Steakgate latest: Contador positive for Clenbuterol in four different tests

[hrotha]

While I agree with much of what you've said, the story about the receipt has been consistent since the beginning. There's been no change.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

to a flawed test. once again there IS an allowable amount of clen in meat. if the test itself is flawed how can you punish him? i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. i dont think it's up to him to prove anything. i think it's up to the labs and the wada to prove that contamination can't result in false positives. maybe their testing methods need another round of peer review

How is the test flawed?

If he has any hope of NOT getting the full 2-years for the Clen positive, it is up to him to prove where it came from, it was unintentional and he had gained no benefit. I think this is why they've given all of these silly explanations.

That is part of WADA code. That's the rule they must work with.

I am not saying it is the right way to build the rule, just that the rule is what it is.

 

[ChrisE]

While I agree with much of what you've said, the story about the receipt has been consistent since the beginning. There's been no change.

I'm lazy and not gonna dig CN past stories, but I seem to recall he said it in one story that he had the receipt, then the next story he said he gave it to Astana. If my memory is wrong I stand corrected. Regardless, there was no follow up with Astana.

Yes, a guy grabs some meat hundreds of miles away because the chef says French meat sux, stores it and drives to France, and carries the receipt to France, the chef is privy enough to give it to Astana accounting guy, etc. But he is quoted in a story months ago about buying beef in Pau during this same time period. This sucky French meat, of course. Ooops.

AC is the only one that eats this imported clen laced meat, so the cost of this meat should have been small since it was just for one person. Decent size T-bone in my neck of the woods costs ten bucks. Yeah, gotta keep up with that receipt. And then he is positive one day after a test showing plastic in his blood.

Are you kidding me? If AC gets off it will be a travesty of the highest proportions.

I personally don't think the receipt will appear either because it doesn't exist or Astana will say "what receipt". Of course, I could be wrong but even if it does exist it doesn't change the fact that the receipt is proof of nothing in his defense IMO.

Edit:

Here is what I was looking for:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contadors-brother-refutes-transfusion-claims

AC's press mouthpiece Vidarte says they have the receipt, but Olalla the chef says he gave it to Astana. Olalla apparently works for Astana. So, where's the receipt, or beef, or something? Whose on first? Olalla has loads of incentive to go along with the receipt story, vs coming clean. He has other options than working for Astana per the story. Apparently he is pretty well used, and knows not to spit in the Spanish soup by sacrificing Astana.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

to a flawed test. once again there IS an allowable amount of clen in meat. if the test itself is flawed how can you punish him? i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. i dont think it's up to him to prove anything. i think it's up to the labs and the wada to prove that contamination can't result in false positives. maybe their testing methods need another round of peer review

The allowable limit of clen, depending on your geo locale, would not and could not cause a doping positive. Do some research...

I think we can easily recognize that the reason the plastics test info surfaced is to show the coincidence of the clen appearing with the spike in dehp.

Linking the two, implying the use of transfusion as source of clen, undermines the argument of intent and non-benefit, thus paving the path for the full 2 year ban.

Look, the guy is toast. Charred pumpernickel.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Just a POST about Alberto Contador. He has doped. Really. Like what is the big deal. He is not the first and he will not be the last. It is quite incredulous how many post's are submitted about. Lance Armstrong. Floyd Landis and Alberto Contador. They have doped so what. They have all doped. That is all any one needs to Know. Arnold Swarchenegger took HGH Steroid's ect ect. Like so what .Have people got nothing else to do only sit in front of A PC. POSTING 1000'S of irrelevant comments about guy's that cleary do no give a Monkey's about what they are putting into their bodies. I mean come on like it must be some sort of an addiction posting 1000's of post's in a cyber world with imaginary friend's. Like it is cleary unhealty. I am sorry but that is the sad truth about Forums in general. I mean none of these pro cyclist give a monkey's about any of You people. They are not God's either for that matter. There is one member I see on here with 7000 odd post's. That is not normal. Have you people got nothing better else to do with Your Lives. Because as Far as I am concerned I really could not give a hoot whether any one dopes or not. Get a life. And Yes I see Just above My post ah Colm Murphy. Well I cannot see His post because He is on My ignore list. And for good reason. I cannot tolerate people like himself who think that they are experts in every field known to man. When they cleary don't have a clue what they are talking about. It is laughable.

 

[Elagabalus]

I mean none of these pro cyclist give a monkey's about any of You people.

Oh stop it, Mr. Cavendish! We know our comments mean more to you than that! Much more ...

 

[minessa]

He DOESN'T DISPUTE THE POSITIVE TEST.

There is no doubt. The rider agrees it was positive. Everyone agrees. There was a positive test.

Contador is simply stating it didnt' result from doping, but rather contaminated meat.


That's fine. It may even be true. But it doesn't matter, because once you accept that excuse, then "accidentally" doping becomes okay. All manner of excuses for positives will be made, and Contador getting off will be justification.

"Well yeah, I tested positive for elephant steroids... but someone injected me in my sleep. You let Contador off because he ate contaminated meat, you have to let me off too."

All of this doesn't matter. All that matters is that he tested positive and is not disputing the test at all. He HAS to be punished, or else the entire testing program is invalidated and EVERYONE will have an excuse for their test... and get off because of the precedent.

Interview with Martial Saugy, head of the anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/weitere/Blutpass-von-Contador-ist-chaotisch/story/26974613 «Von Beginn an diskutierte die UCI das Problem mit der Wada, gerade auch, um klarzumachen, dass sie nichts verdecken wolle. Die Annahme, die UCI verberge irgendetwas, ist falsch. Man muss eines sehen: Im Fall von Contador handelt es sich bislang nicht um einen positiven Fall, sondern erst um ein von der Norm abweichendes Ergebnis. Die B-Probe wurde Anfang September geöffnet. Und weil der Fall so komplex ist, informierte die UCI nicht sofort – das Vorgehen diskutierte sie mit der Wada.» "From the outset, the UCI discussed the problem with the WADA, especially, to make it clear that they wanted to hide anything. The assumption that the UCI hide anything is wrong. You have to see one thing: in the case of Contador is now not a positiv case, but only a deviant result. And because the case is so complex, the UCI informed not immediately - they discussed the approach with WADA."

 

[HoustonHammer]

His point is how do you prove the bolded? Having a receipt from a shop in Spain means nothing. Somebody coming up with some tainted meat from that same shop, 3 months after the fact, means nothing. The only way IMO would be for him to have a sample of the exact meat he ate, with proof, and have it tested positive for clen. That is not gonna happen, so he's got to be suspended.

I'm not going to pretend to be the scientist here. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that he could offer enough proof to get a penalty reduction, but I haven't seen any information about things like a) the prevalence of Clen in meat sold in markets in Europe b) what level "Y" in the meat is required to get level "X" in the urine, and c) what's the prevalence of Clen in the urine of a randomly sampled dudes on the street in Pau or Madrid. I'm super doubtful that facts like that would help the guy, but you don't know until you see them.

Anyway, this whole thing doesn't pass the smell test. As some have said, it makes zero sense that he would load up on steak at that time, brought from Spain from an associate. To many random things going on here.

This I totally agree with. The story is that the meat was bought in Spain by AC's pal Jose Luis Lopez Cerron. That seems plausible given the Spanish view of French food. Then they say that Lopez Cerron, a well known organizer of a major race (Vuelta a Castilla y Leon) turned the meat over with the receipt, apparently for reimbursement, to the team chef. That's really odd; it's like taking some steaks over to your friend's barbecue and asking him to pay for them. Hard to imagine anyone, much less a prominent Spaniard doing that. It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I am not sure if the relative strength or weakness of his excuse really matters as it is the Spanish Fed. which decides his punishment, isn't it? They will give him 3 months, and then it is up to, that's right, the UCI to either accept or appeal that sentence and I believe we already know where they stand. So I'd bet the rent he doesn't miss anymore than the off season. If Kayle can be lining up sponsors while he is suspended then 3 months off certainly won't hurt Clentador any.

 

[hrotha]

I am not sure if the relative strength or weakness of his excuse really matters as it is the Spanish Fed. which decides his punishment, isn't it? They will give him 3 months, and then it is up to, that's right, the UCI to either accept or appeal that sentence and I believe we already know where they stand. So I'd bet the rent he doesn't miss anymore than the off season. If Kayle can be lining up sponsors while he is suspended then 3 months off certainly won't hurt Clentador any.

Can't the WADA take it to the CAS or something if they're not satisfied with the decision?

 

[ChrisE]

I'm not going to pretend to be the scientist here. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that he could offer enough proof to get a penalty reduction, but I haven't seen any information about things like a) the prevalence of Clen in meat sold in markets in Europe b) what level "Y" in the meat is required to get level "X" in the urine, and c) what's the prevalence of Clen in the urine of a randomly sampled dudes on the street in Pau or Madrid. I'm super doubtful that facts like that would help the guy, but you don't know until you see them.
.

Fair enough, but then compare that typical cross-section of society that has clen in their system to the amount of AAFs for this stuff thoughout the year, by guys with plastic molecules in their blood from a test the day earlier.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Can't the WADA take it to the CAS or something if they're not satisfied with the decision?

They can, but who knows if they feel like butting heads with Spanish Fed. and UCI over it?

 

[hrotha]

They can, but who knows if they feel like butting heads with Spanish Fed. and UCI over it?

If they don't, there's no hope.

 

[mycenos]

I'm not going to pretend to be the scientist here. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that he could offer enough proof to get a penalty reduction, but I haven't seen any information about things like a) the prevalence of Clen in meat sold in markets in Europe b) what level "Y" in the meat is required to get level "X" in the urine, and c) what's the prevalence of Clen in the urine of a randomly sampled dudes on the street in Pau or Madrid. I'm super doubtful that facts like that would help the guy, but you don't know until you see them.

Well, I can help you out with a). According to this article, in 2008 in Europe, 45,000 samples of meat were tested for clenbuterol. How many were positive? 20.

 

[WinterRider]

I'm not going to pretend to be the scientist here. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that he could offer enough proof to get a penalty reduction, but I haven't seen any information about things like a) the prevalence of Clen in meat sold in markets in Europe b) what level "Y" in the meat is required to get level "X" in the urine, and c) what's the prevalence of Clen in the urine of a randomly sampled dudes on the street in Pau or Madrid. I'm super doubtful that facts like that would help the guy, but you don't know until you see them.

Here's the important piece of science for you:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1382130/
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9213863

To summarize, in 113 cases of clenbuterol poisoning, the average detected level was 50 nanagrams/ml, which is 1000 times higher that what was detected in Contador (50 picograms/ml), however these cases were primarily from eating the livers of treated cows, where the clenbuterol can accumulate over the life of the cow. The concusion of these studies was that Clenbuterol use should be restricted from use in livestock with the possible exception of small therapeutic doses (it is also a medication for breathing disorders).

Given that there were 113 hospitalizations required, it seems unlikely that any spanish farming are still pumping their cows full of clen for adding muscle mass, so the only reasonable source would be a cow that had clen for therapeutic purposes. Logically, you wouldn't treat a cow with clen if it was being slaughtered right away (unless there is a sympathetic spanish farmer out there who treats his cows asthma attacks in the slaughter house), so it was likely a small dose, well before death, that would have been filtered out by the liver. So unless Contador ate the cow's liver (which he didn't), his story is pretty flimsy.

My guess is when he got busted due to blood doping, he started looking online for some explanation, and found the same studies I did, and concocted some story about spanish beef. Too bad he can't tell the difference between a tenderloin and a liver.

 

[HoustonHammer]

Interview with Martial Saugy, head of the anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/weitere/Blutpass-von-Contador-ist-chaotisch/story/26974613 «Von Beginn an diskutierte die UCI das Problem mit der Wada, gerade auch, um klarzumachen, dass sie nichts verdecken wolle. Die Annahme, die UCI verberge irgendetwas, ist falsch. Man muss eines sehen: Im Fall von Contador handelt es sich bislang nicht um einen positiven Fall, sondern erst um ein von der Norm abweichendes Ergebnis. Die B-Probe wurde Anfang September geöffnet. Und weil der Fall so komplex ist, informierte die UCI nicht sofort – das Vorgehen diskutierte sie mit der Wada.» "From the outset, the UCI discussed the problem with the WADA, especially, to make it clear that they wanted to hide anything. The assumption that the UCI hide anything is wrong. You have to see one thing: in the case of Contador is now not a positiv case, but only a deviant result. And because the case is so complex, the UCI informed not immediately - they discussed the approach with WADA."

This is pretty interesting. If you look at the code, it defines two types of lab findings: Adverse Analytical Finding and Atypical Finding. The Adverse Analytical Finding is a clear-cut case of something being there that ought not to be; this is OK if the athlete has a TUE for the substance in question, but is otherwise a problem. The Atypical Finding is when something odd is found, but they lab feels that further investigation is required to rule out the possibility of an endogenous source. If the follow-up determines that the cause can’t be explained by an endogenous source, then the Atypical Finding becomes an Adverse Analytical Finding and the sanction process begins.

What the lab head seems to be saying is that they’re classifying the Contador result as an Atypical Finding right now. Which makes sense in the context of their comments about the ‘need for further investigation’. What doesn’t make sense is there is no way for Clen to be from an endogenous source, and so it shouldn’t be possible for a Clen positive to be anything other than an Adverse Analytical Finding.

More fancy footwork from UCI, I guess.

 

[roundabout]

I am surprised that WADA is following along. Makes one wonder if they care enough to appeal any non-sanctions by RFEC.

 

[nicholaaaas]

How is the test flawed?

If he has any hope of NOT getting the full 2-years for the Clen positive, it is up to him to prove where it came from, it was unintentional and he had gained no benefit. I think this is why they've given all of these silly explanations.

That is part of WADA code. That's the rule they must work with.

I am not saying it is the right way to build the rule, just that the rule is what it is.

BECAUSE THERE ARE ALLOWED AMOUNTS OF CLEN IN LIVERSTOCK!!! how many times do I have to repeat myself. with that in mind; how can there not be a floor for the test when every meat eater will have SOME in their system at some/many/all point(s).

 

[nicholaaaas]

The allowable limit of clen, depending on your geo locale, would not and could not cause a doping positive. Do some research...

I think we can easily recognize that the reason the plastics test info surfaced is to show the coincidence of the clen appearing with the spike in dehp.

Linking the two, implying the use of transfusion as source of clen, undermines the argument of intent and non-benefit, thus paving the path for the full 2 year ban.

Look, the guy is toast. Charred pumpernickel.

show me a link that supports your argument. and linking it to a non-validated test then some implying isn't convincing enough for me

 

[nicholaaaas]

Here's the important piece of science for you:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1382130/
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9213863

To summarize, in 113 cases of clenbuterol poisoning, the average detected level was 50 nanagrams/ml, which is 1000 times higher that what was detected in Contador (50 picograms/ml), however these cases were primarily from eating the livers of treated cows, where the clenbuterol can accumulate over the life of the cow. The concusion of these studies was that Clenbuterol use should be restricted from use in livestock with the possible exception of small therapeutic doses (it is also a medication for breathing disorders).

Given that there were 113 hospitalizations required, it seems unlikely that any spanish farming are still pumping their cows full of clen for adding muscle mass, so the only reasonable source would be a cow that had clen for therapeutic purposes. Logically, you wouldn't treat a cow with clen if it was being slaughtered right away (unless there is a sympathetic spanish farmer out there who treats his cows asthma attacks in the slaughter house), so it was likely a small dose, well before death, that would have been filtered out by the liver. So unless Contador ate the cow's liver (which he didn't), his story is pretty flimsy.

My guess is when he got busted due to blood doping, he started looking online for some explanation, and found the same studies I did, and concocted some story about spanish beef. Too bad he can't tell the difference between a tenderloin and a liver.

i know in the states you are not allowed to process livestock that dies in the field so yes, a therapeutic dose near slaughter is not out of the question... and probably fairly likely

 

[Animal]

Ding!

Three post ment!

 

[kurtinsc]

This is pretty interesting. If you look at the code, it defines two types of lab findings: Adverse Analytical Finding and Atypical Finding. The Adverse Analytical Finding is a clear-cut case of something being there that ought not to be; this is OK if the athlete has a TUE for the substance in question, but is otherwise a problem. The Atypical Finding is when something odd is found, but they lab feels that further investigation is required to rule out the possibility of an endogenous source. If the follow-up determines that the cause can’t be explained by an endogenous source, then the Atypical Finding becomes an Adverse Analytical Finding and the sanction process begins.

What the lab head seems to be saying is that they’re classifying the Contador result as an Atypical Finding right now. Which makes sense in the context of their comments about the ‘need for further investigation’. What doesn’t make sense is there is no way for Clen to be from an endogenous source, and so it shouldn’t be possible for a Clen positive to be anything other than an Adverse Analytical Finding.

More fancy footwork from UCI, I guess.

What's even more interesting is the stories I read initially specifically said "Adverse Analytical Finding". Did the UCI wave their magic wand?

 

[Polyarmour]

to a flawed test. once again there IS an allowable amount of clen in meat. if the test itself is flawed how can you punish him? i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. i dont think it's up to him to prove anything. i think it's up to the labs and the wada to prove that contamination can't result in false positives. maybe their testing methods need another round of peer review

So don't suspend Contador, change the rules? I can't see it happening.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Yeah he has the "receipt" *cough*, I am allergic to bullsh*t!

 

[kurtinsc]

BECAUSE THERE ARE ALLOWED AMOUNTS OF CLEN IN LIVERSTOCK!!! how many times do I have to repeat myself. with that in mind; how can there not be a floor for the test when every meat eater will have SOME in their system at some/many/all point(s).

How doesn't matter.

There isn't a floor. People have been suspended for it before in a variety of sports. US swimmer Jessica Hardy was suspended for testing positive for it and missed the olympics. This isn't some new drug or new test or new guidelines. It's been around for a while and the testing standard hasn't ever been changed, despite several people (including Hardy) saying they were positive due to eating contaminated food or supplements.

You're trying to change the rules after the fact because someone you like got busted.