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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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He finished 40-20 seconds behind the guys mentioned in 2017.

Penko was a good time trialist at this time for his age. Riding against Affini, being close to beating him, among other riders that has gone pro later.

2018 he had improved and beat them. He was one minute behind Tratnik, who won.

He was two years younger than them.
Right. Tratnik, that intergenerational ITT talent. It's weird. You have guys like Evenepoel or Tarling that are ITT talents when they hit the road, but the Slovenian needed to join UAE to become good at it. Amazing.
 
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Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all? Hmmm yeah sure. I get you you guys here dislike Pogacar I see the names I remember some quotes haha and you gather here and tell yourself everyone is doped and you feel better from it I get it.

Let me tell you guy what it really is, its called evolution or do you guys believe the nokia people used from 1997 is better than todays Iphone? They even use cognetive AI in different areas within the sport now its so many aspect and areas knowledge just is not comperable, litterally everything so naturally their better this is simply only evolution nothing else. The way they alter their training based on recovery and how much more they can do its all out there.. Mindboggling that you guys think the world stands still. Or maybe not everyone thinks it but just gather here with few fellow minded to feel better I get it and dont take this the wrong way, you all are here cause your fav rider whoever it is isnt winning well most of you anyway. Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it.

Now also the best climbing performance of all time. Pogacar is the best cyclist of all time and have been for a long time its nothing new just enjoy that your able to witness the best that has ever raced the bike is my tip your lucky afterall. In 100 years they wil speak of him in ways its hard to believe, you have the chance to witness him. Your lucky the end.

Remember life is great guys and enjoy it. Best intention do with that as you want cheers
If everyone is doped, explain why one guy is crushing everyone all season on all terrain without even having a single bad moment.
 
If Pogacar does ever test positive, this whole era will crumble. Even more so if Vingegaard gets a positive as well. Next year it’ll be interesting if he keeps this performance or levels off a little.
Like I also wished that Vos and AVV would test positive, just so real change can occur... but it never happened (because it can't be allowed to happen). Now Demi and Lotte have taken over and it's more of the same. The all conquering Dutch women cannot be allowed to torpedo women's cycling with a positive (~UCI, probably)
 
Did you miss last year's Tour and Vuelta? You're kidding me, right?
Are we talking about last year now? I prefer to talk about the present. That TdF of 2023 where Pogacar arrived with a wrist injury, is that the one where he dropped Vingegaard 3 times on a climb and where the entire TJV team had to race like mad men to force one bad day on Pogacar?

Yeah, we can completely compare that to a rider who won 12 stages as a non-sprinter in back to back GTs.
 
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Are we talking about last year now? I prefer to talk about the present.

Well the present is rather void without it being in the context of it's history, is it not?
Even the argument that you can't have a bad moment, only makes sense on historical comparison. You might as well make the argument, that a worse day by Pogacar doesn't even register most of the time because he's over the top good, so his bad days are very competetive while his good days, he can hardly be beaten on his terrain. There's also another guy who won the tour the last two years who managed to go for 2 Tours without even the hint of a bad day, and managed to produce his best ever numbers after coming out of the ICU not long ago. You could argue he didn't even have a really bad day either this Tour, he was just not as strong as Pogacar. So why are you worked up only about Pogacar, that's what I don't get.
 
Well the present is rather void without it being in the context of it's history, is it not?
Even the argument that you can't have a bad moment, only makes sense on historical comparison. You might as well make the argument, that a worse day by Pogacar doesn't even register most of the time because he's over the top good, so his bad days are very competetive while his good days, he can hardly be beaten on his terrain. There's also another guy who won the tour the last two years who managed to go for 2 Tours without even the hint of a bad day, and managed to produce his best ever numbers after coming out of the ICU not long ago. You could argue he didn't even have a really bad day either this Tour, he was just not as strong as Pogacar. So why are you worked up only about Pogacar, that's what I don't get.
Not this again... Did you even watch?
In 2022 Pogacar lost due to tactical errors and TJV still needed Roglic and an amazing WVA to beat him.
Last year, Pogacars preparation was hampered because of his wrist injury and he still dropped Vingegaard 3 times up hill. Thanks to his entire team pushing for 2 weeks, he finally cracked. Once.

This year's dominance is the most obscene I've ever seen, so I focus on it. If you want to focus on something else, there are topics you can go to.
Oh yes. I also want Gianetti out of cycling.
 
Not this again... Did you even watch?
In 2022 Pogacar lost due to tactical errors and TJV still needed Roglic and an amazing WVA to beat him.
Last year, Pogacars preparation was hampered because of his wrist injury and he still dropped Vingegaard 3 times up hill. Thanks to his entire team pushing for 2 weeks, he finally cracked. Once.

This year's dominance is the most obscene I've ever seen, so I focus on it. If you want to focus on something else, there are topics you can go to.
Oh yes. I also want Gianetti out of cycling.

Yes I watched, and yes it was hard for them to make him crack, but that kind of included Marie Blanque and especially Combloux. You make it seem like Vingegaard wasn't for two years the better climber and had totally astronomical TTs.
You can ofc focus on Pogacar, by all means, not gonna stop you. It just seems like being angry at a symptom to me, rather than the disease.
As to the he was nowhere before UAE argument:
In 2018, before UAE, he won the Tour de l'Avenir. Also competing was Vingegaard a whopping 41:34 min behind. In this race basically all his peerage from the age group that's competitive today raced.

https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-l-avenir/2018/gc

He wasn't a super dominant junior, but that need not be the case to be dominant at mens level, as in any other sport as well.
 
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If everyone is doped, explain why one guy is crushing everyone all season on all terrain without even having a single bad moment.
People ofcourse decide how they spend their days some do it debating if the earth is flat too.

Noone is doped read it again.

''Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all? Hmmm yeah sure noone is doped just relax with the echocammer and find something else that makes you happy.
I get you you guys here dislike Pogacar caus your fav rider dont win whoever it is, I see the names I remember some quotes haha and you gather here and tell yourself everyone is doped and you feel better from it I get it.

Let me tell you guy what it really is, its called evolution or do you guys believe the nokia people used from 1997 is better than todays Iphone? They even use cognetive AI in different areas within the sport now its so many aspect and areas knowledge just is not comperable, litterally everything so naturally their better this is simply only evolution nothing else. The way they alter their training based on recovery and how much more they can do its all out there.. Mindboggling that you guys think the world stands still. Or maybe not everyone thinks it but just gather here with few fellow minded to feel better I get it and dont take this the wrong way, you all are here cause your fav rider whoever it is isnt winning well most of you anyway. Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it.

Now also the best climbing performance of all time. Pogacar is the best cyclist of all time and have been for a long time its nothing new just enjoy that your able to witness the best that has ever raced the bike is my tip your lucky afterall. In 100 years they wil speak of him in ways its hard to believe, you have the chance to witness him. Your lucky the end.

Remember life is great guys and enjoy it. Best intention do with that as you want cheers''
 
Greetings, fellow miracle non-believers. I have been reading this forum for a few years while being content with my lurker status. The first time I felt a slight urge to register and share my view was right after that miraculous 2020 TDF time trial in which Toddles snatched a sure victory from his Slovenian “big brother”. In the ensuing heated discussion on these pages, as I recall, only one poster mentioned an explanation that I thought was the most likely one: a motorized bike on the flat part changed to a normal one at the base of the climb. As most can recall, the emir’s wonder boy blitzed the flat part beating even the top (at the time) specialist (and a big guy) Tom D., all while looking like a “coal miner” (in the latter’s words) on his bike. Then the future smiley red-nosed bidons-to-young-fans distributer proceeded to annihilate the climb but looked spent at the finish (unlike during his 2024 80km solo forays). So, it appeared that he did a nice warm-up on the flat while caring little about such trifling issues as air resistance at 50+ km/h, the tiny tireless helpers (aka electrons) doing half of the forward propulsion work for him, jumped on his climbing bike and did an honest climb while being fresh. As he is a good climber, the result was predictable, and the “hi-tech” TT bike was safely in a different place.

Stage 8 of 2021 TDF gave the same vibes. It was cold and rainy during that stage which clearly bodes well for cooling of the motor should anyone try some impromptu IR gun on your frame. The next clear “too good to be true” episode came in 2023 Flanders. If one looks at that Kwaremont climb in slow motion, one can see the poor Matt vdP clenching his teeth, his whole body shaking as he tries to put power through the pedals, while Poggo just glides along the cobbles, his propulsive force appearing to be smooth and uniformly circular. And then comes the glorious 2024 with – finally, according to mou – good training plan (not just zone 2 like before, but some intervals sprinkled in, not to forget the more varied carb intake that gives an easy extra 15% as everyone now knows) and – as we have all witnessed – a succession of long solo rides capped with perfectly fresh and rested arrivals (while being occasionally “thirsty”, granted). All this while being on top of a monstrous March to October peak. So, in my view, the real question here is, as many have noted already, not whether Toddly is clean, but whether that doping – and the resulting propulsion – is still of a biological (as opposed to electromagnetic) nature. And at the time I am leaning towards the negative answer to that question. As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

Then, clearly, there are many related questions. Who else is (was) using motors? Was Vingo’s TT in 2023 TDF motor assisted? How did Motopog lose two TDFs to Vingo? Why did Sky (Ineos) suddenly go into oblivion (as they should have enough money to pay for being allowed some li-ion help of their own)? If moto-doping is real, there is clearly the associated hidden politics with large sums of money exchanging hands. In 2024, apparently, emir’s boys were able to negotiate a more liberal partake of electron power. Hence endless reckless attacks with no concern for energy conservation – the battery will be replaced for the next stage anyway. I can only add that it also looks like that the first serious moto-doper was nobody else but the evil redneck Lancy. I recall that his transformation after that cancer, which nearly killed him, was downright miraculous. Specifically, before cancer, the healthy Lance was a typical puncheur in the Phil Gil mold: a relatively heavy guy with a great kick but with no time trial to speak of (especially a long one) and was never thought of as being remotely capable of challenging for a GT GC. There is still a video on the web of Big Mig passing a pre-cancer Lance in a TDF TT. The latter looks like a proverbial still standing figure. Then – after a near-terminal cancer, no less – a miracle happens and Lance begins to walk all over the TT prodigy Jan on a routine basis all while (sounds familiar, doesn’t it) sitting hunched and non-aero on his bike. Same story with high mountain climbing. Then all is well for a decade, America adoring its new hero, but suddenly hell breaks loose, and we learn that Lancy was mean, manipulating and plain sinister. He blatantly doped and forced his teammates – just short of a gun point – to do likewise. Poor souls (and their trembling wives) just had no choice. The whole story just sounded a lot like a typical (i.e. bad) Hollywood movie. Being nailed down, the repentant Lance went on TV shows and shed crocodile tears. Fans with some experience can easily recall the drama. One possible – and quite likely, in my view – explanation for all that is that Lance or someone else involved in the motor program somehow leaked sensitive info or got out of hand, and an urgent cover-up was deemed to be necessary as a motor-dope scandal could – at that time – potentially ruin the whole business. And that good old organic doping related drama was just the required cover-up.

Finally, why did motor doping make such a radical return in 2020, during the gloomy covid times? What was wrong with the good old relatively mild organic doping of a decade ago with its under 6 W/kg performances of the Sky era? Who knows. Maybe the business was struggling and was deemed to be needing some superheros to satisfy the tastes of the new fans of the instagram/tik-tok generation. Maybe the process of its monopolization went far enough so that any dangerous information leaks were no longer possible (as per Chomsky video posted earlier in this thread). We won’t know the correct answer for a while. Does motor doping make professional cycling a version of WWE? It pretty much does. But any professional sport is an entertainment business, the more so with every passing year, it seems. So, if its newer fan base is sufficiently “socially networked” and correspondingly simple minded, this is what it might become.

P.S. As one poster asked recently: if he knows he is a cheater, why is he so arrogant on the road with reckless attacks and inane celebrations. As Dr. Goebbels said a long time ago, a lie must be big and blatant to be believed. So, acting as if you are 100% clean and fully entitled to all those ridiculous nose breathing moped speed performances is the best way to make the (certain kind of) public believe them.

P.P.S. There have recently appeared some humorous “explanations” as to why Toddles is so much faster uphill than the EPO prodigy and born climber sub 60 kilo Pantani. It’s the “modern” bikes, folks, that give the rider so much aero advantage at 24 km/h. Well, if aero is so important at those speeds, and 80% of the aero resistance is due to the rider's body, then Toddly (or his hapless competitors, for that matter) would go faster still if he changed his “coal miner” 45 degrees body to horizontal posture on the bike to a flat back one. Yet he cares little about such angles, just merrily spinning 100+ rpm up any mountain, smiling, his hair nice and dry. Pantani, btw, was famous for climbing standing in the drops – and thus a nearly flat back. So, yeah, it is most likely the bikes, but with a little secret inside.

P.P.P.S. I was also waiting for someone to mention “AI” as one of those “explanations”: “AI is used for training plans, recovery etc..” I did not have high hopes for such a proposal coming, honestly, but recently it did come from one of apologists (and not just AI, but “cognetive AI” which must be really powerful and capable of effecting miracles we are witnessing here). Indeed, how can you live in 2024 without the ubiquitous “AI”. Thank you, sir, for educating us.
 
People ofcourse decide how they spend their days some do it debating if the earth is flat too.

Noone is doped read it again.

''Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all? Hmmm yeah sure noone is doped just relax with the echocammer and find something else that makes you happy.
I get you you guys here dislike Pogacar caus your fav rider dont win whoever it is, I see the names I remember some quotes haha and you gather here and tell yourself everyone is doped and you feel better from it I get it.

Let me tell you guy what it really is, its called evolution or do you guys believe the nokia people used from 1997 is better than todays Iphone? They even use cognetive AI in different areas within the sport now its so many aspect and areas knowledge just is not comperable, litterally everything so naturally their better this is simply only evolution nothing else. The way they alter their training based on recovery and how much more they can do its all out there.. Mindboggling that you guys think the world stands still. Or maybe not everyone thinks it but just gather here with few fellow minded to feel better I get it and dont take this the wrong way, you all are here cause your fav rider whoever it is isnt winning well most of you anyway. Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it.

Now also the best climbing performance of all time. Pogacar is the best cyclist of all time and have been for a long time its nothing new just enjoy that your able to witness the best that has ever raced the bike is my tip your lucky afterall. In 100 years they wil speak of him in ways its hard to believe, you have the chance to witness him. Your lucky the end.

Remember life is great guys and enjoy it. Best intention do with that as you want cheers''
I find this post really funny.

''Everyone is doped and you guys still watch it all?" Actually I don't believe everyone is doped, not at all. There's a reason that a few teams have seen massive bumps in performance this year and everyone else looks like they're going backwards... still pushing the old watts while the richest teams suddenly see 10%+ improvements in just a couple of years.

Cognitive AI increases watts? First, it's called "Generative AI" not "Cognitive AI." Second, do you even know what LLM's do? Ask Chat GPT to build you a training program lolz. I'm sure you'll soon be dominating your local circuit. One of the biggest pitfalls we make as modern people is we look at the people of the past as if they were primitive and unintelligent, and in the case of athletics we say that we train more. The truth is that while we have better knowledge now, the people of the past were just as smart and trained just as hard as now.

Iphones also don't increase your watts, not sure what the argument is here. If you're trying to say we went from Nokia phones to iPhone 15's over night, that's clearly false. it took many years. On the other hand, human performance (not for everyone mind, just a few top riders from a few top teams) has radically improved in just 3 years. Odd, that. Almost like some shady Dr's have had a research breakthrough. Oh wait, they have. Altitude science, aka blood manipulation and using altitude to mask it.

"It's simple evolution nothing else." – The human species doesn't evolve from year to year. I don't think natural selection is taking place ... unless you think mates are now being chosen on the basis of how skinny their arms are and how high their Vo2 is. Seems implausible.

"Thats just my guess and wether or not most of you are ready to admit that or not thats mostly it." Go spend your life savings playing your Lotto Destiny with guesses like that!

"Remember life is great guys and enjoy it." Life actually is a b*** and then you die. That's why we get high (on EPO and Tramadol). This is probably the most absurd claim you made in your entire statement.
 
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