So....cav outside time limit but race organisers let him stay in TDF

[sartoris]

The rules are for everyone. Cav should be forbidden to race tomorrow. This is totally outrageous and unfair!!

 

[El Pistolero]

Cav shouldn't be singled out like in this thread though. Phil failed the time cut as well.

 

[spalco]

why bother to have a time limit?

That's a good question actually. Why have a time limit at all?

 

[K-0tic]

Again: Rules are designed with a certain purpose. In this case, the rule is not being used for this purpose but for abuse. It is not for nothing Cav has been awarded with -20 points. I don't care however if it was Cav or not.

Let's just say Martin didn't make the time gap and Cancellara did while it costed him a huge effort. Now on saturday Martin wins the TT because Cancellara is too tired. Pure abuse!

 

[benpounder]

Given the arbitrary nature of the time limit, an acceptance that the time limit is too tight if a large number fail to get inside it is logical IMO.

It is not arbitrary; the time limit is a set percentage of the winning time based upon what kph the winning time was ridden. While I agree with the race jury in allowing all riders outside the time limit today to continue tomorrow, I think the penalty ought to be more severe. If winning a flat stage is worth 45 points and the intermediate sprint another 20, then slacking off in the mountains ought to cost at least 45 points.

 

[khodder]

I really like the Time Limit rule, it stops guys soft peddling and coming in over an hour down on a stage just to save energy for the next stage, however I also like some of the allowances.

Basically as it is I would leave the time limits how they are, have the 20% exception rule, if the riders finish in a large group. However if you finish behind a "large" group you will be eliminated.

However becasue you did in fact finish outside the time limits you will be deducted the number of points you garner in the (for the tour) Green Jersey competition for winning a flat stage (This year 45).

 

[luckyboy]

They should ease the actual time limit %, and abandon the 20% of the field rule.

 

[spalco]

I really like the Time Limit rule, it stops guys soft peddling and coming in over an hour down on a stage just to save energy for the next stage, however I also like some of the allowances.

Why exactly should that be punished? The punishment is the additional time they get added to their total. Of course you'll say that nobody cares if he's 145th in the GC or 164th, but it is a race, and technically that's what it's all about.

This thread is seriously the dumbest thing I've ever read in this forum (no offense to the OP who misunderstood the circumstances, but yes offense to everyone else who keeps harping on about this)

 

[SirLes]

It is not arbitrary; the time limit is a set percentage of the winning time based upon what kph the winning time was ridden. While I agree with the race jury in allowing all riders outside the time limit today to continue tomorrow, I think the penalty ought to be more severe. If winning a flat stage is worth 45 points and the intermediate sprint another 20, then slacking off in the mountains ought to cost at least 45 points.

Exactly. They could set the % of the winners time to anything they wanted to. They have chosen particular % for particular types of stages. There is no reason those % could not be set either more or less. (why 3% and not 3.14% for example) The ASO realise that the time limit is there for essentially logistical reasons rather than purely sporting and so have been happy to alter it if what essentially are their guesstimates are found to be wrong.

Does anyone know when time limits were introduced?

 

[thirteen]

They should ease the actual time limit %, and abandon the 20% of the field rule.

agree.
10 char

 

[Sidbike]

I like it just the way it is. Cav finished in a group of 96 riders today. The race jury decision gives us a reason to watch Sunday's stage. It would be a pretty different race on Sunday without those guys.

 

[khodder]

Why exactly should that be punished? The punishment is the additional time they get added to their total. Of course you'll say that nobody cares if he's 145th in the GC or 164th, but it is a race, and technically that's what it's all about.

This thread is seriously the dumbest thing I've ever read in this forum (no offense to the OP who misunderstood the circumstances, but yes offense to everyone else who keeps harping on about this)

Becasue you then create a circusm stacen where you haev a group of 80-90 guys who finish todays and tomorrows stages in 10 hours just to save a bit of enegry for the ITT

You create as cirucumstance where the jersey that was originally created for "The most consistent finisher" ends up on the shoulder of a guy who can only compete on flatlands.

The Time Limit and its punishments are a neccessary evil to stop mountain stages becoming sunday recovery sessions for the sprinters and TT'ers.

 

[Mambo95]

It is not arbitrary; the time limit is a set percentage of the winning time based upon what kph the winning time was ridden.

It is arbitrary. The time limit today was 9%. Last year it was 10% (which they would have been inside). Why the 1% cut? Why 9%, why not 12% (as it will be tomorrow for the same speed)?

The time cuts are pre-set, but what they are set at is pretty arbitrary.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

I like it just the way it is. Cav finished in a group of 96 riders today. The race jury decision gives us a reason to watch Sunday's stage. It would be a pretty different race on Sunday without those guys.

It might actually be exciting.

 

[khodder]

It is arbitrary. The time limit today was 9%. Last year it was 10% (which they would have been inside). Why the 1% cut? Why 9%, why not 12% (as it will be tomorrow for the same speed)?

The time cuts are pre-set, but what they are set at is pretty arbitrary.

How do you know it will be 12% tomorrow. Is it not based off the speed of the leading rider, the slower the pace of the leading rider the shorter the time gap.

 

[The Sheep]

It might actually be exciting.

yeah just needed Rojas to be out of time as well to have interesting race sunday

 

[2wheels]

Here's one possibility for a rule change: If you miss a time cut, you can stay in the race-- BUT, however much you miss it by, you start the next day's stage at that same exact time disadvantage. So tomorrow we'd have 88 guys starting two minutes or so behind the field, and they'd have some serious work to rejoin the bunch-- thereby undoing any favors they got by resting the day before.

That said-- I'd still keep the points penalty as well.

 

[Mambo95]

How do you know it will be 12% tomorrow. Is it not based off the speed of the leading rider, the slower the pace of the leading rider the shorter the time gap.

I said for the same speed. So if it's 32-33kph tomorrow (like today) it will be 12% (tomorrow's stage is a category 4 stage, today's was a category 3)

 

[Mambo95]

Here's one possibility for a rule change: If you miss a time cut, you can stay in the race-- BUT, however much you miss it by, you start the next day's stage at that same exact time disadvantage. So tomorrow we'd have 88 guys starting two minutes or so behind the field, and they'd have some serious work to rejoin the bunch-- thereby undoing any favors they got by resting the day before.

Most of the front group would sit up and wait. They want their teammates.

 

[L29205]

It is arbitrary. The time limit today was 9%. Last year it was 10% (which they would have been inside). Why the 1% cut? Why 9%, why not 12% (as it will be tomorrow for the same speed)?

The time cuts are pre-set, but what they are set at is pretty arbitrary.

I would suspect that the difference between the years is related to the fact the coefficient 3 was the highest for mountain stages last year. This year they added the coefficient 4 for mountain stages.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The problem is that as long as a mountain stage is worth as much as an intermediate sprint, and missing the time cut is worth as much as coming about 7th in a bunch sprint, the riders don't really have to care. Cav could happily miss both time cuts and, with only 5 points to make up, flatten Rojas in the one remaining flat stage. If the penalty was as much as a flat stage win then they might reconsider.

Not that it matters. The rules are the rules, stupid or sensible, and this was the rule before Prudhomme's changing the rules to make it more suited to Cavendish, so that can't be blamed.

It's a rubbish rule that needs reforming to make the bus actually give a damn and is disappointing for the specatcle of the race, but keeping Cav in the race and penalising him 20 points is absolutely the right decision.

 

[2wheels]

Most of the front group would sit up and wait. They want their teammates.

That would be their choice, but there could be plenty of opportunists who wouldn't sit around and wait. Imagine if one team had to pace their sprinter back from a two-minute deficit while other green jersey candidates were off and running towards an intermediate sprint.

Plus, this might cure another abuse of the system; i.e. riders taking a "day off" to charge their batteries and attack the next day.

 

[zombo10]

Times limit depending on the winner for tomorrow:

34 km/h -> 27 minutes
36 km/h -> 29 minutes
38 km/h -> 31 minutes

 

[Rooboy]

A couple of points:

- in reality cut off times have nothing to do with logistics. Yes it will upset some minimum wage ASO workers if a rider comes in an hour late but have you ever seen/heard of them pulling a rider off the road. Those at the top are already in their hotels or helis.

- the cut of time is not arbitary!!!! To say otherwise (no matter how many posts you have) is complete ignorance.

- the cut off times are designed to prevent sitting up to have an easy day, only to kick backside the next. This is why they are important to keep.

- there is a (good?) possibility the current 20% (subjective) rule is being abused.

SOLUTION:

- keep the annoying complicated cut off times as they are. The've worked pretty well until now. It also amuses me how the ignorant broadcasters/posters can't work it out.

- keep the discretionary 20% rule and also the crash/injury rule.

- however if like today they take the mickey there has to be more punishment. They almost got it right with the negative point system but it needs to be a more sliding scale. They need a buffer zone. Inside the days designated time and you are fine. If you just miss it (by say 5 mins) you still can still race but for every 10 secs (eg) you lose 5 points/seconds in each jersey comp.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Times limit depending on the winner for tomorrow:

34 km/h -> 27 minutes
36 km/h -> 29 minutes
38 km/h -> 31 minutes

This is just stupid. There should be a fixed number for all road stages. 25 minutes would be good.