condition. Parasites are complicated, and misunderstood even by many physicians. There is much misinformation about them!

 

[Catwhoorg]

The comments about the eggs not maturing, outside of the snail intermediate is correct. That's the way these sorts of parasites work.

(Badzilla is not the only example of such a lifecycle. Tapeworms are another commonly known one.)