Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

3 straight comments about the performance tells me that it does, in fact, bother you terribly.

I tuned in after watching some live mountain biking and had a few minutes!

On the other hand, you care greatly about adding no value to this thread whatsoever 😉

 

[Red Rick]

It was an alien performance FFS. End of a GT, one of the fastest if not the fastest ever Giro, double ascent, only launched it part way up, and absolutely torched everyone.

There are going to be a lot of "yeah, buts", it for anybody who does the math, it adds up to ultra dodgy poop filled diaper performance.

I'm sorry sir, we're not questioning if it's an ultra dodgy poop filled diaper performance, we're trying to gauge if it's more ultradodgypoopy than all the other ones

Finally, I don't even think performances like this bother me terribly much. The circle jerk of fanboys over any particular doper is, however, perplexing.

The worst is when they get a Nathan van Hooydonck on commentary and get him to tell you how cleanz Pogacar is.

 

[Ripper]

I'm sorry sir, we're not questioning if it's an ultra dodgy poop filled diaper performance, we're trying to gauge if it's more ultradodgypoopy than all the other ones


The worst is when they get a Nathan van Hooydonck on commentary and get him to tell you how cleanz Pogacar is.

That's funny! Nathan was providing some color commentary?

 

[Red Rick]

That's funny! Nathan was providing some color commentary?

Yeah he was on Dutch/Flemish Eurosport first then he moved to UK Eurosport

 

[Ripper]

Yeah he was on Dutch/Flemish Eurosport first then he moved to UK Eurosport

Did he talk about JJ?

 

[Red Rick]

Did he talk about JJ?

About who?

I didn't catch most of his appearance tbh. And I shut it off when the whole Pogi cleanz bs started

 

[Froome]

Double ascent and his team doesn't have enough climbers to put a insane pace for 30 minutes.

Didn't you said today that Emirates team on this race was really good?

 

[Ripper]

About who?

I didn't catch most of his appearance tbh. And I shut it off when the whole Pogi cleanz bs started

JJ = Jonas.

I think that's a professional rider, you need a certain level of cognitive dissonance to cope

 

[Netserk]

Are you really comparing pre-EPO era with peak EPO era?

That's the point.

Like comparing 2014 times and 2024 times.

 

[AmRacer]

one of the fastest if not the fastest ever Giro

When Alpecin and other teams raced like crazy ever stage the first 1-2 hours.....

 

[AmRacer]

That's the point.

Like comparing 2014 times and 2024 times.

Or 1964

 

[Froome]

Are you really comparing pre-EPO era with peak EPO era?

Let me ask you a question....what performance you think was more impressive? The performance today of Pogacar, or the performance of Vingegaard on Tourmalet stage Vuelta 2023?( i'm not gonna even talk about performances in the Tour). Tell me what you think without knowing some data.

Like i said, the level of this Giro was low, and Pogacar did some good performances consistent with what he did in the past years, but i don’t think we saw something outrageous in this Giro.

Everybody is in the "mix", but i didn't saw nothing ridiculous on this Giro, even in W/kg.

 

[AmRacer]

Let me ask you a question....what performance you think was more impressive? The performance today of Pogacar, or the performance of Vingegaard on Tourmalet stage Vuelta 2023?( i'm not gonna even talk about performances in the Tour). Tell me what you think without knowing some data.

Like i said, the level of this Giro was low, and Pogacar did some good performances consistent with what he did in the past years, but i don’t think we saw something outrageous in this Giro.

Everybody is in the "mix", but i didn't saw nothing ridiculous on this Giro, even in W/kg.

Maybe the first ITT when he out climbed everyone?
Today, he started his attack late, fended off fans, had a chat with the last rider he passed, swirled through crowded road.
So no, it wasn't his best and therefore not ridiculous. Although I'm in doubt Poggi is at Jonas level.
At MSR, Mathieu's power must have been ridiculous when he bridged to Tadej.

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe the first ITT when he out climbed everyone?
Today, he started his attack late, fended off fans, had a chat with the last rider he passed, swirled through crowded road.
So no, it wasn't his best and therefore not ridiculous. Although I'm in doubt Poggi is at Jonas level.
At MSR, Mathieu's power must have been ridiculous when he bridged to Tadej.

You mention a few factors that have basically 0 effect.

That said, direct power comparisons, especially of wildly different stages, and especially of estimates, are a terrible predictor of ability. I remember the Tourmalet stage in the Vuelta. That was with a very big tailwind, and Tourmalet is a straight west-east climb.

 

[Froome]

Maybe the first ITT when he out climbed everyone?
Today, he started his attack late, fended off fans, had a chat with the last rider he passed, swirled through crowded road.
So no, it wasn't his best and therefore not ridiculous. Although I'm in doubt Poggi is at Jonas level.

My point was the fact, the competition is really low, resulting in big gaps, is making it seem the perfomances of Pogacar more outrageous than what they are in reality.

The perfomances of Pogacar were really good, but is on par with the perfomances he did in the last years. There's wasn't a improvement by him, and he did a lot of better perfomances in the past than what he did in this Giro.

Talking about the example of the stage Tourmalet 2023, Vingegaard did 6.13 w/kg on Tourmalet, and before he did 5.84 w/kg durin 44 min on Aubisque( almost beating the record) 5.8 w/kg during 31 min on Spandelles, and 6.1 w/kg during 51 min on Tourmalet(where altitude plays a role, not on Grappa). The favourites also spent 15.43 kj/kg/h 3 hours before the beggining of Tourmalet. Hight intensity.

Now today, Pogacar did 6.19 w/kg during 51 minutes, they spent 14 kj/kg/h during 3 hours and half before the beggining of the second ascent Monte grappa. The first ascent of Monte Grappa Pogacar was almost 6 minutes slow than in the first ascent. The fatigue wasn't high.


Now, compare the two stages and tell me what was more impressive. What happened on Tourmalet was less impressive visually, because the GT riders were better than these weak GT riders in the Giro, so Pogacar looked more impressive due to the gaps. Even so, if we look at the data, things are different, even with Vingegaard and other GT riders in the vuelta, not at peak shape like in the Tour.

 

[Froome]

Maybe the first ITT when he out climbed everyone?
Today, he started his attack late, fended off fans, had a chat with the last rider he passed, swirled through crowded road.
So no, it wasn't his best and therefore not ridiculous. Although I'm in doubt Poggi is at Jonas level.
At MSR, Mathieu's power must have been ridiculous when he bridged to Tadej.

Now if we talk about Tour Flandres last year, yeah, right there i think Pogacar perfomance was outrageous.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Keep in mind greedy mouse really did go for it in the second time trial. And just about made it. He was really trying to win as many stages as he could

He would certainly have won more than 6 stages if he wanted the maximum. At least he is not giving away stage 17 to Steinhauser after dsm's hard work.

As for the ITTs, in my opinion, those two stages were the only ones where he was at the limit during the whole Giro. I guess because of the training and data check since Vingegaard has a clear advantage on ITT.

 

[Froome]

He would certainly have won more than 6 stages if he wanted the maximum. At least he is not giving away stage 17 to Steinhauser after dsm's hard work.

As for the ITTs, in my opinion, those two stages were the only ones where he was at the limit during the whole Giro. I guess because of the training and data check since Vingegaard has a clear advantage on ITT.

Depends on the type of TT. The flat TT of the Tour i don't believe Vingegaard has advantage against Pogacar, plus the TT setup of Emirates is really good.

 

[Nick2413]

10 minute GT wins are a bad sign for cycling no matter who shows up.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Depends on the type of TT. The flat TT of the Tour i don't believe Vingegaard has advantage against Pogacar, plus the TT setup of Emirates is really good.

Vingegaard also gave him a solid beating on the flat-ish section during last year's Tour ITT

10 minute GT wins are a bad sign for cycling no matter who shows up.

Vingegaard beat him by more than 7 minutes in the Tour last year.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Let me ask you a question....what performance you think was more impressive? The performance today of Pogacar, or the performance of Vingegaard on Tourmalet stage Vuelta 2023?( i'm not gonna even talk about performances in the Tour). Tell me what you think without knowing some data.

Like i said, the level of this Giro was low, and Pogacar did some good performances consistent with what he did in the past years, but i don’t think we saw something outrageous in this Giro.

Everybody is in the "mix", but i didn't saw nothing ridiculous on this Giro, even in W/kg.

I don't care what the numbers said, Vingegaard's performance on Tourmalet sucked marbles compared to what we saw today.

 

[Ripper]

He would certainly have won more than 6 stages if he wanted the maximum. At least he is not giving away stage 17 to Steinhauser after dsm's hard work.

As for the ITTs, in my opinion, those two stages were the only ones where he was at the limit during the whole Giro. I guess because of the training and data check since Vingegaard has a clear advantage on ITT.

I'm pretty sure you are correct about the ITTs. There may have been stretches of climbs where he was pushing himself hard for a period, but not emptying the tank.

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1794457699419058321

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1794457699419058321

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1794457699419058321

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1794457699419058321

https://twitter.com/x/status/1794413327461802419

View: https://x.com/WattsinCycling/status/1794413327461802419


Big discrepancy between them, normally they have similar results.

Different speeds, someone is wrong.

 

[Rou]

My point was the fact, the competition is really low, resulting in big gaps, is making it seem the perfomances of Pogacar more outrageous than what they are in reality.

The perfomances of Pogacar were really good, but is on par with the perfomances he did in the last years. There's wasn't a improvement by him, and he did a lot of better perfomances in the past than what he did in this Giro.

Talking about the example of the stage Tourmalet 2023, Vingegaard did 6.13 w/kg on Tourmalet, and before he did 5.84 w/kg durin 44 min on Aubisque( almost beating the record) 5.8 w/kg during 31 min on Spandelles, and 6.1 w/kg during 51 min on Tourmalet(where altitude plays a role, not on Grappa). The favourites also spent 15.43 kj/kg/h 3 hours before the beggining of Tourmalet. Hight intensity.

Now today, Pogacar did 6.19 w/kg during 51 minutes, they spent 14 kj/kg/h during 3 hours and half before the beggining of the second ascent Monte grappa. The first ascent of Monte Grappa Pogacar was almost 6 minutes slow than in the first ascent. The fatigue wasn't high.


Now, compare the two stages and tell me what was more impressive. What happened on Tourmalet was less impressive visually, because the GT riders were better than these weak GT riders in the Giro, so Pogacar looked more impressive due to the gaps. Even so, if we look at the data, things are different, even with Vingegaard and other GT riders in the vuelta, not at peak shape like in the Tour.

The Dane produced 6.09 ᵉW/Kg for 50:47. Pogačar pushed 6.19 ᵉW/Kg for 51:42 min and was 57 seconds faster than Quintana in the 2014 time-trial on the same segment. So Pog did more watts for a longer time on a stage deep in the third week. And this is coming from the Visma fanboy Naichaca who imagined a headwind for the Tourmalet stage. The 'great' Cian Uijtdebroeks lost only 38 secs to Jonas. So next time you try to compare efforts please select a better one for the Dane. Maybe Hautacam or Granon.