This TDF was lost by a mechanical... pretty incredible IMO. I hope that mechanic is beheaded, and then sacked. And I hope Andy makes a huge deal about switching over to Shimano Electronic and then promotes the hell out of them as he wins next years TdF.
Alberto is the deserving winner. Had to ride a very conservative race, to say the least, tagging Andy all the way to today's TT.
All who say Andy should've won: Andy, to be fair and square, and letting the road dictate who is in 1st and 2nd, doesn't even deserve to be in 2nd. Andy was given a HUGE gift when he fell in the Ardennes. Don't you ever forget that!
This is bicycle racing, not Christmas.
You fall, you're on your own. Regardless of podium chances.
Bítching about lost chances and missed opportunities is a sign of weakness, and I'm sure Alberto is taking this win as a lesson that if he does not come in at 100% then it is basically a toss-up between him and 4-5 riders.
All who say Andy should've won: Andy, to be fair and square, and letting the road dictate who is in 1st and 2nd, doesn't even deserve to be in 2nd. Andy was given a HUGE gift when he fell in the Ardennes. Don't you ever forget that!
This is bicycle racing, not Christmas.
You fall, you're on your own. Regardless of podium chances.
Bítching about lost chances and missed opportunities is a sign of weakness, and I'm sure Alberto is taking this win as a lesson that if he does not come in at 100% then it is basically a toss-up between him and 4-5 riders.
This has already been discussed ad nauseam in the other thread, but I still don't think you can compare what happened in stage 15 to what happened in stages two and three. In stage two you had an almost unprecedented situation where the oil spilled from the motorbike on the descent caused almost the entire field to crash (some riders multiple times). In that situation it was the right thing to do to neutralize the stage since essentially the entire field was affected.
Stage three was a Paris Roubaix style race over the cobblestones which sets it apart from the other stages in the race. Obviously in this kind of race luck is involved due to crashes and mechanicals, however avoiding these is not entirely luck and it is important to ride aggressive and stay at the front throughout the race. Schleck was not delayed by the crash in part because his team was driving the pace at the front and had him positioned at the front, Contador and others who lost time were delayed in part because their teams did not position them well. It can be debated whether it is appropriate to have this kind of stage in the tour, but I don't think there was anything unfair about the way the race was contested.
Stage 15 was a different story. I think it is pretty clear Contador knew Schleck had dropped his chain and chose to take advantage of the situation to attack and gain time. I don't condemn Contador for this or think he is a dirty rider, but I think it did show poor sportsmanship and I don't think he was entirely honest in his account of what happened at the end of the race.
In the end I think we just had a race with two evenly matched riders who were both worthy of winning the race. In a close race like this there are bound to be controversial moments that could have tipped the race either way. It has been fun debating them but ultimately I think you have to congratulate both riders on what was a competitive and hard fought race.
Stage three was a Paris Roubaix style race over the cobblestones which sets it apart from the other stages in the race. Obviously in this kind of race luck is involved due to crashes and mechanicals, however avoiding these is not entirely luck and it is important to ride aggressive and stay at the front throughout the race. Schleck was not delayed by the crash in part because his team was driving the pace at the front and had him positioned at the front, Contador and others who lost time were delayed in part because their teams did not position them well. It can be debated whether it is appropriate to have this kind of stage in the tour, but I don't think there was anything unfair about the way the race was contested.
Stage 15 was a different story. I think it is pretty clear Contador knew Schleck had dropped his chain and chose to take advantage of the situation to attack and gain time. I don't condemn Contador for this or think he is a dirty rider, but I think it did show poor sportsmanship and I don't think he was entirely honest in his account of what happened at the end of the race.
In the end I think we just had a race with two evenly matched riders who were both worthy of winning the race. In a close race like this there are bound to be controversial moments that could have tipped the race either way. It has been fun debating them but ultimately I think you have to congratulate both riders on what was a competitive and hard fought race.
Amazingly it was 39 seconds. I have mixed feelings about it.
Without getting into whether or not AC should have waited, it's certainly an advantage to go out last.
I really thought AC was going to dominate this tour. He seems to have lost some top end (maybe coupled with AS gaining some). Given that he's so evenly matched (which I think he knew), he did everything he had to do to win. However given the "traditions" of the TDF, his win will be questioned. That said, it was not a normal TDF with the cobbles and all. It's unusual to see gaps open up between GT contenders on flat stages. Without stage 3, AS would have lost by a bigger margin though we do have to wonder about his opening ITT given his final ITT.
Next year should be super competitive. We still have yet to see were AS and AC end up. Assuming AS gets a GT team, we could be in for some close racing for years.
Without getting into whether or not AC should have waited, it's certainly an advantage to go out last.
I really thought AC was going to dominate this tour. He seems to have lost some top end (maybe coupled with AS gaining some). Given that he's so evenly matched (which I think he knew), he did everything he had to do to win. However given the "traditions" of the TDF, his win will be questioned. That said, it was not a normal TDF with the cobbles and all. It's unusual to see gaps open up between GT contenders on flat stages. Without stage 3, AS would have lost by a bigger margin though we do have to wonder about his opening ITT given his final ITT.
Next year should be super competitive. We still have yet to see were AS and AC end up. Assuming AS gets a GT team, we could be in for some close racing for years.
Moose McKnuckles said:
This is my idea for tomorow... Since Contador only has 39 seconds on Schleck the peloton should let Andy and Alberto ride ahead - make it a two man race - and see if Andy can take the 39 seconds away from Alberto...
goggalor said:
Ha ha! he should. Again!
cyclestationgiuseppe said:
What a difference! Frank gives his brother his bike... Frank attacks to draw Contador out.. Cool thought...
JeffreyPerry said:
Good points...
Polish said:
Yep!
SilentAssassin said:
And so it is...
movingtarget said:
I really feel for Hushovd, actually... he would have easily taken another stage!
Inner Peace said:
Great argument. Nice writing!
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If Contador was not in yellow the day of the Tourmalet, he would have attacked Andy relentlessly, and picked up a minute or more on him. So the 39 seconds do not matter. Contador is still the best. And he probably will be again next year.
VDB and Gesink may challenge him along with Andy.
Andre
VDB and Gesink may challenge him along with Andy.
Andre
- Jul 16, 2010
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Why does everyone blame SRAM/Specialized and the mechanic first? Perhaps Andy Schleck is the one to blame here? He had shifting problems again this TT... Perhaps he just can't handle a bike as well as the rest.
And if we don't count in stage 2, 3 and chaingate(as I doubt those stages will make it into the Tour of 2011 again) then Contador would have had a lead of 42 seconds before going into the TT(assuming they couldn't drop each other in the mountain stages, which they could not)
Contador won and Schleck needs to train his bike handling skills.
And if we don't count in stage 2, 3 and chaingate(as I doubt those stages will make it into the Tour of 2011 again) then Contador would have had a lead of 42 seconds before going into the TT(assuming they couldn't drop each other in the mountain stages, which they could not)
Contador won and Schleck needs to train his bike handling skills.
- Jun 19, 2009
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roundabout said:
Not this year.
We'll see what he says in a couple days. Methinks he's going to say that he messed up his preparation and came in at about 95%.
Either that or he was just making sure he had enough gas in the tank to ride this year's Vuelta.
i don't really care who won, this sport lost its hold on me for good in 2006.
but for anyone who has followed the sport for longer than the past 11 years--and i followed it and loved it from 1981 until 2006 (though the love affair part started to wane admittedly in 1999), you cannot seriously say that there has not been unwritten rules of good sportsmanship:
1. against attacking the yellow jersey for mechanicals and accidents
2. that whoever is in the yellow jersey, as well as any elder statesman of the tour, can call for the neutralization of a stage (whether in protest for kicking festina out in 1999 or because a stage is viewed as unnecessarily dangerous as in this tour in stage 2).
anyone who says otherwise either does not know the tour's history and traditions, or is lying.
regarding stage 2: fabian was in yellow and is one of the elder statesmen of the sport--which was exactly why the peloton did what he asked them to do. it is completely illogical to claim that a stage, which benefited no one, cost anyone the tour. if everyone comes in at the same time, then no one has benefited and so no one has been harmed--ergo the word "neutralized."
the time gaps between the podium contenders at that point were so small, that to say menchov's tour was stolen do to good sportsmanship by his fellow cyclists is nonsensical. no one held menchov back in stage 2, he chose to turn it off, as did thor, and the rest of the peloton. it was their choice; had any chose to attack or refuse to comply, there was nothing fabian or anyone else could do to stop them. that is the difference between a rule and good sportsmanship, and why following the latter means so much than following the former. (funny how so many seem to forget that fabian sacrificed his yellow that day as well).
regarding stage 3: the only reason to throw a cobbles stage into the tour is to throw in chaos and confusion into the tour. everyone knew going into stage 3 that mechanicals and accidents were going to be the rule not the exception; which is why some riders, including both schelcks, felt that it was wrong to include it, becase the tour isn't supposed to be about technology, it is supposed to be about endurance and strength and heart.
compare stage 3 to a normal stage in the tour, whether flat or mountainous--unlike any other stage, every team had mechanics placed all over the course with wheels and parts because they knew they would likely be needed. unlike any other stage, the riders could only receive help from thier own team cars, and not the neutral service car--because coping with chaos is why the stage was included. lastly, fabian and andy did not attack, they rode at a constant tempo at the front from the get go.
to say that andy benefitted from his brother's serious crash is really pretty crass, and to say that andy owed alberto for any time alberto may have lost due to andy's brother's compound collar bone fracture is just tacky. alberto went in to that stage with a pretty decent time gap from the prologue, and came out with what should have been an insignificant time loss for "the best climber in the world, who everyone knew would easily take out at least a minute and half in the last time trial anyway."
the dropped chain: it was unsporting for alberto to captialize on it; not because it was andy, but because it was just bad sportsmanship, plain and simple, defied and sullied the longtime traditions of the tour.
andy was in yellow, and the yellow jersey is what was insulted by alberto's behavior. comparisons to F1 are spurious. auto racing of all types, arose as a test of technology and engineering--which is why driver error is not an issue. the tour arose as a test to see who was the strongest man--and in fact, technological and engineering advantages have been held at bay by the organizers since the tour's inception. the tour is not supposed to be a test of whose got the best bike, but whose got the biggest heart and the strongest legs. most seem to be confusing not-cheating with sportsmanship. but they are not synonyms.
the only thing left for this sport, since the performances--none of them--can be viewed without skepticism--is its silly, quaint, charming traditions, like not capitalizing on misfortune and the esprit de corps of the peloton as whole. without those tradtions, there is nothing left, but a filthy sport full of fakes and frauds and a$$holes, lacking even the barest modicum of sportsmanship and decency.
without the dropped chain, andy would have finished first. but even with it, he still is the winner of this tour. alberto did not cheat, but nor did he win. he simply ends in first place. that is not the same thing as being a champion; it is not the same thing as winning (in the true sense of the word--a word used to honor results like John Akhwari coming in dead last in the marathon of the 1968 Summer Olympics). only champions win. but not all champions finish first.
at every turn people said that andy would loose huge time: on the cobbles, in the time trial, in the mountains. and at every stage he proved the naysayers wrong. i am far too cynical to view his achievement without questioning its legitimacy, but i nonetheless, recognize that it is an achievement far greater than anything alberto achieved in this tour.
the fact that so many devotees of this sport openly disparage good sportsmanship, only confirms that this sport has become a shameful waste of time. :sad:
but for anyone who has followed the sport for longer than the past 11 years--and i followed it and loved it from 1981 until 2006 (though the love affair part started to wane admittedly in 1999), you cannot seriously say that there has not been unwritten rules of good sportsmanship:
1. against attacking the yellow jersey for mechanicals and accidents
2. that whoever is in the yellow jersey, as well as any elder statesman of the tour, can call for the neutralization of a stage (whether in protest for kicking festina out in 1999 or because a stage is viewed as unnecessarily dangerous as in this tour in stage 2).
anyone who says otherwise either does not know the tour's history and traditions, or is lying.
regarding stage 2: fabian was in yellow and is one of the elder statesmen of the sport--which was exactly why the peloton did what he asked them to do. it is completely illogical to claim that a stage, which benefited no one, cost anyone the tour. if everyone comes in at the same time, then no one has benefited and so no one has been harmed--ergo the word "neutralized."
the time gaps between the podium contenders at that point were so small, that to say menchov's tour was stolen do to good sportsmanship by his fellow cyclists is nonsensical. no one held menchov back in stage 2, he chose to turn it off, as did thor, and the rest of the peloton. it was their choice; had any chose to attack or refuse to comply, there was nothing fabian or anyone else could do to stop them. that is the difference between a rule and good sportsmanship, and why following the latter means so much than following the former. (funny how so many seem to forget that fabian sacrificed his yellow that day as well).
regarding stage 3: the only reason to throw a cobbles stage into the tour is to throw in chaos and confusion into the tour. everyone knew going into stage 3 that mechanicals and accidents were going to be the rule not the exception; which is why some riders, including both schelcks, felt that it was wrong to include it, becase the tour isn't supposed to be about technology, it is supposed to be about endurance and strength and heart.
compare stage 3 to a normal stage in the tour, whether flat or mountainous--unlike any other stage, every team had mechanics placed all over the course with wheels and parts because they knew they would likely be needed. unlike any other stage, the riders could only receive help from thier own team cars, and not the neutral service car--because coping with chaos is why the stage was included. lastly, fabian and andy did not attack, they rode at a constant tempo at the front from the get go.
to say that andy benefitted from his brother's serious crash is really pretty crass, and to say that andy owed alberto for any time alberto may have lost due to andy's brother's compound collar bone fracture is just tacky. alberto went in to that stage with a pretty decent time gap from the prologue, and came out with what should have been an insignificant time loss for "the best climber in the world, who everyone knew would easily take out at least a minute and half in the last time trial anyway."
the dropped chain: it was unsporting for alberto to captialize on it; not because it was andy, but because it was just bad sportsmanship, plain and simple, defied and sullied the longtime traditions of the tour.
andy was in yellow, and the yellow jersey is what was insulted by alberto's behavior. comparisons to F1 are spurious. auto racing of all types, arose as a test of technology and engineering--which is why driver error is not an issue. the tour arose as a test to see who was the strongest man--and in fact, technological and engineering advantages have been held at bay by the organizers since the tour's inception. the tour is not supposed to be a test of whose got the best bike, but whose got the biggest heart and the strongest legs. most seem to be confusing not-cheating with sportsmanship. but they are not synonyms.
the only thing left for this sport, since the performances--none of them--can be viewed without skepticism--is its silly, quaint, charming traditions, like not capitalizing on misfortune and the esprit de corps of the peloton as whole. without those tradtions, there is nothing left, but a filthy sport full of fakes and frauds and a$$holes, lacking even the barest modicum of sportsmanship and decency.
without the dropped chain, andy would have finished first. but even with it, he still is the winner of this tour. alberto did not cheat, but nor did he win. he simply ends in first place. that is not the same thing as being a champion; it is not the same thing as winning (in the true sense of the word--a word used to honor results like John Akhwari coming in dead last in the marathon of the 1968 Summer Olympics). only champions win. but not all champions finish first.
at every turn people said that andy would loose huge time: on the cobbles, in the time trial, in the mountains. and at every stage he proved the naysayers wrong. i am far too cynical to view his achievement without questioning its legitimacy, but i nonetheless, recognize that it is an achievement far greater than anything alberto achieved in this tour.
the fact that so many devotees of this sport openly disparage good sportsmanship, only confirms that this sport has become a shameful waste of time. :sad:
If Alberto wins by 39 seconds this year as he willl, a) he should pull Andy up on the top platform with him, b) it means the Tour de France is going to be even more exciting next year and years that follow.
Is it the most controversial win ever, not in my opinion. The year that Greg LeMond was told to stop peddaling by his team so that Bernard Hinault could catch him and win the Tour was much more controversial. Perhaps the positive outcome is that we now have multiple teams sponsored by USA corporations in the tour.
Is it the most controversial win ever, not in my opinion. The year that Greg LeMond was told to stop peddaling by his team so that Bernard Hinault could catch him and win the Tour was much more controversial. Perhaps the positive outcome is that we now have multiple teams sponsored by USA corporations in the tour.
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spectacle said:
Andy Schleck did not wait for Chavanel when he had a mechanical during stage 3.
Take your hypocrisy elsewhere please.
Most people said Contador would lose a lot of time on the cobbles because his team wasn't good enough on the cobbles. Every GC contender would have been able to gain a lot of time on that stage if they could suck Cancellara's wheel. And Cancellara most definitely started to increase his tempo when all important GC contenders were stuck behind Frank Schleck's crash.
Andy's chain dropped because of HIS fault, I think that's proven now after it almost happened again this Time Trial. And Alberto only needed 31/32 seconds in this Time Trial if the chain didn't drop. Not 39... You know, you can win a Tour with a second
He didn't need 39 seconds, but 31/32 seconds.
- May 9, 2009
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El Pistolero said:
+1.
Stage 19 -- Baby Andy ATTACKS and screws up his attack. You want his opponents, those being attacked, to WAIT for their attacker...just to be attacked once again??? Seriously off your rocker. BA attacked and lost that battle; he also lost the war.
Baby Andy better hope his pair drops before 2011 (a few basic bike handling courses couldn't hurt either).
- Mar 17, 2009
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Andy rode a great race. Some things broke his way (stage 2 and 3) and some things did not (attempting to shift under full power while attacking; not strong enough to drop Contador in the mountains). He rode a phenomenal time trial and I look forward to the next battle between he and Contador.
That being said, let me congratulate Alberto Contador on his 3rd Tour de France championship and his 5 Grand Tour victory in as many starts. Chapeau!
That being said, let me congratulate Alberto Contador on his 3rd Tour de France championship and his 5 Grand Tour victory in as many starts. Chapeau!
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hrotha said:
I did read it. He started yapping about who's the real champion here.
Not Andy at least.
The thing is, Andy lost the last 5 Grand Tours he rode. Contador won the last 5 Grand Tours he rode.
Wow, Schleck is the real winner of the Tour de France. I never expected that to happen.
Now you can see why he didn't wait - he knew he was going to lose.
Now you can see why he didn't wait - he knew he was going to lose.
spectacle said:
Which, coincidentally, is when Alberto Contador started winning his TdFs and the other two grand tours.
Since I've heard this song before I presume you're going to succeed it all with calls for "fair play" (whatever that is) and making sure the parish is aware of your "neutrality" and your "I hate no niggaz" attitude.
God allmighty!
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