Stage 16: Ponte Di Legno-Val Martello/Martelltal (139 km)

[ZolaNS]

Bad organisation, but I think that Nairo would make 2+ minute gap if the group of leaders was together before the final climb. He is the strongest, and he will prove that on next stages. I think the battle for maglia rosa is 99% finished, Quintana and his teammates are very strong.
I would like to see Valverde's reaction while watching the final climb today.

 

[Volderke]

It wasn't necessarily right... it just wasn't WRONG.

Look, you play to the whistle. This is the same for any sport. As long as the race hasn't been officially neutralized, assume you are racing. Sort out the ramifications later, once there has been some cessation of proceedings. The example earlier was a defender stopping with his hand in the air calling the offside as the attacker shoots and scores. In that situation it doesn't matter whether the attacker was actually offside or not, the defender is still the fool for not playing to the whistle.

To go back to the football analogy, the referee misses the offside (Nairo), the referee misses the handball (Maradona). But one of them is blatant cheating (deliberate handball), the other is being caught on the wrong side of the rules (being in an offside position). In both situations the referee is the culprit, but while forwards who handle the ball into the goal are vilified, in 99% of situations a forward who scores from an offside position is not vilified, because the intent was not to cheat, they just took advantage of a situation of the officials' making.

I'm not pleased with the situation, but I don't think Nairo is a villain here (although claiming not to have known the group was so small until the base of the descent is stupid stupid stupid, up there with Alberto's claiming he didn't know Schleck had slipped his chain. Alberto didn't need to lie to justify his entirely reasonable actions four years ago, and Nairo doesn't need to lie to justify his actions today, because the situation was not of his own making, and doing so only makes him look more disingenuous than people already think he is).

If the race was neutralized, the onus is on the race directors to communicate that to the riders. People like Pozzovivo, who lost out, say they heard nothing to that effect, so how can you blame Nairito for thinking it wasn't? If it WAS neutralized, then the race organizers shouldn't have let Nairo's group continue on their merry way and should have backed them into the maglia rosa group. Because they didn't, and nobody in the Quintana group thought the race was neutralized, there is absolutely no reason for them to back off.

good good post. I am actually also in doubt and can imagine the anger by some riders. Still, the ride by Quintana was superb. That's the positive I want to remember. The others just weren't good enough.

The organizers really have a lot to evaluate: crashes all over, motorcycles crashing, the guy with the flag in coma, now this...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I would like to see Valverde's reaction while watching the final climb today.

100% relief. "Thank God I got Eusebio to stick him down for the Giro, I could never have persuaded him to domestique for me at the Tour!

 

[Orbit501]

It wasn't necessarily right... it just wasn't WRONG.

Look, you play to the whistle. This is the same for any sport. As long as the race hasn't been officially neutralized, assume you are racing. Sort out the ramifications later, once there has been some cessation of proceedings. The example earlier was a defender stopping with his hand in the air calling the offside as the attacker shoots and scores. In that situation it doesn't matter whether the attacker was actually offside or not, the defender is still the fool for not playing to the whistle.

To go back to the football analogy, the referee misses the offside (Nairo), the referee misses the handball (Maradona). But one of them is blatant cheating (deliberate handball), the other is being caught on the wrong side of the rules (being in an offside position). In both situations the referee is the culprit, but while forwards who handle the ball into the goal are vilified, in 99% of situations a forward who scores from an offside position is not vilified, because the intent was not to cheat, they just took advantage of a situation of the officials' making.

I'm not pleased with the situation, but I don't think Nairo is a villain here (although claiming not to have known the group was so small until the base of the descent is stupid stupid stupid, up there with Alberto's claiming he didn't know Schleck had slipped his chain. Alberto didn't need to lie to justify his entirely reasonable actions four years ago, and Nairo doesn't need to lie to justify his actions today, because the situation was not of his own making, and doing so only makes him look more disingenuous than people already think he is).

If the race was neutralized, the onus is on the race directors to communicate that to the riders. People like Pozzovivo, who lost out, say they heard nothing to that effect, so how can you blame Nairito for thinking it wasn't? If it WAS neutralized, then the race organizers shouldn't have let Nairo's group continue on their merry way and should have backed them into the maglia rosa group. Because they didn't, and nobody in the Quintana group thought the race was neutralized, there is absolutely no reason for them to back off.

Excellent post. Perfectly summed up.

And besides, any riders, DS's, and fans complaining about today would do well to focus on the time loses and gains on the ascent of Val Martello , more than the descent of the Stelvio.

And for the record, I don't have any particular favourite rider/s, just a fan of great racing.

 

[rhubroma]

The race organization should have just stayed out of it, let the pros go down the damn descent and sort it out for themselves.

Modern safety! I mean it wasn't as if there was snow on the road.

 

[Carols]

In the end, I sincerely hope Quintana takes at least 30s-1 minute more time to remove any doubt. Because what he did today on Val Martello was enormous.

Indeed! I'm 63 years old and that was one of the most epic rides of the thousands of races I've seen; tickling top 10 at least. But it's gotten all messed up in the 'confusion' and not being regarded as the stellar performance it was because of all the polemic. Wish I had been able to enjoy it more!!! Even if one replays it you have to do it muted as the commentators are blathering on about the polemic instead of the action.

The setting was epic, Nairo was epic and so was Ryder. Dammit it Ryder just refused to go away!!!!

EDIT: wow I'm reading some other info, it just gets worse....this stage has a shadow on it. What a shame Not the riders fault, the organization for not being clear or enforcing!

 

[ILovecycling]

Lets just discuss results and riders bravery,performances etc no?Im glad this terrific stage has so many posts tho,that number is unbelievable

I think we are clear that even without that incident Quintana would gain slightly over 2 minutes on first of MR group Keldermerckx and about 2.45 on Rigo,so he would have been in lead by 3 seconds.I hope and believe he will prove that this stage was only a ride into great form.IMO his days on Zoncolan and Grappa will be from another planet,nobody will ever doubt

Is there a photo of Quintana in maglia rosa?
I need one of for my new avatar (I have this already from last vuelta and he deserves it!) before late june when The Great One has its spot reserved

Also the amount of Aru avatar is hillarious nowadays,something like august 2012 with vino

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I think it was all pretty clear no?

Quintana took 2 minutes in the decent. NOT by attacking, ONLY by going down NORMALLY.
Uran & Co CHOOSE to go down like a snail. The motorbike in front of them did NOT block them to go faster. THEIR choice. Heck, I could have followed any of those guys going down (not up though!)

(I know I am using a lot of capital letters )

So the organization said they had to keep position. Well, they did! The organization never said something about your own decision of letting riders in front of you go out of sight! In reference to formula 1: If you have a safety car in front of you, and you follow it... Is it your fault that the car behind you is not following you anymore? Uran should ALWAYS have followed Quintana. What did they expect? To drink a coffee halfway for 5 minutes and think that the organization would simply stop Quintana in the valley for the same amount of time until the 'favorites' finished their coffee?

I realize it was confusing and in the heat of the battle... but still, some teams took SOOO much for granted. They lost the focus on the race completely it seemed. And I feel they were poked already by all the twitter thoughts of e.g. Patrick Lefevere. They were in a mental state of mind, thinking that the stage would be canceled somewhere in the middle? All questions... And probably the reason the protest is not too loud (because the teams have to take part of the blame it seems).

In the end, I sincerely hope Quintana takes at least 30s-1 minute more time to remove any doubt. Because what he did today on Val Martello was enormous.

very good post

 

[Piz Buin]

Is there a photo of Quintana in maglia rosa?
I need one of for my new avatar (I have this already from last vuelta and he deserves it!) before late june when The Great One has its spot reserved

Also the amount of Aru avatar is hillarious nowadays,something like august 2012 with vino

I like this one

https://s3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/...orts/Eurosport/1245664-26904114-2560-1440.jpg

 

[ILovecycling]

I would like to point out something about Rigo and MR group.It was really pathetic (and typical for this age) that all favourites let ride their domesiques - there were great domestiques tho, sp they were lucky.To me it was like they gave up on the climb,they knew they won't catch him and that he is so strong.
So I like what happened cuz nobody from that group had cojones except Kelderman and that 4 minutes is a bit bit punishment for them.

Still there is zoncolan,anything can happen there.Movistar has to be careful and Don Nairo tranquilo,which is no problem of course

 

[ILovecycling]

I like this one

https://s3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/...orts/Eurosport/1245664-26904114-2560-1440.jpg

Thanks,he is so happy there,and its funny too cuz this shirt is like 2 sizes bigger than his usual

 

[Knutsen]

he does seem to be quite the hardman.

The face of a hardman:

 

[seldon71]

Right now re-watching the complete stage in RaiSport-website.

Some notifications :

- The one rider who SERIOUSLY attacks in downhill is Alexis Vuillermoz. Dupont & Pantano were already way ahead at the summit. (and so was Chalapud who couldn't hang with them in descent). Vuillermoz summited roughly a minute behind these riders (and some 15 seconds ahead of the main bunch). 9 minutes later he catches & passes Dupont, Pantano, Chalapud and has made an extra minute of advantage to so-called "attackers" of Quintana-Rolland group.

- At this same point, the all-important split of "peloton" has "just" happened and the splinter group is catching RABOTTINI (who was 20-30 seconds ahead at summit). Tv broadcast also catches the moment when Izaquirre (followed tight by Nairito) passes Italian rider. This is at 2:28:30 moment of the broadcast. At that point there is 7 guys riding away - I don't know yet who is the one who fails to stay with Izaquirre-Quintana-Rolland-Sicard-Hesjedal-Rabottini sextet in lower slopes... Edit: most probably Alexandre Geniez who is caught at that point after starting the descent together with Vuillermoz.

- The main bunch is some 35-40 seconds behind at that point. Uran hits the stopwatchable hairpin exactly 50 seconds behind Izaquirre (who passes Rabottini at that point). You can easily see how Izaquirre is pressing a fast descent and Uran rolls down casually...

- So no wonder Pozzovivo ain't complaining as the biggest culprit of attacking downhill (clearly fastest descent) is his teammate Vuillermoz.

 

[damian13ster]

It is in no way clear that he would take 2 minutes on them on the final climb if there is entire group starting at the bottom of it. I will say more. There is no way in hell that would happen. He took 2 minutes there on todays stage because riders were confused, didnt know what was going on and most likely felt cheated out of a chance for a GC win. Motivation drops a lot. Do you think that if Quintana attacked they wouldnt follow instead of just letting domestiques drive them? Hesjedal lost just 8 seconds on that climb. Rolland lost just slightly over a minute. There is no way that Pozzovivo, Kelderman, Aru and Majka are 2 minutes worse than Hesjedal. The pace would be different and entire stage scenario would be different.

And yes, if the striker in football knows he is offside and still scores then it is cheating in a sense since this was his conscious choice to take advantage of human error by referee.

Volderke: If he takes just 30seconds-1min then it proves only that he didnt deserve to win. Not sure if I remember correctly but I think he had more losses to podium spot than that, let alone to race leader.

And I am not sure what you guys mean about racing until neutralization is official. Race radio recording shows that it is official. It was clearly stated not to attack and to stay in the same group, official twitter account of giro (although I know DS dont base decision off of it) also made it official before correction. So the whistle was blown, play was stopped. Some just didnt listen and for some reason others are punished for it, whether its because of sudden change of mind of organizers or poor communication between race director and race radio

 

[SafeBet]

I would like to point out something about Rigo and MR group.It was really pathetic (and typical for this age) that all favourites let ride their domesiques - there were great domestiques tho, sp they were lucky.To me it was like they gave up on the climb,they knew they won't catch him and that he is so strong.
So I like what happened cuz nobody from that group had cojones except Kelderman and that 4 minutes is a bit bit punishment for them.

I think you're being too harsh on most of those riders.
In that group there were plenty of very young men, unproven at this level, surely at their first ever experience in such conditions. Most were at their limit too. Comparing their performance to Nairo's one is unfair, we've just witnessed one of the most epic ride in modern cycling.

If I have to blame one, and I did during the stage, it's Rigo. But after the first attack from Majka it was clear why he wasn't taking responsability.

I say bravo to all of them today. No exceptions.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And I am not sure what you guys mean about racing until neutralization is official. Race radio recording shows that it is official. It was clearly stated not to attack and to stay in the same group, official twitter account of giro (although I know DS dont base decision off of it) also made it official before correction. So the whistle was blown, play was stopped. Some just didnt listen and for some reason others are punished for it, whether its because of sudden change of mind of organizers or poor communication between race director and race radio

So Pozzovivo, who lost out and said he didn't know anything about neutralization, is a liar?

If people were told to stay in their group, then coming to a halt while others continue is leaving the group just the same as attacking it. The race organization didn't say "stop". They said "hold fire".

 

[SafeBet]

Do you think that if Quintana attacked they wouldnt follow instead of just letting domestiques drive them? Hesjedal lost just 8 seconds on that climb. Rolland lost just slightly over a minute. There is no way that Pozzovivo, Kelderman, Aru and Majka are 2 minutes worse than Hesjedal. The pace would be different and entire stage scenario would be different.

I concur with this.
But I don't wanna take anything away from Nairo. That's why I'm so sorry about the organization messing it up.

 

[seldon71]

Based on possibly mistaken gaps at 40,5 km to go (for Cataldo) the time differences in downhill have been roughly as follows (compared to leader Cataldo)

Vuillermoz -51
Dupont +4
Pantano -24
Chalapud unclear, in-between chase groups, approx. +1 min. 10 s
Rabottini +40
Rolland, Quintana, Hesjedal, Sicard, Izaquirre +5
Group Uran + 2 min 5 s

Vuillermoz by far the fastest (and Pantano pulled by him).
Cataldo let to go, Quintana's group only matching the speed of leader on-the-road.
The rest of GC contenders having a nap.

 

[seldon71]

So Pozzovivo, who lost out and said he didn't know anything about neutralization, is a liar?

Not a liar, but "no wonder Pozzovivo ain't complaining as the biggest culprit of attacking downhill (clearly fastest descent) is his teammate Vuillermoz."

 

[Inquitus]

This is going to take away from Quintana, he's benefited from the results of some organiser confusion and likely knew what he was doing was dubious at best. It's far worse than the chaingate stuff from a few years back, and his win will always be overshadowed by this controversy.

 

[ILovecycling]

I think you're being too harsh on most of those riders.
In that group there were plenty of very young men, unproven at this level, surely at their first ever experience in such conditions. Most were at their limit too. Comparing their performance to Nairo's one is unfair, we've just witnessed one of the most epic ride in modern cycling.

If I have to blame one, and I did during the stage, it's Rigo. But after the first attack from Majka it was clear why he wasn't taking responsability.

I say bravo to all of them today. No exceptions.

If its the case of bolded one,then of course Im wrong.And its the most probable reason!I think Majka and Aru should have tried something - And Im not saying they should attack like mad,but just ride steady pace (e.g Rigo+Majka+Pozzo+Aru) to hold that Nairo gap.
And I dont think it was That great effort from Nairo (like once in a year or something)as he is not 100%, I think he can do even better
Of course bravo to all who finished the stage!

 

[damian13ster]

So Pozzovivo, who lost out and said he didn't know anything about neutralization, is a liar?

If people were told to stay in their group, then coming to a halt while others continue is leaving the group just the same as attacking it. The race organization didn't say "stop". They said "hold fire".

Word of 3/4 of the peleton> word of Pozzovivo for me.
I am not saying he is a liar. Not all radios were working on the summit though so maybe he said he didnt know at that point but stopped because everybody else did? You never know. Facts are that multiple teams protested the results on this stage so it is obvious they feel entire situation is unfair.
If entire group minus 3-4 riders stop, it means the 3-4 riders left the group not the other way around

 

[Rajna31]

So Pozzovivo, who lost out and said he didn't know anything about neutralization, is a liar?

If people were told to stay in their group, then coming to a halt while others continue is leaving the group just the same.

I'm not sure what happened with Pozzovivo, but as the case of Hesjedal clearly demonstrates, communication was not ideal between the riders and DSes, and the confusing statements of various teams also show that different DSes interpreted the message differently. Either of those could happen to AG2R.

Or neither, but I find it hard to believe that half of the teams are lying deliberately (including on of the 'winners', Garmin). It's more likely that the teams that are now speaking about no neutralisation whatsoever either didn't hear the message, interpreted it differently or their communication with the riders were far from ideal, or they tried something and waited for the organizers to call it off (this is very unlikely IMO, I'm leaning towards the communication issues).

 

[ILovecycling]

This is going to take away from Quintana, he's benefited from the results of some organiser confusion and likely knew what he was doing was dubious at best. It's far worse than the chaingate stuff from a few years back, and his win will always be overshadowed by this controversy.

wait for MTT
He will make Nibali's last year mtt look like the one from overhyped neo-pro (Afrank quote)

 

[damian13ster]

I think the bottom line here is that stage results dont reflect actual strength of riders.

If Quintana took a minute here (possible although fairly doubtful since he wouldnt attack farther than 5 kilometres from the finish and Hesjedal still held on to him) he would still have over 1.5 minute loss to a leader which in no way guarantees a win with just 3 hard stages left and would surely make for some fireworks.

And seriously, stop with fanboyism here and try to look at things objectively.