Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

And now Pogačar is human & normal again.

I know people will scoff at this comment but that's... how cycling works. There's no miracle, i.e. la rançon de la gloire ("the price of fame" as the French call it) in cycling is total suspicion of wrongdoing when the gaps are massive & the first opponent gets annihilated.

Ullrich is a case study: doped to the gills yet at the time became the 'human visage' of cycling (& enjoyed some popular support at the side of the roads) whilst a cyborg massacred him again & again every July. There's no secret here & Jumbo are deluding themselves if they think their propaganda in which Vinge blows kisses to the crowds & embraces his wife & kid over the finish line will somehow protect him from the role of cycling baddie.

Yep, Jumbo & Vingegaard are now the bad guys. That's the price they pay for dominating in the manner they now dominate, whilst Pog earns the 'human' tag of a rider who is seen suffering on a bike.

I would not out the Ullrich-Armstrong rivalry on the same level, because there was a vested interest in protecting the Texan. I can't see that being the case for Pog or Vingo.

 

[zlev11]

i think his very far from ideal preparation is starting to show up. he was training in his kitchen until June. the third week is when it would start to matter.

 

[Rackham]

I would not out the Ullrich-Armstrong rivalry on the same level, because there was a vested interest in protecting the Texan. I can't see that being the case for Pog or Vingo.

In France in terms of popular support, Armstrong was not loved at all. Ullrich first came to prominence as a German diesel machine who fought hard battles against Virenque but despite his personal problems, his own suspension & the fact people sort of guessed he was juicing it like the American was, he still became a sort of popular rider seen as a last stand against "arrogant Texan dominance".

The reason I say it's a 'case study' is because these riders are viewed however the 'people' want to see them, not how they portray themselves or how the media shows them; whilst what happens on the road really matters (i.e. even the biggest bad guy can become popular if he cracks & shows he's human, which is something very stereotypically French but very real nonetheless). Even Froome was getting love at the side of the roads over the last few Tours he participated in because he was human again. This is culturally anchored in attitudes here. I don't make the rules. Pog is now human & there's nothing Jumbo can do about the battle for hearts & minds (which was already in Pog's favor because of his perceived 'panache').

Ironically one of the only riders to escape this phenomenon was Indurain, but his absolute class on & off the bike granted him immunity. Meanwhile Jumbo's attitude & Vingegaard's aloofness won't do them any favors in the long term, starting next July. And it's funny to me that this situation regarding what makes a rider popular or unpopular endures even now when social media heavily sways opinions on all matters, except cycling.

Pogačar is just more popular than Vingegaard & what happened over the past 48 hours will only further cement this.

 

[magliaroz]

Pogačar is just more popular than Vingegaard & what happened over the past 48 hours will only further cement this.

In less than two years Jumbo went from "hard-working team winning races with their skyjumping star" to "evil mass-producers of JumBots". It's fashinating to see the opinion on social media change in real time.
Even more if you consider that their rival is the protégeé of Giannetti and Matxin, payed by a human rights hellhole like UAE.
It doesn't help Jumbo one bit that Jonas 100% looks the part of a cyborg and has the personality of a wet cloth.
Roglic was a way better character to work with, and so is Pogacar. Even is "I'm gone, I'm dead." dramatic radio message today was perfectly delivered for the story of the tragic hero.

 

[Rackham]

In less than two years Jumbo went from "hard-working team winning races with their skyjumping star" to "evil mass-producers of JumBots". It's fashinating to see the opinion on social media change in real time.
Even more if you consider that their rival is the protégeé of Giannetti and Matxin, payed by a human rights hellhole like UAE.
It doesn't help Jumbo one bit that Jonas 100% looks the part of a cyborg and has the personality of a wet cloth.
Roglic was a way better character to work with, and so is Pogacar. Even is "I'm gone, I'm dead." dramatic radio message today was perfectly delivered for the story of the tragic hero.

Roglič is a great example, i.e. I fought an uphill struggle against negative opinions of Rog back in September 2020 when people said he was a cyborg riding on rails. Anyone who knew him & knew his career could say that was the opposite of the truth (he was human & he cracks, like in the 2018 Tour or the 2019 Giro), but people had made up their minds based on the Tour 2020 alone. Then the greatest thing to ever happen to him (a gift of sorts) happened: La Planche des Belles Filles. It was a massacre which overnight made him likeable to people who'd hated him. Then his legendary Liège victory two weeks later was greeted with applause & celebration.

Moral of the story? To be popular, a rider needs to suffer & lose, for real. Not half-crack, not say "oh I suffered so much it was so hard blablabla", but actually lose for real. It doesn't matter who he is, what his name is or what his team's sponsor is, people need to see human suffering on a bike.

Roglič, Bernal, Pogačar... are humans. It's something Jumbo & Vingegaard cannot achieve until they lose properly.

 

[hender-retour]

Roglič is a great example, i.e. I fought an uphill struggle against negative opinions of Rog back in September 2020 when people said he was a cyborg riding on rails. Anyone who knew him & knew his career could say that was the opposite of the truth (he was human & he cracks, like in the 2018 Tour or the 2019 Giro), but people had made up their minds based on the Tour 2020 alone. Then the greatest thing to ever happen to him (a gift of sorts) happened: La Planche des Belles Filles. It was a massacre which overnight made him likeable to people who'd hated him. Then his legendary Liège victory two weeks later was greeted with applause & celebration.

Moral of the story? To be popular, a rider needs to suffer & lose, for real. Not half-crack, not say "oh I suffered so much it was so hard blablabla", but actually lose for real. It doesn't matter who he is, what his name is or what his team's sponsor is, people need to see human suffering on a bike.

Roglič, Bernal, Pogačar... are humans. It's something Jumbo & Vingegaard cannot achieve until they lose properly.

Are You saying if Vingegaard somehow fails next years TDF he will be much more likable?

It is sorta the same narrative as being often displayed here that You need the illusion of a level playing field to enjoy the race.

Some even argue they prefer riders holding back just for the (imaginary) suspense.

I find it mindboggling that the only thing seemingly satisfying or beleivable is a Lemon/Fignon scenario.

The reality is that most often there is one clear Victor. Doping or not. Mindboggling would be Lemons/Fignon scenarios every other year.

Edit: I think if Vingo fails next year and pogi wins the majority here will se it as justice served. The best rider finally win again.

Sure Pogi is a better all-rounder and probably the best all-rounder in decades. That doesn't mean he deserves to beat Vingo in the TDF when the latter is living each second of the year with that sole purpose. Call it dull, but respect the determination perhaps.

But no. We want it all. Like that is beleivable lol.

 

[Rackham]

Are You saying if Vingegaard somehow fails next years TDF he will be much more likable?

It is sorta the same narrative as being often displayed here that You need the illusion of a level playing field to enjoy the race.

Some even argue they prefer riders holding back just for the (imaginary) suspense.

I find it mindboggling that the only thing seemingly satisfying or beleivable is a Lemon/Fignon scenario.

The reality is that most often there is one clear Victor. Doping or not. Mindboggling would be Lemons/Fignon scenarios every other year.

Edit: I think if Vingo fails next year and pogi wins the majority here will se it as justice served. The best rider finally win again.

Sure Pogi is a better all-rounder and probably the best all-rounder in decades. That doesn't mean he deserves to beat Vingo in the TDF when the latter is living each second of the year with that sole purpose. Call it dull, but respect the determination perhaps.

But no. We want it all. Like that is beleivable lol.

Vingegaard is the spearhead of a powerful team which 'crushes' the Tour. This automatically affects his popularity. Like Sky & Postal.

Pog also rides classics, monuments & stays competitive on all terrains. Something which again makes him more popular. He also has more stage wins & more versatility in how he accomplished those wins.

I mean I could go on & on but it's not rocket science or unfair.

 

[hender-retour]

Vingegaard is the spearhead of a powerful team which 'crushes' the Tour. This automatically affects his popularity. Like Sky & Postal.

Pog also rides classics, monuments & stays competitive on all terrains. Something which again makes him more popular. He also has more stage wins & more versatility in how he accomplished those wins.

I mean I could go on & on but it's not rocket science or unfair.

You keep complaining about Vingegaard being a mutant and doing the GOAT of doping feats in this Tour. Don't You recognize the issue of saying everything would be better/more fair if Pogachar beat everyone, everywhere, all the time.
There is an inherent contradiction to Your approach to this if doping is the issue.

 

[Aimar16]

Roglič, Bernal, Pogačar... are humans. It's something Jumbo & Vingegaard cannot achieve until they lose properly.

He lost consistently until last July...

 

[Vudy]

I remember when people were smashing Pog for being invincible in 2021. Yet know we are seeing performances that are truly, utterly unbelievable. Last year I believed that Jonas was truly better prepared and Pogi wasn't at his best. But today and yesterday were simply astoundable peformances. And I am watching cycling from the year 1989 from.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar is a doper, everyone is. However, he seems human sometimes. This Vingegaard is just a clown. Yesterday we really had the most pathetic performance in modern cycling (since the 90s) after Landis.

 

[memyselfandI]

Big crowds love the underdog, as it's closer to average Joe or Jane in everyday life. Of course they love superheroes too. Up to a point..

 

[Vudy]

And after the tour Vingo will dissapear... He will look human again... If he will race at all.

 

[Riek s]

The only reason why Pog seems human, is because Vingegaard is even more inhuman.
Without Vingegaard, Pog would have decimated this tour. (and his current breakdown wouldn't have happened or shown)
Without Pog, Vingegaard would still have obliterated this tour.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The only reason why Pog seems human, is because Vingegaard is even more inhuman.
Without Vingegaard, Pog would have decimated this tour. (and his current breakdown wouldn't have happened or shown)
Without Pog, Vingegaard would still have obliterated this tour.

But Pogacar never came close to do something similar to what Vingegaard did yesterday. Never!

 

[Vudy]

But Pogacar never came close to do something similar to what Vingegaard did yesterday. Never!

Planche 2020 seems like a training ride from now on. Vingo would have put 5 minutes into everyone in his current form.

 

[Aimar16]

Without Vingegaard, Pog would have decimated this tour. (and his current breakdown wouldn't have happened or shown)

If there wasn't Vingegaard, Jumbo would have found someone else to step in. Like in 2021, after Roglic's injury, Vingegaard arrived...

 

[SHAD0W93]

If there wasn't Vingegaard, Jumbo would have found someone else to step in. Like in 2021, after Roglic's injury, Vingegaard arrived...

Most likely Kuss honestly.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

If there wasn't Vingegaard, Jumbo would have found someone else to step in. Like in 2021, after Roglic's injury, Vingegaard arrived...

Sure Vingegaard came out of nowhere, but I don't think you can just randomly turn someone into a superstar if the physiological conditions for your methods to work aren't really good. Sadly I have no idea how one goes around to find a good responder, but surely there are measurable indicators.

 

[Extinction]

In France in terms of popular support, Armstrong was not loved at all. Ullrich first came to prominence as a German diesel machine who fought hard battles against Virenque but despite his personal problems, his own suspension & the fact people sort of guessed he was juicing it like the American was, he still became a sort of popular rider seen as a last stand against "arrogant Texan dominance".

The reason I say it's a 'case study' is because these riders are viewed however the 'people' want to see them, not how they portray themselves or how the media shows them; whilst what happens on the road really matters (i.e. even the biggest bad guy can become popular if he cracks & shows he's human, which is something very stereotypically French but very real nonetheless). Even Froome was getting love at the side of the roads over the last few Tours he participated in because he was human again. This is culturally anchored in attitudes here. I don't make the rules. Pog is now human & there's nothing Jumbo can do about the battle for hearts & minds (which was already in Pog's favor because of his perceived 'panache').

Ironically one of the only riders to escape this phenomenon was Indurain, but his absolute class on & off the bike granted him immunity. Meanwhile Jumbo's attitude & Vingegaard's aloofness won't do them any favors in the long term, starting next July. And it's funny to me that this situation regarding what makes a rider popular or unpopular endures even now when social media heavily sways opinions on all matters, except cycling.

Pogačar is just more popular than Vingegaard & what happened over the past 48 hours will only further cement this.

It's not what France wanted, but the UCI regards the US market.

 

[ontheroad]

I wish some people would stop claiming that yesterdays performance was anything but top level by Pog. He was over a minute ahead of the rest of the competition which in anyone’s language is a top class performance. It’s just that relative to Vingegaard it was mediocre.

However today was the huge anomaly. It was inexplicable in fact and I can’t get my head around the extent of the bonk. The Granon stage last year at least can be explained away by the incessant attacks and trying to cover every Jumbo move single handedly. There was absolutely no indication that Pog would blow up in the manner he did today and it raises more questions than answers.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I wish some people would stop claiming that yesterdays performance was anything but top level by Pog. He was over a minute ahead of the rest of the competition which in anyone’s language is a top class performance. It’s just that relative to Vingegaard it was mediocre.

However today was the huge anomaly. It was inexplicable in fact and I can’t get my head around the extent of the bonk. The Granon stage last year at least can be explained away by the incessant attacks and trying to cover every Jumbo move single handedly. There was absolutely no indication that Pog would blow up in the manner he did today and it raises more questions than answers.

I think the easiest way to answer this is that he probably really didn't have the base for 3 weeks going into the tour after his injury. Some people make it seem like Pogacar always had this big looming third week weakness, which is just not the case if you look at his first 3 GTs. Also last year he was more spend for reasons. With hindsight you could say that he did start to seem less strong a few days ago, when he couldn't gap Vingegaard anymore. But yesterday was really strong, if not as strong as possible.
JV applying the groundbreaking new technique of making the race hard imo isn't an explanation for this whatsoever.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Maybe they were just convinced JV is unreachable and this is the real or very close to a clean human performance, with nothing to lose really. His second place is all but settled, and even if he completely fell of the podium, it was Adam Yates in second.

Whats next for Pogi? Maybe go for Worlds tittle, but that looks out of reach, Vuelta will also be hard with Rog and Remco.

 

[ontheroad]

I think the easiest way to answer this is that he probably really didn't have the base for 3 weeks going into the tour after his injury. Some people make it seem like Pogacar always had this big looming third week weakness, which is just not the case if you look at his first 3 GTs. Also last year he was more spend for reasons. With hindsight you could say that he did start to seem less strong a few days ago, when he couldn't gap Vingegaard anymore. But yesterday was really strong, if not as strong as possible.
JV applying the groundbreaking new technique of making the race hard imo isn't an explanation for this whatsoever.

If he’d lost 30-60 seconds I could buy that. Not 5 minutes.

It just doesn’t add up, he has had some not so good days on the bike but even on those days he has managed to limit his losses bar Stage 11 2022 when there was at least a logical explanation. He was visibly in distress today and looked like a very low rank GC rider.

 

[DenisMenchov]

If he’d lost 30-60 seconds I could buy that. Not 5 minutes.

It just doesn’t add up, he has had some not so good days on the bike but even on those days he has managed to limit his losses bar Stage 11 2022 when there was at least a logical explanation. He was visibly in distress today and looked like a very low rank GC rider.

He never looked like he was really fighting, how many times have we seen Gaudu getting dropped, sprinting back to the group, getting dropped again, gasping for air, and face mimics? Pog just didn't care today