Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[ashhutch1997]

I'm very close to given up on watching cycling if this continues, I've watched cycling for over 20 years, through the so called 'dark years'. But this makes the Armstrong years look somewhat believable compared to this..

 

[Psycat]

He must have something because this is just unreal.

I really need a break from Pog now.

I mean you have a break just not for long, he will be back fistbumping the losers at the finish line at the Olympics soon enough.

 

[Divergence]

Sure, it seems like it is impossible to be so much better than all the rest... But then I sometimes remind myself of, e.g., Magnus Carlsen. He seems to be dominating chess on a similar level. So, at the end of the day, I do not quite know what to think...

 

[Saint Unix]

Pog delivering his victory speech in English, especially for the people that don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. He's sorry for them. He's sorry they can’t dream big and he's sorry they don’t believe in miracles...

 

[JWTS]

All of the Pog hate shows that people have really lost the plot. Yes, I realize this is a Pog thread, but the current state of the peloton doesn't really have to do much with him. He's just one part of the machine.

I found this pretty telling: https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...t-goodbye-pushing-best-numbers-finish-top-20/

This isn't sour grapes of a guy who's getting dropped, the times on the climbs pretty much bear this out. Bernal also seems to be back to his tour-winning level, or very close. He's getting destroyed.

I seriously doubt that Pog has any special dope or protection that other top rider's don't. I mean, finishing 2nd in THIS tour at these speeds on 6 weeks of training? That's equally unbelievable. But the list goes on. There are some guys putting out career power numbers pretty late into their careers.

 

[SHAD0W93]

If Pogacar does ever test positive, this whole era will crumble. Even more so if Vingegaard gets a positive as well. Next year it’ll be interesting if he keeps this performance or levels off a little.

 

[Red Rick]

Peak Hahaha era indeed. Casual 10% increase in performance between Giro and Tour.

If you enjoy this, dont even begin to tell me you care about the sport. Its like supporting a billionaire making the extra buck. Any semblance of the slightest equity even in doping is completely goners

 

[JWTS]

Sure, it seems like it is impossible to be so much better than all the rest... But then I sometimes remind myself of, e.g., Magnus Carlsen. He seems to be dominating chess on a similar level. So, at the end of the day, I do not quite know what to think...

Pog may be a generational talent, and potentially one of the best cyclists in history.

Pog is doped to the gills.

Both of these things can be true! For the record, I have no position on the matter. If you look historically at the margins of victory in the TDF results prior to the advent of o2 vector doping, and guys won be massive margins. Yes, the sport was different, blah blah, but the reality of sports is that some people are better than others. Some people are really good. And some people are dominant in the sport.

The reality is the Pog isn't really that dominant in stage racing though. JVV is definitely his equal, and yes, this includes this year. The guy was in the ICU 90 days ago and had roughly 45 days to prepare--for a 3 week stage race!? When you factor that in, and the 6 minute margin of victory, if I'm putting money down on next year's TDF, I'm not putting it on Pog...

The bigger issue is that the top 10 guys are riding at Indurain/Pantani levels, or higher, and that flatland helpers are shelling climbers, riding at a pace that would make George Hincapie blush.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Peak Hahaha era indeed. Casual 10% increase in performance between Giro and Tour.

If you enjoy this, dont even begin to tell me you care about the sport. Its like supporting a billionaire making the extra buck. Any semblance of the slightest equity even in doping is completely goners

Yeah if this continues it will kill the sport.

 

[SorelyBoy]

In a vacuum, sure. Sky folks were pushing way less power compared to today. However, considering who were in the Sky train, I think these guys are more realistic than former track riders or nobodies who could not ride in a straight line before joining the Sky train.

Sky were utter amateurs compared to UAE and what Pogacar is doing is on another planet compare to Froome and co. Sky pushed envelopes, no doubt. They were hugely successful but the margins of that success were very slim. Neither did they also have one guy performing through the year hoovering up classic races and GCs like the competition is pro continental level. There are things happening today which just beggar belief in there sheer audacity. Something changed 2019 and then COVID gave them the opportunity to accelerate their testing. Whatever it is, they need stopped.

 

[GuntherL1]

He was rolling the last kilometre. If you are an elite athlete, or even just an amateur cyclist, taking it easy for a few minutes will dramatically drop your bpm. But of course you probably know that.

REv and Vingegaard already finished for a few minutes. I guess that dramatically drop their bpm as well.

 

[GuntherL1]

All of the Pog hate shows that people have really lost the plot. Yes, I realize this is a Pog thread, but the current state of the peloton doesn't really have to do much with him. He's just one part of the machine.

I found this pretty telling: https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...t-goodbye-pushing-best-numbers-finish-top-20/

This isn't sour grapes of a guy who's getting dropped, the times on the climbs pretty much bear this out. Bernal also seems to be back to his tour-winning level, or very close. He's getting destroyed.

I seriously doubt that Pog has any special dope or protection that other top rider's don't. I mean, finishing 2nd in THIS tour at these speeds on 6 weeks of training? That's equally unbelievable. But the list goes on. There are some guys putting out career power numbers pretty late into their careers.

That's not the point. It's about effortless dominance throughout the season on all terrain. It never happened before and for good reason.

 

[Extinction]

Crazy stuff again, I wonder will the cycling media now hail him as the greatest cyclist of all time. Because if they believe in him then they should be throwing out the superlatives for what he has produced day after day in 2 Grand Tours. Deep down they know given the history of the sport that these performances are as suspicious as anything produced in the EPO era but they are all aboard the gravy train. And as for the UCI, they have lost control of the sport again (not that they ever were in control).

UAE sponsorship is more important than anti-doping.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Peak Hahaha era indeed. Casual 10% increase in performance between Giro and Tour.

If you enjoy this, dont even begin to tell me you care about the sport. Its like supporting a billionaire making the extra buck. Any semblance of the slightest equity even in doping is completely goners

The H-bombs on PdB and Isola were even more shocking considering that he rode the Giro. No fatigue but instead a boost of performance. It almost seems like he dominated the Giro while being "off-form". To me the biggest question is how they managed his form since the start of the season: I mean he had an 81-km solo on the 1st of March, almost 5 months ago and still no signs of slowing down.

 

[E_F_]

How long does Tadej's top placement in this TdF stand? Chicken? Beef-eater? Cancer survivor?

Beef-eater? Cancer survivor? Will it stand in spite of proof or admission of doping? Will nothing come out?

 

[Extinction]

This is absolutely true.

When people call long distance attacks & huge margins 'real ciclismo', what they're really saying is they're nostalgic of the 1990's EPO & coke addicts shooting up the cols like they were on the flat.

It's bread & circuses.

You'd have to go back to pre-scientific doping to find this type of cycling. It's come full circle only now they go supersonic.

 

[ontheroad]

UAE sponsorship is more important than anti-doping.

The same thing applied in football with Manchester City who were initially banned for 2 years for FFP regulation breaches by UEFA from European competition but which was lifted on appeal. Then charged with 115 offences by the premier league but we know that they will not be sanctioned since they can afford the best lawyers.

It’s sportswashing by nation states and it can help to buy immunity. It’s the tail wagging the dog as the governing bodies are subservient to those teams/nations pouring the money in.

 

[burning]

Mou, is that you? You're trying to divert attention to Vingegaard and you're free to do so in another topic.
Pogacar a generational talent? Right. After he joined UAE in 2019.

He was hanging on with WT pros before joining UAE while he was riding for a no-name team in Slovenia in 2017-2018. Pretty sure he was not on a top level gear back then

 

[Extinction]

The H-bombs on PdB and Isola were even more shocking considering that he rode the Giro. No fatigue but instead a boost of performance. It almost seems like he dominated the Giro while being "off-form". To me the biggest question is how they managed his form since the start of the season: I mean he had an 81-km solo on the 1st of March, almost 5 months ago and still no signs of slowing down.

He's the Forest Gump of cycling.

 

[Red Rick]

The H-bombs on PdB and Isola were even more shocking considering that he rode the Giro. No fatigue but instead a boost of performance. It almost seems like he dominated the Giro while being "off-form". To me the biggest question is how they managed his form since the start of the season: I mean he had an 81-km solo on the 1st of March, almost 5 months ago and still no signs of slowing down.

Giro plays the least part in this for me.

the only way its interesting to me is to find look at some patterns and from that infer how doping works these days.

To me it seems theres a base level that lasts for 2/3rds of the season amd then there is is some wild short acting *** that makes you go ballistic in target races.

To me the fact that the season to season improvement is so big suggests that is a true and tried method and they just ramped up the dosage.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Is Pogi maybe a super-responder to Carbon Monoxide treatmeant ?
Certainly he is an unqiue cycling talent, but this year seems .... incredible.... somehow

 

[Climbing]

Sure, it seems like it is impossible to be so much better than all the rest... But then I sometimes remind myself of, e.g., Magnus Carlsen. He seems to be dominating chess on a similar level. So, at the end of the day, I do not quite know what to think...

I'll jump in as I'm a chess FM
Magnus is not even remotely close as being dominant as Pogacar is right now.
He's clearly the best (even more so in short time controls) but the difference isn't that marked.
He's the favorite in any tournaments he enters, but it's not obvious he would easily win, it's often very close.

I would say this is comparable to how Kasparov dominated (winning by 3-4 points clear every single tournament with extremely rare occurrences), but chess nowadays with engines and modern preparation is way more levelled.

On Pogacar this is obviously absurd, but to be perfectly fair Vingegard coming back from the dead and being 2nd in the TdF is even more miraculous...

 

[Cookster15]

Mou, is that you? You're trying to divert attention to Vingegaard and you're free to do so in another topic.
Pogacar a generational talent? Right. After he joined UAE in 2019.

And you are diverting equal attention from Vingo.

Pogacar signed with UAE in August 2018 when he was only 19. Even I was improving quickly at that age. Pogacar is obviously doped to the gills. But please do not pretend Vingegaard isn't as well. Why else do you think Visma were so arrogant and cocky they could beat him despite the April crash, hospitalization and massive injuries?

 

[samhocking]

The H-bombs on PdB and Isola were even more shocking considering that he rode the Giro. No fatigue but instead a boost of performance. It almost seems like he dominated the Giro while being "off-form". To me the biggest question is how they managed his form since the start of the season: I mean he had an 81-km solo on the 1st of March, almost 5 months ago and still no signs of slowing down.

I'm pretty sure the story of UAE will be similar to Jumbo which is similar to Sky and nothing of substance found. The teams are just clicking as one, all areas in management, nutrition, medical, training and marginal gains and it's coming together on demand. I think Visma are operating at a significantly higher level than UAE though. Remove Pogacar and UAE are an Almeida or Yates-level team.

 

[Salvarani]

Peak Hahaha era indeed. Casual 10% increase in performance between Giro and Tour.

If you enjoy this, dont even begin to tell me you care about the sport. Its like supporting a billionaire making the extra buck. Any semblance of the slightest equity even in doping is completely goners

Vinge is even worse though. How did he almost die and expect he can win the TdF against this guy a couple of months later? That is what is TRULY bringing shame on cycling.

Speak to that.