Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Raest]

Then why only Pogacar? Why have a single rider on your team win everything and make it super suspicious? UAE has other incredible riders, but none of them is even close to Poga.

Because he is the best they have. It's simple isn't it? Need I also point out that in 23 A. Yates came 3rd whilst being a domestique? And in 24 he was 6th and Almeida 4th? That's unheard for domestiques.

 

[AmRacer]

Because he is the best they have. It's simple isn't it? Need I also point out that in 23 A. Yates came 3rd whilst being a domestique? And in 24 he was 6th and Almeida 4th? That's unheard for domestiques.

Except for the domestique who did all three GT's in one season with good placings, and won the last one.

 

[Divergence]

That's even worse an analogy than the bodybuilding one. In the 18th and 19th century very few people were educated, there were very few universities, access to said universities was hard and expensive for the vast majority of the population, and in the case of german universities professors were paid by their students, not by the univsersity. Riemann lived and died in extreme poverty because he was not a popular lecturer.

The truth is that many people (certainly as much as aspiring cyclists) had the opportunity to study physical sciences but only the ones with a certain aptitude for it went on to fully develop themselves into scientists. And amongst those there are certain exceptional people such as the ones above.
Regarding Riemann's life (and his quasi contemporaries) there is a very nice book Prime Obsession.

 

[topcat]

The doctors who win all these races rarely get any credit. Ferrari used to be the GOAT but clearly there are some better doctors these days.
Does Pog use a motor?
Does Pog have UCI in the bag and did Jumbo have UCI in the bag last year?
Training/Nutrition, blah blah
The forum hasn't been like this since the Froome days. We'd be close to breaking point except that many of us have been disillusioned for years.

 

[Stablo]

I don't think Pogacar has a clear better program than everyone else and you are trying to sell he is getting a free pass to full dope when others aren't allowed too and that explains this gigantic gap.

Sure and you are entitled for your opinion. I on the other am sure, that they have US Postal 2.0 kind of advantage in the program and the results speak for themself. Like I said earlier this year even looks like there's either a motor or a big upgrade to an old one. Other riders train to have one or two peaks in a season, not Poggie-boy just constant top shape from spring to autumn. Never looking like even breaking a sweat, effortlessly dropping all other very big talents and some 60-100 watts extra every once in a while seem like a plausible explanation.

 

[Ripper]

I really don't know. I know it can't be just because of doping. Redbull Bora and Visma are not behind UAE.
And this year, his new coach made a huge difference. Other thing important to say is: How was Pogacar the best rider in the world and wasn't even doing a lot of things (in training and nutrition) methodically?

However ...

"I know it can't be just because of doping" - But you don't know this, rather, you think/believe it

"Redbull Bora and Visma are not behind UAE" - Again, this is unknown

"his new coach made a huge difference" - that's the narrative that is being sold. It does not mean it is true.

We all have our own sets of assumptions to fill in the gaps. While I don't have inner knowledge about Visma or UAE, I see no reason why UAE could not be ahead. They certainly have the money and an interest in being "the best". EDIT - they also objectively have some of the most corrupt management in the sport. It's hard to paint over that wee blemish

As for narratives that teams or riders themselves try to sell, I just give them a lot of merit. Could be true, could be total BS. May be his new trainer linked him to a better doping scientist 🤔🤣

 

[Salvarani]

So nobody knows and there is no proof of anything. Got it.

 

[Peyroteo94]

However ...

"I know it can't be just because of doping" - But you don't know this, rather, you think/believe it

"Redbull Bora and Visma are not behind UAE" - Again, this is unknown

"his new coach made a huge difference" - that's the narrative that is being sold. It does not mean it is true.

We all have our own sets of assumptions to fill in the gaps. While I don't have inner knowledge about Visma or UAE, I see no reason why UAE could not be ahead. They certainly have the money and an interest in being "the best". EDIT - they also objectively have some of the most corrupt management in the sport. It's hard to paint over that wee blemish

As for narratives that teams or riders themselves try to sell, I just give them a lot of merit. Could be true, could be total BS. May be his new trainer linked him to a better doping scientist 🤔🤣

But this is all assumptions. Do you have any proof he is doping? No you don't...

 

[Casual cyclist]

Because he is the best they have. It's simple isn't it? Need I also point out that in 23 A. Yates came 3rd whilst being a domestique? And in 24 he was 6th and Almeida 4th? That's unheard for domestiques.

I'd just add that, if the magical gains are made with the help of EM propulsion -- and I believe they are, -- he must be not just the best in pure (chemically doped) pedal pushing ability, but also the best in the sense of having the best psychological profile, the most flexible conscience, so to speak. He has to be the one least likely to have qualms and the one able to play happy and keep the swagger up given the true nature of these wins.

 

[Peyroteo94]

So nobody knows and there is no proof of anything. Got it.

TY. All this thread is useless, close it. For him, I am guessing but he knows what is going on. Can't deal with this hyprocrisy...

 

[Stablo]

Wasn't Usain Bolt exactely like that? Or Michael Phelbs?

No one was eve selling a story that they have a superior lactate clearance or other nonsense and that was the explanation to their sudden dominance. And in fact those two dominated way more and earlier than Poggien did as a junior. I also dont believe they were clean either, Phelps especially was suspicious, even thou he has big hands and feel 🤭Bolt for me seems more like he might have been only on the same stuff than other sprinters. He had a clear advantage in height, yet his legs where still as fast as the shorter guys have and that is rare for a tall guy.

 

[Ripper]

But this is all assumptions. Do you have any proof he is doping. No you don't...

Of course it's all assumptions (or at least in most cases). I mean, we think he is doping, yourself included. But there's been no positives we have seen, just in unbelievable performances.

 

[Stablo]

Some are just more natural gifted than others. How is that new. Why I didnt win the Tour. Pogacar is the best talent/ natural gifted since Merckx and even above him, the guy won TDF at age 20. Just enjoy the show.

Geez this just the point, cause he clearly wasn't and still isn't. Before UAE nothing indicated anything else than he might have a good pro career, something like the likes of Bilbao, Mohoric etc etc.
And even if he was the most talented rider ever lol 🤭what is this jump in performance during one winter and at the age of 26. Sure he wasn't training properly before this.

 

[Netserk]

The truth is that many people (certainly as much as aspiring cyclists) had the opportunity to study physical sciences but only the ones with a certain aptitude for it went on to fully develop themselves into scientists. And amongst those there are certain exceptional people such as the ones above.
Regarding Riemann's life (and his quasi contemporaries) there is a very nice book Prime Obsession.

Usually, aptitudes are normally distributed and accomplishments are log-normal. Using outliers of the latter as comparison for the former is foolish.

 

[Netserk]

TY. All this thread is useless, close it. For him, I am guessing but he knows what is going on. Can't deal with this hyprocrisy...

hypocrisy noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of hypocrisy noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Geez this just the point, cause he clearly wasn't and still isn't. Before UAE nothing indicated anything else than he might have a good pro career, something like the likes of Bilbao, Mohoric etc etc.
And even if he was the most talented rider ever lol 🤭what is this jump in performance during one winter and at the age of 26. Sure he wasn't training properly before this.

Pogačar and Mohorič received a lot more hype before they entered the pro peloton than Bilbao and for good reason.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Of course it's all assumptions (or at least in most cases). I mean, we think he is doping, yourself included. But there's been no positives we have seen, just in unbelievable performances.

But I respect your assumptions, why can't you respect mine?

 

[Peyroteo94]

hypocrisy noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of hypocrisy noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

I know what it is and if someone criticizes someone but do exactly the same, it's not hypocrisy?

 

[Ripper]

But I respect your assumptions, why can't you respect mine?

We both agree he dopes. I don't know what assumption you have I don't respect. I don't agree he is simply more talented.

 

[Divergence]

Usually, aptitudes are normally distributed and accomplishments are log-normal. Using outliers of the latter as comparison for the former is foolish.

Hhh. Not only does it seem that you do not understand the topic (otherwise one would never write the first sentence), you do not even try to understand what is it that I said. I was never comparing aptitude and accomplishments. My point is that there indeed are outliers in many endeavors in life, be it mind related or body related. Therefore, I cannot summarily reject the possibility that Pog is clean or, at least, operating within the parameters of the system.
However, there is something strange about him and I will not be at all surprised if ti turns out that he and his team are doing prohibited things.

 

[carolina]

Because he is the best they have. It's simple isn't it? Need I also point out that in 23 A. Yates came 3rd whilst being a domestique? And in 24 he was 6th and Almeida 4th? That's unheard for domestiques.

That's my point. They're all doing the same stuff/on the same program, Pogacar is just way better. What Almeida or Yates did isn't even comparable to Poga's performance this season.

 

[Netserk]

I know what it is and if someone criticizes someone but do exactly the same, it's not hypocrisy?

I have also not seen a clear example of that in this thread. I'll let this rest if you can provide two quotes from the same poster: criticism of a behaviour and an act of said behaviour.

But depending on what the criticism was, it's not necessarily hypocritical to do what one criticises.

 

[Salvarani]

He obviously has to be more talented or he wouldnt be winning in this way or fashion.

He has improved each season and progressed each year. Thats way more believable then crushing everyone at a young age... which I think there are stories about that he actually did in Slovenia as a young kid.

Basing your whole argument around that he wasnt a talent because of fewer wins in juniors against riders from far greater cycling nations and richer backgrounds is not a solid ground to stand on.

He still achieved a lot of great things riding for small clubs in his native country and then developed and grew from finally getting the chance to ride bigger races and against tougher competition. He adapted fast through each season from the juniors to the U23s and in his first pro season, onwards, which actually speaks to the talent that was already there.

I find it way more weird that someone can just change sport and start to crush everybody within a short amount of time. It is not strange to me those guys doesnt live up to the hype and fails when becoming pros. It actually more rare that someone continues to crush, instead of someone who develops and grows into it from working at something all their life.

 

[Stablo]

Some guys are starting to like hating Pogacar. He is such a good kid but they are starting to sell the narrative he is a clown, a hypocrite, a new LA (oh lord, they don't know who was LA). Dylan Van Baarle's accountability after his awful sprint? You are so close to win one of your dream races (Pogacar loves Flanders), 6 hours on the saddle and Van Baarle goes to his right to close the door for Pogacar. He didn't need to do that. Funny how you (@Redrick) criticize Jasper the disaster for his horrendous sprints but here you don't speak about Van Baarle's mistake. Maybe is not Pogacar who is hypocrite

At least im not selling a point that his like Lance as a personality, he seems a bit fake but surely his not an complete a-hole and bully like Pharmastrong was. I'm hating what he and his very dirty backround team are doing to cycling once again. Off course the hypocrisy is there cause of this. I also hate the narrative, that hey at least his public image is positive, so everything is ok, no matter how ridicilous and unbeliavable it is.

 

[Netserk]

Hhh. Not only does it seem that you do not understand the topic (otherwise one would never write the first sentence), you do not even try to understand what is it that I said. I was never comparing aptitude and accomplishments. My point is that there indeed are outliers in many endeavors in life, be it mind related or body related. Therefore, I cannot summarily reject the possibility that Pog is clean or, at least, operating within the parameters of the system.
However, there is something strange about him and I will not be at all surprised if ti turns out that he and his team are doing prohibited things.

Newton being extraordinarily prolific is a measure of accomplishments. Aerobic power is closer to aptitude. The two qualities will be distributed very dissimilarly.