Speech by Greg Lemond

[BroDeal]

In the Dr. Michael Ashenden interview that was posted on another thread:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

A relevant section:

for example in the article that was published after his first test session in Coyle's lab when the photographs were taken, they report him as being 77, 78 kilos. You contrast that with the data in Coyle's paper, and he shows that the lowest body weight was 75 kilos in '93, but in November after his first Tour victory, it was 79 kilos.

Now, Coyle would have us believe that he was 72 kilos at the Tour de France. Armstrong is on the record saying that he was absolutely fastidious about what he ate, and when he ate and how he ate. It is incomprehensible that someone would get himself into such perfect condition and then essentially eat like a horse so that his body weight ballooned up to 79 kilos, and then somehow intend to go back through that hell to lose 7 kilos again for the next race. That's just not true, it doesn't happen.

Armstrong acknowldeged under oath that his body weight never got to 72, he was a little vague, but he said he was happy when he raced in the 74's. Now if you admit you were probably 74 you were probably a lot heavier than that.

 

[Anonymous]

you never miss a chance to pile on do you.

but i have told you before that any attack from you will never ever go unanswered.

i just admitted that i was wrong in reacting the way i did to your post about the myth of lances weight loss due to cancer. but given my state of mind and my very real hatred of you, it seemed reasonable at the time.

my offer to you stands, more than ever.

and i know i'm not the only one who has called you out so don't you don't get to portray me as some lone nutjob that unfairly has it in for you.

jack, you really need to chill. This is a forum where people discuss, debate, and argue about cycling. To develop actual hatred for someone based on that is indicative of an unstable psyche. Really man, you are wrapped a little too tight about this and you need to just let it go.

 

[Anonymous]

Well then I guess I did...suck it up nutjob.

ok, i've tried responding to you in a sincere fashion and i get ***** slapped for my efforts.

when are you in columbus next? mabye you and your **** buddy brodeal can get a deal on plane tickets.

 

[BroDeal]

my offer to you stands, more than ever.

and i know i'm not the only one who has called you out so don't you don't get to portray me as some lone nutjob that unfairly has it in for you.

Actually, dude, I have been on the net a long time, before the WWW even existed and people used Usenet for discussion. In all that time, despite me often being rather abrasive, I have never had anyone offer to fight me. You are the only one. Since you have gotten yourself into rows with at least half a dozen other posters, I suspect that you yourself are the problem.

BTW, since you are the one proposing a duel then I guess we should follow tradition. The choice of weapon falls to me. How are you with an epee?

 

[krebs303]

Gentlemen,
Please enough!
are you going to meet after school behind the library?
give peace a chance.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

Actually, dude, I have been on the net a long time, before the WWW even existed and people used Usenet for discussion.....

....BTW, since you are the one proposing a duel then I guess we should follow tradition. The choice of weapon falls to me. How are you with an epee?

'Brodeal' = Dwight K. Schrute

 

[ElChingon]

TRDean and Jackhammer111 just go start a thread where you two can enjoy each other's company, the thread will be in the open so anyone who wants to read it can. Your personal issues are not the title of this thread so go away.

Mods, can you do the threat/ban warning to these two?

 

[Eva Maria]

The 47-year-old recalled meeting Ferrari in 1994. "I had an SRM meter and he looked down at me and said, 'What is that?' I said, 'It's a watt-measuring device'. He said, 'What do you need that for?' I said, 'So I can see if I'm progressing, when I should be recovering and when I should train again'... He had no concept of it.

Now I don't want to defend Dr. Ferrari, but I knew him while I was a medical student in Bologna, Italy during the late 80' and 90's. He was also one of the first Italians to race triathlons at that time. I also had the opportunity for him perform Conconi tests on myself and the other members of my team numerous times during that period. I remember seeing him in the fall of '91 and discussing wattage based training methods. While I was a medical student, I had the type of conversation with him that he is referring to. Only it was in 1991. In fact, the office based Conconi tests were performed on a stationary cycle that read watts. He was obsessed with watt/kg numbers. Lemond makes some interesting points when he discusses doping, but this statement is flat out wrong. Unfortunately, there are very few people who can call him him out on this type of stuff. Now it makes me wonder about the other stuff he spews.

It appears that Ferrari recalls the meeting much the same as Greg did. He talks about the meeting, how he dismissed the SRM, and of course takes a shot at Greg for getting fat.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/features/diaries/ferrari.php?id=ferrari0410#20

We introduced ourselves and he did show me an SRM power meter mounted on his bike. I objected that I still preferred to rely on heart rate for the training programs of my athletes, essentially because the latter allowed the evaluation of the so-called 'carico interno' (internal loading) of work that they were subjected to.

In fact, watt measuring gives a rather absolute evaluation, not considering the fluctuations in condition of the athlete: the same load of 400 watts may change 'meaning' from day to day, according to status of fatigue in the rider.

Today, more than 10 years later, I still tend to evaluate with much prudence all the numbers we get from computers, always integrating them with the feelings and the instinct of the athlete.

 

[ElChingon]

Still am I the only one who questions why they ran into each other in the first place? Seems they are of different nationalities, Greg a retired pro racer out testing a new power meeter, Ferrari young researcher/doctor just out in the same location? Its seems more than a coincidence to me.

 

[BigBoat]

Still am I the only one who questions why they ran into each other in the first place? Seems they are of different nationalities, Greg a retired pro racer out testing a new power meeter, Ferrari young researcher/doctor just out in the same location? Its seems more than a coincidence to me.

They ran into eachother in a bike shop. Ferrari wrote about it and called it an "encounter."

 

[joe_papp]

... Joe Papp signed in, and I'd bet that it really was him, but we don't really have any proof do we? Nature of the the internet...

It's me. Figure out some way to test, like calling me on my mobile or landline, and I'll confirm. Actually, I'll just put a post on my blog confirming that it's me:

http://joepapp.blogspot.com/2009/06/cyclingnews-forum.html

Done.

 

[ElChingon]

It's me. Figure out some way to test, like calling me on my mobile or landline, and I'll confirm. Actually, I'll just put a post on my blog confirming that it's me:

http://joepapp.blogspot.com/2009/06/cyclingnews-forum.html

Done.

But is that you really on the Blog

 

[ElChingon]

It's me.

I really enjoyed reading all of your South American tales when you were down there, great reading, doing any more writing? Wrapping those stories up would be a nice read.

 

[joe_papp]

I really enjoyed reading all of your South American tales when you were down there, great reading, doing any more writing? Wrapping those stories up would be a nice read.

To the previous poster: Haha, yes, it's me on the blog. Click on the graffiti link, you'll see my work number, call it, I'll answer, it's really me, haha. But don't call right now, I have to run over to wholefoods for a sec.

Chingon, thanks ... I appreciate the positive feedback and I'm glad you enjoyed the diaries. I wish I'd not screwed up and was still writing them. But yes, at some point I'll sum it all up. I'm going back to Italy for the first time in three years next month...let's see if I'm detained on arrival...that would make for a helluva diary.

As for writing now, it's fairly confined to the writing I have to do in my MBA program!

 

[Anonymous]

It appears that Ferrari recalls the meeting much the same as Greg did. He talks about the meeting, how he dismissed the SRM, and of course takes a shot at Greg for getting fat.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/features/diaries/ferrari.php?id=ferrari0410#20

We introduced ourselves and he did show me an SRM power meter mounted on his bike. I objected that I still preferred to rely on heart rate for the training programs of my athletes, essentially because the latter allowed the evaluation of the so-called 'carico interno' (internal loading) of work that they were subjected to.

In fact, watt measuring gives a rather absolute evaluation, not considering the fluctuations in condition of the athlete: the same load of 400 watts may change 'meaning' from day to day, according to status of fatigue in the rider.

Today, more than 10 years later, I still tend to evaluate with much prudence all the numbers we get from computers, always integrating them with the feelings and the instinct of the athlete.

Lemond said "He had no concept of it." which was his way of implying that Dr Ferrari had no real knowledge of sports psychology, a poor grasp of training methods and therefore his only possible function would have to be as a master of doping options.

If that's not what he meant someone tell me.

We now know from the poster that went to med school with Ferrari that he did work power readings and had a full knowledge of them, and also from his lips that he preferred heart rate monitoring over power numbers in training.

Now, how does that make Greg look?

 

[slcbiker]

Thanks Joe.
Not trying to accuse you of anything. Just trying to make a point that almost everyone else on this forum(including me) is using a cover name.

--Steve

 

[Eva Maria]

We now know from the poster that went to med school with Ferrari that he did work power readings and had a full knowledge of them, and also from his lips that he preferred heart rate monitoring over power numbers in training.

Now, how does that make Greg look?

Do you believe everything that somebody writes on a internet message board?

 

[Eva Maria]

Still am I the only one who questions why they ran into each other in the first place? Seems they are of different nationalities, Greg a retired pro racer out testing a new power meeter, Ferrari young researcher/doctor just out in the same location? Its seems more than a coincidence to me.

Ferrari was in SD with Tony Rominger and a few others for a winter training camp. The powermeter wasn't new, riders had been using them for over 5 years by then. Greg was one of the early adopters.

 

[davestoller]

Crap crap and more crap

Other then being a pretense of a forum with all the same trolls who ruined cyclingforums and then dailuypelotonforums, this thread besides being the same three people posting under twenty names decaling the following things:

1. I love Greg Lemond and everything he says is true.

2. I hate Lance Armstrong and he is a bad person and a cheat

3. DOnt buy Trek bikes

4. I hate Lance

5. Greg is my hero

blah blah blah

None of this thread is interesting and it has all been stated before elsewhere.
Did cyclingnews really want this or did they plan it?

 

[Returnofthewolf]

Do you believe everything that somebody writes on a internet message board?

Oh come on man. In this little corner of the world,our niche, lets just assume we are who we say we are.

Sincerely Yours,
-John Tesh

 

[Anonymous]

TRDean and Jackhammer111 just go start a thread where you two can enjoy each other's company, the thread will be in the open so anyone who wants to read it can. Your personal issues are not the title of this thread so go away.

Mods, can you do the threat/ban warning to these two?

to ALL the readers.

I tried to address TRDean in private. He wouldn't have it. He slammed me for sending it in prviate and then posted it to you all that i sent the message in private.

i think going private was the right thing. he didn't. he got it his way and i answered his question...in public as HE wanted.

I even believe i apologized to the readers for doing what he wanted, which was to answer his question in plublic.

I, as much as anybody, want this stuff to stop.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you believe everything that somebody writes on a internet message board?

The 47-year-old recalled meeting Ferrari in 1994. "I had an SRM meter and he looked down at me and said, 'What is that?' I said, 'It's a watt-measuring device'. He said, 'What do you need that for?' I said, 'So I can see if I'm progressing, when I should be recovering and when I should train again'... He had no concept of it.

The poster was Lo Scallatore. Here is what he says.

Now I don't want to defend Dr. Ferrari, but I knew him while I was a medical student in Bologna, Italy during the late 80' and 90's. He was also one of the first Italians to race triathlons at that time. I also had the opportunity for him perform Conconi tests on myself and the other members of my team numerous times during that period. I remember seeing him in the fall of '91 and discussing wattage based training methods. While I was a medical student, I had the type of conversation with him that he is referring to. Only it was in 1991. In fact, the office based Conconi tests were performed on a stationary cycle that read watts. He was obsessed with watt/kg numbers. Lemond makes some interesting points when he discusses doping, but this statement is flat out wrong. Unfortunately, there are very few people who can call him him out on this type of stuff. Now it makes me wonder about the other stuff spews.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That's a he said/she said problem. You're left to believe as you want.

The only issue I'm having a hard time understanding from those who say Greg doped, or Greg isn't fully honest, etc. is that it's not really that relevant. To me we're discussing ideas here.

- Is doping a serious problem in the sport? I sure think it is, both in reality, and in perception.

- Are the governing bodies, and the riders, doing enough to stop it? I think not.

- Could more be done, without radical changes? Yes, I think they could.

Somehow the argument is made that if Greg can be shown to not be telling the truth that therefore there isn't a doping problem in the sport, or Lance never doped?

Greg, and Lance, are just two names in this mess, two very visible names. But I guess I just don't understand people that look at those questions I asked, and honestly answer the opposite of what I see.

 

[BroDeal]

I, as much as anybody, want this stuff to stop.

Yeah, you sure want it to stop. That's why you made the post below to the movie thread right after making this one. Looks more like you intend to expand the number of people you have problems with.

well, well... i guess i've found where the children have gone to play.
have fun boys and girls.

don't get hurt, and don't get anything on you when you get together for your circle jerk.

 

[BigBoat]

While I'll admit not having the mods step in and censor the forum is great... Its divulged into some pointless references that keeps people (like me) away from wanting to attempt real discussions.

I like Lemond and I think he was clean. In the 1980s as Donotti (Sandro did I spell donatti right anyone??) pointed out epo at the top level had not really got going. It was indeed still possible to beat doped riders because all dopers really had then was corticoids, HGH and stimulants which didnt directly increase power.

Lemond is trying here to point out (along with Donatti and some others) that drugs are far bigger than governing bodies whether sporting bodies or UN sponsored anti- drug organizations claim. Its a really sad battle that they cannot possibly win. All the legal lawsuits are far more difficult to overcome than it would be to just accept the fact that all the top riders are jacked through the roof and all you can do is laugh at them for being lab rats and move on. Some of the stats they have (like on the coke trade) is incredibly insightful though, and its amazing that their are actually people keeping track of just how much cocaine we have in the world.

I honestly wish all riders were on SRM equiped bikes controlled by the bodies like ASO, and performance values could be compared from week to week to truly see the power of the riders and see the difference blood "refills" make and then try to pinpoint exactly when people start doping or have to stop doping. This wont happen though and I think it has not only to do with corruption but lack of insight and intelligence amongst the majority of fans and the media. The average "Livestrong" supporter just isnt very bright. LOL