Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Slavique Nuke]

13 seconds.

But 920 watts for 13 seconds is not 'astonishing feats of the last ten years'

 

[ppanther92]

What does 13'' mean? Somehow I find it hard to
make sense of these numbers.

Seconds, which I don’t think is a mental stat in itself. All the sprinters do this and more. But ofc it was a strong attack, considering his weight and the altitude.

Focagno yesterday was “only” 6.1 W/kg for 35min btw.

Unfortunately no 2023 in the graph but just confirms myself a bit that there is no “new” Pogacar (or lets say - the improvements are at least overstated). 6.1 lies exactly on his 2021 and 2022 effort line for 35min, Vingegaard in this plot would even be a bit higher.

 

[Netserk]

The typical performance in that chart is not a good reference for Foscagno. Loze and Granon are probably the most comparable ones.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Seconds, which I don’t think is a mental stat in itself. All the sprinters do this and more. But ofc it was a strong attack, considering his weight and the altitude.

Focagno yesterday was “only” 6.1 W/kg for 35min btw.

Unfortunately no 2023 in the graph but just confirms myself a bit that there is no “new” Pogacar (or lets say - the improvements are at least overstated). 6.1 lies exactly on his 2021 and 2022 effort line for 35min, Vingegaard in this plot would even be a bit higher.

It has to be noted that the average elevation of Foscagno climb was over 1800 meters so much higher than all those examples. The stage was also very difficult. Those factors lowered w/kg not only for Pog but also for other guys.

 

[Froome]

Seconds, which I don’t think is a mental stat in itself. All the sprinters do this and more. But ofc it was a strong attack, considering his weight and the altitude.

Focagno yesterday was “only” 6.1 W/kg for 35min btw.

Unfortunately no 2023 in the graph but just confirms myself a bit that there is no “new” Pogacar (or lets say - the improvements are at least overstated). 6.1 lies exactly on his 2021 and 2022 effort line for 35min, Vingegaard in this plot would even be a bit higher.

I agree.

And for who thinks this is a "new pogacar", better check the last 13 min effort on tourmalet and compare with the last 13 min effort yesterday on Foscagno.

 

[Salvarani]

It has to be noted that the average elevation of Foscagno climb was over 1800 meters so much higher than all those examples. The stage was also very difficult. Those factors lowered w/kg not only for Pog but also for other guys.

Stop making sense, they dont care about those factors.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I agree.

And for who thinks this is a "new pogacar", better check the last 13 min effort on tourmalet and compare with the last 13 min effort yesterday on Foscagno.

It seems the performances of last 13 mins on Foscagno and Tourmalet are quite similar (in terms of w/kg). Obviously Foscagno's 1770-1780 m/h of VAM is much lower but really big for such a shallow gradient. Still, Foscagno's effort is on average almost 200 meters higher. If Pog is in form comparable to Tourmalet it's not bad - after all he beat Vingo on that day.

 

[Froome]

It seems the performances of last 13 mins on Foscagno and Tourmalet are quite similar (in terms of w/kg). Obviously Foscagno's 1770-1780 m/h of VAM is much lower but really big for such a shallow gradient. Still, Foscagno's effort is on average almost 200 meters higher. If Pog is in form comparable to Tourmalet it's not bad - after all he beat Vingo on that day.

The "funny" thing about that final section of Tourmalet is that according to ammattipyoraily, Vingegaard did 6.91 w/kg and Pogacar 6.74 because the draft was a significant role.

Yeah, Pogacar perfomance was similar with yesterday, and the climb was on a similar average altitude with Foscagno, plus the final effort.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The "funny" thing about that final section of Tourmalet is that according to ammattipyoraily, Vingegaard did 6.91 w/kg and Pogacar 6.74 because the draft was a significant role.

Yeah, Pogacar perfomance was similar with yesterday, and the climb was on a similar average altitude with Foscagno, plus the final effort.

I know that Vingo did higher w/kg due to aerodynamics but those estimates vary. I'm pretty sure I saw a difference of 0.08-0.09 w/kg in some place, not 0.17 w/kg (which seems quite a lot for 21 kph)).

 

[Red Rick]

May just be me, but drafting being 10W or there abouts at 21kph seems a bit high?

 

[Froome]

I know that Vingo did higher w/kg due to aerodynamics but those estimates vary. I'm pretty sure I saw a difference of 0.08-0.09 w/kg in some place, not 0.17 w/kg (which seems quite a lot for 21 kph)).

6.91 w/kg-JV and 6.83 w/kg-TP, on Lanterne rouge(Naichaca). Probably you saw there, but i trust more in ammattipyoraily.

 

[ppanther92]

It has to be noted that the average elevation of Foscagno climb was over 1800 meters so much higher than all those examples. The stage was also very difficult. Those factors lowered w/kg not only for Pog but also for other guys.

Fair point, but hard to pin down the effect of that. But ofc, true. Less oxygen, less Watts possible.

 

[Red Rick]

The typical performance in that chart is not a good reference for Foscagno. Loze and Granon are probably the most comparable ones.

I don't even think we should pay too much attention to the whole of Foscagno, but more to the numbers after the attack. Consistent 30 minute efforts are pretty rare while the 12-15 minute attack duration is much more common.

 

[Netserk]

I don't even think we should pay too much attention to the whole of Foscagno, but more to the numbers after the attack. Consistent 30 minute efforts are pretty rare while the 12-15 minute attack duration is much more common.

From Lanterne Rouge/Naichaca: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/05/1...livignos-thin-air-giro-ditalia-stage-15-2024/

Foscagno: 22'23" at 5.64 W/kg + 13'07" at 6.88 W/kg = 35'30" at 6.10 W/kg | (top at 2291 m)

Vingegaard's attacks (San Giacomo and Petrano could be added as well, but both are shorter), though note that these are not directly comparable as they are by another method:

So roughly:

Hautacam: 24'40'' at 6.1 W/kg + 11'54'' at 6.68 W/kg = 36'34'' at 6.35 W/kg | (top at 1520 m)
Tourmalet*: 23'25'' at 5.8 W/kg + 13'27'' at 6.8 W/kg = 36'52'' at 6.17 W/kg | (top at 2115 m)
Granon: 20'36'' at 5.83 W/kg + 15'20'' at 6.34 W/kg = 35'56'' at 6.05 W/kg | (top at 2404 m)

*Based on the GPS times from Gripp and estimated with [Dr.F].

EDIT: LR/Naichaca numbers for San Giacomo: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/03/0...as-vingegaard-tirreno-adriatico-2024-stage-6/

San Giacomo: 14'27" at 6.39 W/kg + 11'38" at 7.04 W/kg = 26'05" at 6.68 W/kg | (top at 1156 m)

 

[Red Rick]

From Lanterne Rouge/Naichaca: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/05/1...livignos-thin-air-giro-ditalia-stage-15-2024/

Foscagno: 22'23" at 5.64 W/kg + 13'07" at 6.88 W/kg = 35'30" at 6.10 W/kg | (top at 2291 m)

Vingegaard's attacks (San Giacomo and Petrano could be added as well, but both are shorter), though note that those are not directly comparable as they are by another method:


EDIT: LR/Naichaca numbers for San Giacomo: https://lanternerouge.com/2024/03/0...as-vingegaard-tirreno-adriatico-2024-stage-6/

San Giacomo: 14'27" at 6.39 W/kg + 11'38" at 7.04 W/kg = 26'05" at 6.68 W/kg | (top at 1156 m)

Hmm I remember lower numbers for the initial pace on Granon and Tourmalet.

What's the DrF method adjustment on drafting? 30% less air resistance?

 

[Netserk]

Hmm I remember lower numbers for the initial pace on Granon and Tourmalet.

What's the DrF method adjustment on drafting? 30% less air resistance?

Only Tourmalet is with DrF (in order to get it for the segment that starts from Gripp), it does not account for different degrees of drafting, based only on VAM and gradient.

EDIT: It's all ballpark numbers, and the efforts beforehand vary in different ways, so it just offers a sense of how the performances differ.

 

[Extinction]

They activated a new copy of Skeletor. He probably still can't ride a bike but if they teach him before the Tour Teddy will have his hands full.

The thing is Pog is always too good on all terrains the whole year long. I get he is super talented, but, come on, there are no phenomenons in cycling, only superior programs.

 

[kingjr]

The thing is Pog is always too good on all terrains the whole year long. I get he is super talented, but, come on, there are no phenomenons in cycling, only superior programs.

There are phenomenons everyhwere, why not in cycling, specifically.

 

[Extinction]

There are phenomenons everyhwere, why not inat cycling, specifically.

It's simply a way of saying that, since they are all very good, some better than others, at that level nobody can be head and shoulders above the rest all the time. And besides the Gianetti/Arab money combination makes it that I just can't believe what I'm seeing.

 

[kingjr]

It's simply a way of saying that, since they are all very good, some better than others, at that level nobody can be head and shoulders above the rest all the time. And besides the Gianetti/Arab money combination makes it that I just can't believe what I'm seeing.

Well, he isn't

 

[Extinction]

Well, he isn't

The past four seasons, with two exceptions, he Indeed has been. And this season is just ridiculous. He rides without competition. If he continues this way at the Tour, I'll start to take the peospect of motor doping seriously.

 

[shadowrider]

Comparing watts and climbs is so boring and partly irrelevant. You (also) have to look at the body (face)language of Pogacar and the opponents. He ridiculed the opposition and did so literally and figuratively with a smile. I am more and more convinced that things are not happening in a normal (and permitted) way. It's starting to look more and more like Armstrong's cycling style. Not jumping, just accelerate and maintain that acceleration for hundreds of meters. Afterwards, lower the speed slightly and maintain it until the finish. While the opponents themselves can hardly accelerate a little. To reduce the speed very soon after and more than Poga. With current research methods, this sophisticated deception can never end. As it didn't with Armstrong. Simply using EPO, then detectable for years...... But his cheating did not come to light in a laboratory. I think the same is happening with Pogacar and Vingegaard (and some of their teammates).

 

[kingjr]

The past four seasons, with two exceptions, he Indeed has been. And this season is just ridiculous. He rides without competition. If he continues this way at the Tour, I'll start to take the peospect of motor doping seriously.

Those were two very significant major exceptions, given that it's the biggest goal of the season. He also has been trying very hard for a few years now to win Milan San Remo, without success. Nor has he had any at the World Championships.

 

[Extinction]

Those were two very significant major exceptions, given that it's the biggest goal of the season. He also has been trying very hard for a few years now to win Milan San Remo, without success. Nor has he had any at the World Championships.

MSR, however, in the modern age is least suited to him so understandable. He arrived at the WCs over-cooked and not targeting them specifically like two other Bigs. Last year's Tour he hastened his prep, whereas two years ago sinned of hubris (Vingegaard is a separate discussion). So those major exceptions have their reasons, in primis because Jonas is another mutant. But Tadej currently is making a mockery of things.

 

[Hugh Januss]