Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Netserk]

He already tried in the last Tour that strategy. On marie blanque he was dropped but he was on the wheel of Vingegaard trying to not get dropped, he did the same strategy on tourmalet and then he attacked in the last km and half of cambasque, he followed the wheel of Vingegaard on puy de dome and then he attacked again in the last km and half, on col du grand colombier he waited for the last km again.
Pogacar changed his way of racing against Vingegaard in the last Tour.

I'm not going to call that strategy "wheelsucking" because pogacar is not a wheelsucker, but he tried to following Vingegaard's wheel and then attack in the end.

 

[Peter von]

He already tried in the last Tour that strategy. On marie blanque he was dropped but he was on the wheel of Vingegaard trying to not get dropped, he did the same strategy on tourmalet and then he attacked in the last km and half of cambasque, he followed the wheel of Vingegaard on puy de dome and then he attacked again in the last km and half, on col du grand colombier he waited for the last km again.
Pogacar changed his way of racing against Vingegaard in the last Tour.

I'm not going to call that strategy "wheelsucking" because pogacar is not a wheelsucker, but he tried to following Vingegaard's wheel and then attack in the end.

He still attacked, I meant really committing to that strategy even more, don't even attack, let Jonas eat wind or slow down if they are isolated, don't do anything or have your team do anything to make the race harder unless it's absolutely necessary , don't even try to bring the break back so Pogi can snack a few bonus seconds. Really put the sucker in wheelsucker.

Pogi is by no means a wheel sucker

 

[Elos Anjos]

Please stop. I cannot deal anymore with the spin "Pog is a wheelsucker". It's a so vulgar and mediocre take that I just refuse to answer or allow myself to engage it.

 

[Extinction]

I'm not sure. I think in terms of top climbing speed at anaerobic threshold or above (i.e. 30 minutes or shorter efforts closer to VO2max) Pog more or less matches Vingo (as climbs at last years Tour showed). Pog has big bazooka wattage. It's recovery (esp. in a 3 week race) and longer climbs (multiple climbs), which make Vingo superior. It could be his body build (very light frame), which makes him better suited for repeated long efforts day in day out (less energy expended over the course of the race).

In fact, this was precisely my point. In the sense that Vingo can sustain his substantial wattage over a longer period of time, through week three, whereas they are pretty evenly matched in weeks one and two. But the attrition of the third week allows Vingo to display a superior physiology. To go back to my original position, it seems to me the reason for this is that when one is endowed with great explosiveness, one loses something in resistance, the longer one is required to generate similar watts as time draws on (week three). Pog has come up short twice in a row, which is not a large enough sample size to draw definitive conclusions, however, orient trends, yes. And it seems to me, as great a cyclist as Pog is, he doesn't have a response to Vingo in the late battles of the Tour. In this sense, his explosiveness actually becomes a physiological barrier to conquering the Dane, all things being equal in a top form confrontation. It shall be interesting, therefore, to see if Pog can reclaim the throne at the biggest bike race on earth and if Vingo can duplicate or even better last year's performance.

 

[kn0s]

Please stop. I cannot deal anymore with the spin "Pog is a wheelsucker". It's a so vulgar and mediocre take that I just refuse to answer or allow myself to engage it.

Didn't they both write that it was definitely not the case?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In fact, this was precisely my point. In the sense that Vingo can sustain his substantial wattage over a longer period of time, through week three, whereas they are pretty evenly matched in weeks one and two. But the attrition of the third week allows Vingo to display a superior physiology. To go back to my original position, it seems to me the reason for this is that when one is endowed with great explosiveness, one loses something in resistance, the longer one is required to generate similar watts as time draws on (week three). Pog has come up short twice in a row, which is not a large enough sample size to draw definitive conclusions, however, orient trends, yes. And it seems to me, as great a cyclist as Pog is, he doesn't have a response to Vingo in the late battles of the Tour. In this sense, his explosiveness actually becomes a physiological barrier to conquering the Dane, all things being equal in a top form confrontation. It shall be interesting, therefore, to see if Pog can reclaim the throne at the biggest bike race on earth and if Vingo can duplicate or even better last year's performance.

Yeah, a better developed anaerobic system (fast twitch muscles) maybe has some cost. There's a limit on efficiency of both systems combined, especially at the Tour where every kilogram counts (explosivity "weights" a bit).

 

[Extinction]

Yeah, a better developed anaerobic system (fast twitch muscles) maybe has some cost. There's a limit on efficiency of both systems combined, especially at the Tour where every kilogram counts (explosivity "weights" a bit).

Nice way of putting it and I suspect this is more or less correct. Being able to generate short turns of speed, seems to hinder one's long-duration resistance. Whether this has to do with metabolizing lactic acid effeciency, VO2 max or other factors, I wouldn't know. But mother nature seems to prohibit combining great explosivity with great resistance in a single human being. Of course, Pog is an exception. He has both traits, but even he pays the price against a Vingegaard, who may have the best aerobic capacity we've ever seen.

 

[Froome]

Yeah, a better developed anaerobic system (fast twitch muscles) maybe has some cost. There's a limit on efficiency of both systems combined, especially at the Tour where every kilogram counts (explosivity "weights" a bit).

It's impressive the fact he weighs the same as Quintana (58 kg).

 

[Didinho]

They all say you get better with a GT in the legs, so Pogi is gonna stomp the Tour.

That's what I'm hoping. I'm also a bit sceptical how it will turn out. Maybe starting the Giro with a peak and go 1 time really hard (like Froome), consolidate and follow the wheels for 2 weeks.

 

[Tim Cahill]

He absolutely needs to wheelsuck, if you're watching the TDF stages from the start he's riding around like a he's got ants in his pants from the gun, random ass attacks with 150k to go on nondescript breakaway profiles, trying to sprint at the end of stages for no reason., it's no wonder he runs out of energy, cumulative fatigue. Watching 2022 stage 11 again, what on earth does he think is happening putting in a big attack on the Galibier, someone needs to have a word, maybe they have and he hasn't listened.

That said I hope he doesn't because it's entertaining as ***.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Didn't they both write that it was definitely not the case?

When one is reminded that a whole sport is based in the marginal advantages of saving watts in the wind along a parcours, the term "wheelsucking" is as descriptive and insulting as the term "ballkicker" would be for a football player or facebeater for a boxer.

Everyone wheelsucks. It's part of race dynamics. Only naif, young and careless riders avoid it everynow and then. They usually end up dearly paying for it.

 

[scribers]

I see wheelsucker a little more narrowly. Like staying on the wheel of the nearest competitor, either in the peloton, in a selection, or heading to the finish out front with a few or in a sprint. Pog sucking Vingo’s wheel is probably the noblest use of the situation. I hope he does it too and spends no unnecessary energy

 

[Cookster15]

He absolutely needs to wheelsuck, if you're watching the TDF stages from the start he's riding around like a he's got ants in his pants from the gun, random ass attacks with 150k to go on nondescript breakaway profiles, trying to sprint at the end of stages for no reason., it's no wonder he runs out of energy, cumulative fatigue. Watching 2022 stage 11 again, what on earth does he think is happening putting in a big attack on the Galibier, someone needs to have a word, maybe they have and he hasn't listened.

That said I hope he doesn't because it's entertaining as ***.

Agree with everything you wrote, except we had our entertainment in 2022. Now I hope we see Pog race smart, like Cadel in 2011.

With the Giro in his legs Pogacar simply cannot afford to waste energy. He needs to pick when to attack and who to follow. There is only one wheel he should worry about - Vingegaard. If Roglic attacks he should let Vingegaard take the initiative. By racing conservatively, fans might get annoyed but it might also force Vingegaard to use more energy?

I wonder how much of Vingegaard's superiority in the 3rd week is because he saved more energy than Pogacar via tactics and also being better protected by a stronger team?

I am also of the view Pogacar's collapse on stage 17 was due to a lack of base related to his LBL crash and interrupted prep.

I'll admit this is me hoping rather than what is likely.

 

[scribers]

Every favorable stage Ayuso, almeida, and Yates take turns trying to get in the break. Full gas. One of them has to get in and it will be vismas job to bring it back in. Bora and QS have to show discipline if they want a chance to get up the road themselves. I’d want nothing to do with this *** either if I was Wout

 

[Berniece]

When one is reminded that a whole sport is based in the marginal advantages of saving watts in the wind along a parcours, the term "wheelsucking" is as descriptive and insulting as the term "ballkicker" would be for a football player or facebeater for a boxer.

Everyone wheelsucks. It's part of race dynamics. Only naif, young and careless riders avoid it everynow and then. They usually end up dearly paying for it.

I disagree completely. Everyone can see when someone is wheelsucking and when someone is preserving strength. Cyclists name this themselves, that they deliberately choose not to work with someone because they are known to wheelsuck.

 

[Extinction]

When one is reminded that a whole sport is based in the marginal advantages of saving watts in the wind along a parcours, the term "wheelsucking" is as descriptive and insulting as the term "ballkicker" would be for a football player or facebeater for a boxer.

Everyone wheelsucks. It's part of race dynamics. Only naif, young and careless riders avoid it everynow and then. They usually end up dearly paying for it.

Wheelsucking applies to a rider deliberately staying on the wheel to gain advantage from another's efforts when a race is "on", when he could ride himself or attack. But Pogi can't be accused of this, while Roglic yes. Although the former has been criticized at times for being over-exuberant, if not recklessly cavalier, the latter praised for tactical astuteness (except when his conservative riding ultimately wound up losing him the 2020 Tour - ironically overtaken by the more cavalier one - when coming up short in the last TT).

I wonder how much of Vingegaard's superiority in the 3rd week is because he saved more energy than Pogacar via tactics and also being better protected by a stronger team?

I am also of the view Pogacar's collapse on stage 17 was due to a lack of base related to his LBL crash and interrupted prep.

I'll admit this is me hoping rather than what is likely.

I think Pogacar can't let go an opportunity to gain time on Vingo in the first weeks of the Tour, when his explosiveness permits, because, in theory at least, he can't go into week three without an advantage over the Dane. For this is when Jonas gains the upperhand owing to his apparent superior recovery and aerobic effeciency. In this sense, I think it matters little if Tadej holds back in weeks one and two, as he still won't gain a performance advantage over Jonas during the third week, while he won't have any time to lose either. In practice it remains to be seen, but this is the impression I have.

 

[YavorD]

I wonder how much of Vingegaard's superiority in the 3rd week is because he saved more energy than Pogacar via tactics and also being better protected by a stronger team?

I might remember wrong, but to me it seemed that Vingegaard spent at least as much energy as Pog, probably even more in 2023.
I men, he was riding like crazy after Marie Blanque, he attacked on Tourmalet, he was sometimes alone in the wind in the last kilometers of flat stages, he even chased down few attacks made by Adam in some of these transitional stages in the second week.
Now, I didn't watch the full flat stages, but at least in the last kilometers, he seemed to be using more energy than Pogacar.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I might remember wrong, but to me it seemed that Vingegaard spent at least as much energy as Pog, probably even more in 2023.
I men, he was riding like crazy after Marie Blanque, he attacked on Tourmalet, he was sometimes alone in the wind in the last kilometers of flat stages, he even chased down few attacks made by Adam in some of these transitional stages in the second week.
Now, I didn't watch the full flat stages, but at least in the last kilometers, he seemed to be using more energy than Pogacar.

2022 was another story (Galibier, cobbles) but yeah, in 2023 Vingo used up a lot of energy. As you said, Marie-Blanque stage and the next day when he wanted to kill Pog once and for all. In the middle of the race they both used up similar amount of energy. In the 3rd week Vingo had another very strong ride (Loze). Definitely last year Pog didn't use more energy than Vingo (probably less) and his team was as strong as JV actually.

 

[Peter von]

I might remember wrong, but to me it seemed that Vingegaard spent at least as much energy as Pog, probably even more in 2023.
I men, he was riding like crazy after Marie Blanque, he attacked on Tourmalet, he was sometimes alone in the wind in the last kilometers of flat stages, he even chased down few attacks made by Adam in some of these transitional stages in the second week.
Now, I didn't watch the full flat stages, but at least in the last kilometers, he seemed to be using more energy than Pogacar.

He did certainly waste some energy he didn't have to, but always difficult to add all those up, but I think it opens up for: even if Vingo is just better at recovery, there is a route for a Pogi to better at resource management over 3 weeks.

But IMO the big thing about Pogi and UAE being more passive compared to earlier is that it put further cost on Visma to make sure the pace is hard on all the climbs. It's great to have initiative, but can also be costly over 3 weeks.

 

[Cookster15]

2022 was another story (Galibier, cobbles) but yeah, in 2023 Vingo used up a lot of energy. As you said, Marie-Blanque stage and the next day when he wanted to kill Pog once and for all. In the middle of the race they both used up similar amount of energy. In the 3rd week Vingo had another very strong ride (Loze). Definitely last year Pog didn't use more energy than Vingo (probably less) and his team was as strong as JV actually.

Maybe the LBL crash and lost time on the bike caught up with his recovery? We know he went super deep on the TT. Next day he appeared completely empty. Maybe that won’t happen again? I am just trying to be optimistic as cycling doesn’t always pan out as expected.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I disagree completely. Everyone can see when someone is wheelsucking and when someone is preserving strength. Cyclists name this themselves, that they deliberately choose not to work with someone because they are known to wheelsuck.

Wheelsucking is preserving strength. You can't accuse any rider if he preferes to save himself rather than burn his matches prematurely just with the goal of you and other viewers to have a dopamine kick.

Wheelsucking applies to a rider deliberately staying on the wheel to gain advantage from another's efforts when a race is "on", when he could ride himself or attack. But Pogi can't be accused of this, while Roglic yes. Although the former has been criticized at times for being over-exuberant, if not recklessly cavalier, the latter praised for tactical astuteness (except when his conservative riding ultimately wound up losing him the 2020 Tour - ironically overtaken by the more cavalier one - when coming up short in the last TT).

Nonsense. Every rider can ride for himself but why should he be burnt that way until the right moment comes, if it comes at all? Wheelsucking, feigning tiredness, race reading, body reading, attacking, conserving your energy are all skills in a sport that is based on managing efforts along a race or various days.

The fact that everyone wheelsucks is why many races are won when an attacker escapes a large group and group dynamics fail in the pursuit. While everyone knows that he can be brought up in terms of sheer strenght, the rider won't likely be caught because someone has to do the work (unless he is MVDP) while other would wheelsuck his lifeforce and would likely benefit in the end, leaving him without any profit.

 

[Berniece]

Wheelsucking is preserving strength. You can't accuse any rider if he preferes to save himself rather than burn his matches prematurely just with the goal of you and other viewers to have a dopamine kick.

That's completely true, but I can call someone a boring rider, and a wheelsucker if they don't give me a dopamine kick. I don't have an affinity with a rider because of their age, gender, or nationality. I like them based on how they ride and behave on/off the bike. There's a reason why a lot of people like WVA, MVDP, Pogacar. It's not only because they win.

On top of that. Those dopamine kicks is what make people watch the sport, and thus what funds this whole business. Most people get those kicks from attractive riding, not from doing nothing all race and still winning. The rider that won might not care about it, but the watcher does. I get that if you are a fan of someone that wins his races like this, you also don't care, eventually you won, but the rest can definitely critique that method of racing since it's boring.

 

[sam6]

It does kinda sound like Pogi should consider trying the wheel sucking. See if he can get Vingegaard to either expend more energy or risk not making the race hard enough for his recovery to make the difference. Sure snack some bonus seconds if they are there, but don't plan on them.

Going off data and results from past two seasons still won't be enough, but Pogi should consider giving it a go IMO. Visma clearly want the hard race so stop giving your opponent what they want.

Exactly, he should wheel suck and only attack in the last few kms and from long range on the gravel. His best stage was the Tourmalet stage finishing at Cauterets-Cambasque where Jumbo blew the race to pieces early and then Pogi wheel sucked Vingegaard until it became clear that he was stronger then he attacked. Pogi should try and replicate this

 

[Elos Anjos]

That's completely true, but I can call someone a boring rider, and a wheelsucker if they don't give me a dopamine kick. I don't have an affinity with a rider because of their age, gender, or nationality. I like them based on how they ride and behave on/off the bike. There's a reason why a lot of people like WVA, MVDP, Pogacar. It's not only because they win.

On top of that. Those dopamine kicks is what make people watch the sport, and thus what funds this whole business. Most people get those kicks from attractive riding, not from doing nothing all race and still winning. The rider that won might not care about it, but the watcher does. I get that if you are a fan of someone that wins his races like this, you also don't care, eventually you won, but the rest can definitely critique that method of racing since it's boring.

OK! Great to see we are going somewhere. I just want to stress that "wheelsucker" is just on the eye of the beholder. It's a matter of taste. And of course daring and sucessful attacks are more popular for viewers and for me as well. But I can't blame riders for doing that.

Nevertheless, I for one have been stating again and again how a rider being boring or not is not up to his choice, so he can't really be praised about that. Do you think Pogacar attacks just because he wants? Or is that he attacks first and foremost because he can attack? Everyone rider would like to be more attacking but as they age, they learn to read when they should in fact do it.

Quintana attacked a lot more when he was younger. He did attack sometimes just to be brought back. So of course between viewers dopamine kicks, popularity and sponsors pressure, wheelsucking sometimes comes as the better strategy.

 

[Peter von]

Exactly, he should wheel suck and only attack in the last few kms and from long range on the gravel. His best stage was the Tourmalet stage finishing at Cauterets-Cambasque where Jumbo blew the race to pieces early and then Pogi wheel sucked Vingegaard until it became clear that he was stronger then he attacked. Pogi should try and replicate this

I'd say he probably should considder waiting to the last k, unless Vingo is ill or something. Pogi might gain 20 seconds in week 2 if the stage suits him better, but the idea Visma has is that, the cost of that effort translates to 40 seconds the other way in third week.

Gravel is another matter, there he has to put the pressure on, but here he'll also be helped massively by favorites to the stage win