Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[hrotha]

"The UCI is looking the other way". The UCI isn't looking anywhere at all my man

 

[Salvarani]

I highly doubt he was hurting as much as he wanted to portray he was hurting. He gained 15s in 2km when he pressed on the pedals near the end.

Chase was going hard on the climb and raced against each other.

Then after the climb they was playing cat and mouse again. Hence O´Connor got away etc. They lost time there trying to play against each other.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Most likely is the UCI are looking the other way as they did with Armstrong although I even struggle with that - why, what is the business case for that?

What? Are you genuinely asking where the business case for UCI lies, for having arguably the hottest endurance athlete on the planet right now making historical and spectacular efforts in their races? Isn't that obvious?

Hop on to basically any cycling-related forum and you'll see why: Every blue-eyed aficionado is eating up this narrative that Pogi is the second coming of Christ on a bike. People absolutely love what they're seeing and we, who are questioning it, are frankly an absolute fraction of a minority in the grand scheme of things. He is the all-devouring darling of the majority of viewers around the world.

The majority of people would very, very clearly rather watch Pogi annihilate the peloton than watch Toms Skujins win a close race. Pogi is their new cash cow and as long as people are willingly naive enough to accept what they're seeing on a surface level there are no incentives for UCI to actually be critical. Right now, Pogi is simply bringing a ton of attention, and by extension money, to the sport.

That's the very obvious business case.

 

[Zen Master]

Nice insult to compare Tadej Pogacar with Riccardo Riccò. Are you serious? For all his blatant cheating Riccò was nothing special anyway, he disappeared as fast as he appeared out of nowhere.

Really...!?! So being second overall at the Giro behind the best rider in the entire world, as Contador undoubtedly was at the time, is "nothing special". Il Cobra Ricco even had a chance to win the Giro that year, but alas, he didn't know that you can be much better if you just ride the bike without a computer or power meter...

As Pogačar did in stage 20 TDF 2020 when he smashed Roglic and everyone else up Planche des Belles Filles, and won the Tour despite being almost a minute behind Roglič before that ITT…

By the way, how exactly did il Cobra Ricco disappear if I may ask..?!

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Nice insult to compare Tadej Pogacar with Riccardo Riccò. Are you serious? For all his blatant cheating Riccò was nothing special anyway, he disappeared as fast as he appeared out of nowhere. Cadel Evans never took Riccò seriously in 2008 and I sure as hell would never put Cadel in the same universe as Pogacar.

This is nonsense. In Riccò's neo pro-season, he was competitive in punchy finishes against some of the best puncheurs in the world and showed some unbelievable speed in the sprints. He beat Bettini in Coppi e Bartali. In Tirreno, he finished third twice behind superstars like Freire, Astarloa, and Petacchi. In California, he finished second on a stage only beaten by Olaf Pollack. He finished that season off by placing fifth in Giro dell'Emilia, only 15 seconds down on Rebellin and Di Luca. And this was his first season as a pro.

In his second season, he finished sixth in the Giro and was competitive against Rebellin, Di Luca, and El Bala in the Ardennes. It's just absolutely not true that Riccò was "nothing special." Riccò didn't appear out of nowhere in 2008, he was really great out of the gates as a pro much like, well, Pogi.

 

[Zen Master]

No need to name call.

Can we then agree on some undeniable facts? So if Pogačar is the "greatest" rider to ever race a bike, then the "greatest" victory in a cycling race ever is, of course, the 17th stage of the Tour de France in 2006, when Floyd Landis launched a 120km solo attack and won the stage with five categorized climbs by almost six minutes ...

Am I right...?!

 

[Fantastico]

This guy has participated in 9 races this year of which he won 7, with the only exceptions being San Remo (3rd) and Québec (7th) that ended in mass sprints.

He won the Giro (including 6 stages), the Tour (including 6 stages) and the WC.

Of his 55 race days this year, he finished 1st on 20 (~36%) and podiumed on 27 (~49%).

There was not one single time he was distanced by any of his rivals in a meaningful way (the only time he actually lost time to one of them was stage 17 in the Tour where Evenepoel gained 10 seconds on him, and I think he didn't even care).

He scored 4188 PCS points which already improves his previous record by 23%, and his season is not even over yet (the last 3 years he scored an additional 300-500 points after the WC). He has more than double the points of the 4th (Marc Hirschi) and outscores the 2nd (Remco Evenepoel) by 1499 points.

He is only the 2nd rider since 1990 to score more than 4000 points. He consistently scores more than 3000 points, which since 1990 has only been achieved in the pre-Festina EPO era of the 90s (Jalabert, Rominger, Fondriest, Chiappucci) or in absolutely career-defining years by riders (Sagan, Gilbert, Valverde) who also give rise to a lot of doubt and suspicion.

1. Jalabert 4863, 1995
2. Pogacar 4188, 2024
3. Fondriest 3821, 1993
4. Jalabert 3460, 1997
5. Rominger 3453, 1993
6. Pogacar 3413, 2022
7. Sagan 3315, 2016
8. Pogacar 3309, 2023
9. Pogacar 3305, 2021
10. Rominger 3063, 1992
11. Gilbert 3031, 2011
12. Valverde 3022, 2015
13. Chiappucci 3001, 1993

He is basically unbeatable this year and wins races at will. And he not only wins them, he often completely crushes the competition with longe-range attacks.

And still, it seems like no-one (especially in the media) really gives a sh*t.

Edit: If you are not a fan of the PCS point system, he also almost doubles the points of the 2nd (Evenepoel) in the UCI rankings, both overall and for this season.

 

[Froome]

Can we then agree on some undeniable facts? So if Pogačar is the "greatest" rider to ever race a bike, then the "greatest" victory in a cycling race ever is, of course, the 17th stage of the Tour de France in 2006, when Floyd Landis launched a 120km solo attack and won the stage with five categorized climbs by almost six minutes ...

Am I right...?!

Armstrong and Landis would had done the same thing they did in the past, in this era, and they wouldn't get caught this time.

What a unlucky guys.

 

[Cassirer]

Honest question to his fans who are not just trolling, genuine interest and not meant as an insult to anyone: What is your position on the oil money gianetti matxin background?
Leave me alone with all this I just wanna watch cycling? (nothing too wrong with that, all cycling/sport fans have to do it to some degree I guess)
Some version of everybody or at least 3-4 big teams are doing roughly the same amount of bad stuff and you really believe the sum of talent+new coach+porridge can account for the gap to everybody else? (hard to see for me, although that at least seems to be @Salvarani 's take?)
Or how do you come to terms with it? Sorry for seeming sour, its just hard for me to get how he with this background gets so many hardcore fans among people with real knowledge of the cycling world worshipping his feats in all seriousness (maybe it isn't serious and I'm falling for trolls).

 

[Salvarani]

Honest question to his fans who are not just trolling, genuine interest and not meant as an insult to anyone: What is your position on the oil money gianetti matxin background?
Leave me alone with all this I just wanna watch cycling? (nothing too wrong with that, all cycling/sport fans have to do it to some degree I guess)
Some version of everybody or at least 3-4 big teams are doing roughly the same amount of bad stuff and you really believe the sum of talent+new coach+porridge can account for the gap to everybody else? (hard to see for me, although that at least seems to be @Salvarani 's take?)
Or how do you come to terms with it?

You have no idea what I believe. Good to know you think about me so much though.

 

[Cassirer]

You have no idea what I believe. Good to know you think about me so much though.

Sorry if this is offending, did not want to put words in your mouth, you just have been the most vocal in this thread among the more die hard fans that's why I picked you as an example

 

[Salvarani]

Sorry if this is offending, did not want to put words in your mouth, you just have been the most vocal in this thread among the more die hard fans that's why I picked you as an example

I only argued that he indeed has had many results and was a talent on the rise early on, he didnt come from nowhere, who was taking great steps through each one of his formative years. You have to account for his humble beginnnigs and coming from a small cycling country. Everybody who does not have their own agenda will acknowledge that.

 

[E_F_]

Armstrong or Froome

Two of the weirdest possible career trajectories.

 

[Raest]

Two of the weirdest possible career trajectories.

To be fair Pogacar's career trajectory, was perfectly believable up to the La Planche des Belles Filles ITT. You can argue about him being exceptional or merely very good as a junior but he was much better and more consistent that Armstrong and Froome. That ITT was extraordinary but somehow people have overlooked it though IMO it was as "exceptional" a performance as Vingegaard's in the infamous Combloux ITT. Pogacar was lauded for it, Vingegaard was vilified, (rightly so). He should be handing out sunglasses to kids too perhaps.
But in any case till this year, his performance was (barely) believable. Now it's just farcical.
Edit: And I still kind of like him.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Can we then agree on some undeniable facts? So if Pogačar is the "greatest" rider to ever race a bike, then the "greatest" victory in a cycling race ever is, of course, the 17th stage of the Tour de France in 2006, when Floyd Landis launched a 120km solo attack and won the stage with five categorized climbs by almost six minutes ...

Am I right...?!

Hands down the greatest stage I've ever witnessed. Remember coming home from school and putting it on and my jaw hitting the floor.

 

[E_F_]

To be fair Pogacar's career trajectory, was perfectly believable

Yeah, I agree. It was just a bit counter-productive using those two as examples of how strange career trajectories aren't actually suspicious.

 

[ppanther92]

He also won the Giro di lunigiana, one of the most prestigious races, at the juniors (2016), but not in an overly impressive way. Pogačar was a good junior, but there are good juniors every year.

I think his most remarkable showings were the Tour of Slovenia 2017 and 2018 before Avenir, dropping seasoned WT climbers as a child (google photos from those years, he certainly was no early bloomer in bodily development).

And he obviously was still a junior technically when finished the Vuelta on podium and won his first TdF. But no sense to keep in the junior ranks if you are already that good.

So considering his body development being rather on the late side, and him cutting junior career shorter than others (Mäder, Vlasov, Almeida, Dunbar were all 20-22 in his Avenir win, so older) since he was already very good, I think its safe to say that he was a very good prospect.

Predicting what he does now, was impossible though. But I already made the argument here once - it would have been even impossible to predict that Merckx would be Merckx only on junior results. At 19 (1964) and 20 (1965), he had some good results but also nothing indicating that he would become what he did.

 

[E_F_]

I think his most remarkable showings were the Tour of Slovenia 2017 and 2018 before Avenir, dropping seasoned WT climbers as a child (google photos from those years, he certainly was no early bloomer in bodily development).

I think this is fair. I guess I didn't look too carefully at the categories of the races he did, when looking over his PCS page...

 

[ontheroad]

The scandalous thing is that the journos are so passive. Gianetti-Matxin are running the show and all we hear are crickets. Where are the Paul Kimmages and David Walshes of today's journalism? It's shocking.

Walsh had a personal vendetta against Armstrong, it was nothing to do with an anti doping crusade as events since then have corroborated.

 

[E_F_]

Walsh had a personal vendetta against Armstrong, it was nothing to do with an anti doping crusade as events since then have corroborated.

If so (not arguing for or against) then that was surely initiated by Armstrong, rather than Walsh. Another example of his (probable) sociopathy being his own undoing - yet also the key to his "success".

 

[ontheroad]

The inevitable consequence of Pogacars dominance this year is that other teams will spend the winter trying to find the magic cocktail to close the gap. Every year since 2020 the level has been ramped up another notch, so next season should see even faster times as the nutrition, equipment and training methods continue to evolve and improve.

 

[ontheroad]

If so (not arguing for or against) then that was surely initiated by Armstrong, rather than Walsh. Another example of his (probable) sociopathy being his own undoing - yet also the key to his "success".

It was indeed but the point I was making is that Walsh did not opt to take Armstrong down because of any great anti doping crusade.

He was driven to obsession after Armstrong referenced his son who was tragically killed in a bike accident. After that Walsh was like a dog with a bone.

 

[E_F_]

It was indeed but the point I was making is that Walsh did not opt to take Armstrong down because of any great anti doping crusade.

He was driven to obsession after Armstrong referenced his son who was tragically killed in a bike accident. After that Walsh was like a dog with a bone.

Yeah, I got that, and I think you may well be right about Walsh not being on a crusade, though his version of the story is that he had suspicions from the start. And also it should be noted that Walsh had to ask questions for Armstrong to have any reason to go full psycho.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

And he obviously was still a junior technically when finished the Vuelta on podium and won his first TdF. But no sense to keep in the junior ranks if you are already that good.

How was he technically a junior in those years? I don't think they've been lying about his age.

 

[ppanther92]

How was he technically a junior in those years? I don't think they've been lying about his age.

He could have started Avenir in 2020.