Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

Don't be so pessimistic. Remco was great - again. He's had his best ever season. Take a way Pog and we would be lauding Remco.

Great again? He lost three minutes against the homunculus. He was nowhere near even competative in all their confrontations. It's like Verrocchio never taking up the brush again, when he saw what Leonardo could do. The huge problem now is for Belgium and Lafevbre. Money is scarce and who wants to keep paying a champion's salary to a loser, who shall never win against the homunculus.

 

[Extinction]

By winning L'Avenir and other races as an 18 yo? He's hardly a donkey to racehorse story, more like a Pantani style perfect storm of insane amounts of talent, dope, and ability to respond to that dope.

He was a few days shy of 20 when he won Avenir

 

[PolkaDot1]

So another totally sickening day, with Pog killing the enjoyment in yet another beautifull race, which has become the norm this year. The silver lining, well at least it is over for some time.

What I want to point out is his newly founded speed on the flats this season. He does not just make the gap on the climb and hold it towards the line. No, he is putting masive time into his opponents on the flat while previously detonating the watt bombs on the climbs. Today, he put over a minute into Remco on that last part, i.e. the TT world and olympic champ, rider who excells in this type of efforts. And he did not kill himself trying to follow Pog, he just rode his race, so he could not have been possibly that spent. And as goes for Pog, it did not even seem he was trying that hard. He looked relax and I am certain he could have gone faster if neccessary. It is truly bizzare, especially when you take into account Pog's not really that aero position. While you see many riders really trying to lower the CdA, tucking extremelly low, twisting the handlebars to achieve as TT-like position etc. he is not even trying... I am more and more inclined to believe there might be something in the "mechanically-assisted" department. It would for sure made a lot of sense.

 

[Ripper]

Exactly. It's been just like that all year. So he either has 100+ (big plus) VO2 max or his means of propulsion is of some other nature than purely biological.

It was really interesting. He was smoking along, looking very untroubled and easy going, like he was full on just riding a tempo ride. I know that feeling very well. Smirks and says something to the moto/camera-person. And is putting time into everyone, including the world's supposedly best time trialist.

I mean, I know I am old and no longer racing elite, and was never a pro, but I'd settle for him looking like there is some level of physical effort going on. You know, breathing harder, possibly some sweat dripping, potentially some accessory muscles being used because of the higher effort levels, etc.

Nope

 

[topt]

One of the most succesfull season in cycling history, beating climbing records day in day out, winning races with historical solo breakaways as it was usual... and everything with Gianetti and Matxin behind close doors.

I wrote a message during last Tour about Matxin: this is his "modus operandi" and he is not going to stop. This time they are not in a random team like Saunier Duval, they are under the protection of a massive sponsor which is investing a lot of money to be the best and that's what are they doing, just being men o a mission.

I have to recognize that I don't watch a race where Pogaçar is involved since mid Tour de France. It is so obvious what is going to happen that I don't want to get frustated. I have been cycling fan since I was a kid and I never had the felling of being wasting my time watching a WWF show.

P.D.: I do believe in electronic or motor doping, just take the example of Foliforov in the Giro 2016 ITT.

yet you have no problem watching Jonas win, interesting

 

[Casual cyclist]

Who is "they" and why aren't they keeping up with Pogačar?

Easy. Toddy's bike has been given a big motor this year accompanied by a carte blanche for its unlimited use. His chasers, on the other hand, have had to endure either a motor-free spell or get by with relatively token motors with limited use authorization. Appears to be part of the "Smiley, kids-loving superman" scenario played out by the "Pro-cycling Inc." entertainment industry company geared towards "generating excitement, expanding fan base,... blah-blah" goal. Likely fueled by some healthy cash transfers from UAE to governing bodies.

 

[Ripper]

As for UAE and talent identification and recruitment, I suspect they just recruit talented riders and got luckier with pogger compared to, say, ayuso (at least so far). Response to whatever is going on is not a known beforehand.

The only thing I could envision that might be more in the territory of conspiracies and weirdness is that perhaps Matxin and Gianetti have a way of screening the moral ethics of riders so they know who might be more willing to try somethin' a little different

Just sayin'

 

[GuntherL1]

Yes, it's also true for almost any cyclist at his peak vs his 19 yo version though.

Really? Evenepoel, Van der Poel, Uijtdebroeks, Kämna (2nd junior year)

 

[Casual cyclist]

So another totally sickening day, with Pog killing the enjoyment in yet another beautifull race, which has become the norm this year. The silver lining, well at least it is over for some time.

What I want to point out is his newly founded speed on the flats this season. He does not just make the gap on the climb and hold it towards the line. No, he is putting masive time into his opponents on the flat while previously detonating the watt bombs on the climbs. Today, he put over a minute into Remco on that last part, i.e. the TT world and olympic champ, rider who excells in this type of efforts. And he did not kill himself trying to follow Pog, he just rode his race, so he could not have been possibly that spent. And as goes for Pog, it did not even seem he was trying that hard. He looked relax and I am certain he could have gone faster if neccessary. It is truly bizzare, especially when you take into account Pog's not really that aero position.

The famous "coal miner" position first noted by the incredulous Tom D. at TDF 2020 final TT. And in "zone 2" while in the said position running away from top time trialists.

While you see many riders really trying to lower the CdA, tucking extremelly low, twisting the handlebars to achieve as TT-like position etc. he is not even trying... I am more and more inclined to believe there might be something in the "mechanically-assisted" department. It would for sure made a lot of sense.

That's the power output for ya... Overcoming even the "barn door" aerodynamics (think Dodge Durango Hellcat), not even stressing his biological engine while putting out those 600 watts or so. But, if half of those come from the aforementioned "mechanically-assisted" means, it all starts making perfect sense, doesn't it?

 

[Amazinmets87]

Pog is nearly two years younger than Lance was when he won his first TDF. This could go on a long, long time.

 

[solo80k]

When we check overall wins only, in 2024 Pogacar was successful in 9 out of 11 races, with 3rd place in MSR and 7th in Montreal as the weakest results.

Whatever he's using, it's possible to use it all season long, peaking multiple times at his will. To be honest, he's body changed a little - he's more muscled-up now. His core training needs to be excellent as well- he's not swinging on the bike.

 

[Blanco]

Too good to be true...,

 

[Amazinmets87]

When we check overall wins only, in 2024 Pogacar was successful in 9 out of 11 races, with 3rd place in MSR and 7th in Montreal as the weakest results.

Whatever he's using, it's possible to use it all season long, peaking multiple times at his will. To be honest, he's body changed a little - he's more muscled-up now. His core training needs to be excellent as well- he's not swinging on the bike.

Yea, I noticed that about his physique. He doesn't look freakishly thin as many pro cyclists do. He looks like a relatively thin man with defined muscles.

 

[Fos]

Why race with motor aid and raise questions day after day with outrageous performances? I think it would be better to use it at very specific times to avoid suspicion...

I rule out biological doping because Tadej would already be dead since he is always at his best, and not just 3 weeks in a year.

 

[peterfin]

Why race with motor aid and raise questions day after day with outrageous performances? I think it would be better to use it at very specific times to avoid suspicion...

I rule out biological doping because Tadej would already be dead since he is always at his best, and not just 3 weeks in a year.

They don't care about being suspicious. They are not really challenged sofar. The story of 'Pogacar, the greatest talent in cycling ever' is good enough to keep the media and the masses exited.

 

[Casual cyclist]

When we check overall wins only, in 2024 Pogacar was successful in 9 out of 11 races, with 3rd place in MSR and 7th in Montreal as the weakest results.

Whatever he's using, it's possible to use it all season long, peaking multiple times at his will. To be honest, he's body changed a little - he's more muscled-up now. His core training needs to be excellent as well- he's not swinging on the bike.

Or, that could be just the result of not pushing on those pedals all that hard. Which -- surprise, surprise -- aligns well with him not breathing hard and joking with camera folks while on an "extraterrestrial" attack nobody else can follow.

 

[peterfin]

It's good that this boring season is over. Lets see what they develop next year and who made the best updates to the system. It's like watching a parody on Drive to Survive. Anyway, I am not taking risks. I am going to start zone 2 training this winter.

 

[Gratemans]

It's good that this boring season is over. Lets see what they develop next year and who made the best updates to the system. It's like watching a parody on Drive to Survive. Anyway, I am not taking risks. I am going to start zone 2 training this winter.

I was going to type the exact same thing: I'm just glad this season is over.
Jeesh, at least with Lance there was an ever-so-tiny bit of doubt at the back of my mind. Here? None whatsoever.

 

[E_F_]

It's good that this boring season is over. Lets see what they develop next year and who made the best updates to the system. It's like watching a parody on Drive to Survive. Anyway, I am not taking risks. I am going to start zone 2 training this winter.

Remember to eat lots and lots of sugar as well!

How do you make sure to stay in zone 2? Ride an e-bike.

 

[repoman]

Remco, TT World Champion puts in 2 min on chase group by destroying himself, meanwhile, Pog puts in 2 min on Remco by breathing out of his nose

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Do any Pog fans actually think he's clean? I'm referring to the main forums here and the rest of the internet. Because I don't mind if someone just enjoys the show and has a laugh about the absurdity of the performances. fair enough, c'est un 'entertainment', after all. But if there's actually people out there who think this guy is riding around cleanz because he cares for his health or something and only other riders dope... oh boy.

I'm absolutely sure these people exist. I shared a guardian article the other day by Jonathan Liew from after the WC. He basically argues that, yeah you can ask questions, you can even go down the rabbit hole of all the details on climbing times, watts per kilogram etc., but still come out of there an decide for yourself: yes, he is clean! It's the nicer reality to live in.

So if he can convince himself of that after he read enough details and arguments, who is gonna stop someone who is oblivious to any of this from believing he is clean?

Also: don't we live in the "cleanest" era of the sport, by positive tests standards? So how can he be doped?

That the jump in performance doesn't make sense, that the pure numbers don't make sense by standards once believed to be the limits of possible performance, that history teaches us some lessons and that EPO records are being broken. Only one thing, the records, will reach anyone who doesn't asks the question to begin with. But there are ready made answers for this: better nutrition, better training methods, better equipment. Doesn't matter that these are the same answers that were already given in Lances days (and probably before as well). What they achieve is that there is alsways an aesthetically and morally more pleasant narrative that is being supported by facts (there's some developement in all of these aspects always) and by being held up by the cheerleaders.

I think a view from the clinic is a very warped view of how Pogacar is perceived generally. Outside of cycling fan cycles I've hardly read any comments by anyone asking questions. And if it happened these questions were dismissed by others by the standard narrative (better science, better food, better tech).

It's also not very likely that the UCI will do anything about it any more, or the teams, because the lesson learned from last time was - and I am pretty convinced this is the case - that it's just not worth it. You can fight doping, maybe even effectively for a while, untill new products come in and the race starts anew. But you will only be punished for it as a buisness and as a sport, without any material reward what so ever.

So this might be the new normal for a long time, just like Sky was in it's dull and terrorizing, yet not as absurdly dominant, way.

 

[Gratemans]

You know, whenever there's a new talented rider hitting the scene I'm excited. I remember being very excited when Pog had his breakthrough.
But at a certain point, there's a crossroads. When performances cross a certain threshold (which understandibly is different for each of us), you either continue to support him, or you start asking some questions. Now I'm already wayyy beyond that point. But even if I weren't, I certainly wouldnt be posting in his thread dozens of times a day, repeating over and over how great and almighty he is. It's almost as if people feel the need to shout their praises louder and louder just to supress their own doubts. It's like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "GOAT GOAT GOAT!".

Ugh. I'm just glad the season is over. And I'll be honest: I'm not particularly looking forward to 2025 either. But I've been at it this long, I'll probably be watching again anyway.

 

[Nick2413]

The reality is most fans are casual fans and most casual fans just believe what they’re told, which is somewhat understandable. For the casual fan putting on the Tour de France or chatting about it in the break room at work, there might be a quick “hmm I wonder if these guys are doping like back in the Lance Armstrong days..?” then when the commentators remind them we’re not in the past anymore and everyone is clean now, they continue watching and forget about it.

 

[ashhutch1997]

He has done it again.

Dracula Gianetti

 

[Casual cyclist]

I'm absolutely sure these people exist. I shared a guardian article the other day by Jonathan Liew from after the WC. He basically argues that, yeah you can ask questions, you can even go down the rabbit hole of all the details on climbing times, watts per kilogram etc., but still come out of there an decide for yourself: yes, he is clean! It's the nicer reality to live in.

So if he can convince himself of that after he read enough details and arguments, who is gonna stop someone who is oblivious to any of this from believing he is clean?

Also: don't we live in the "cleanest" era of the sport, by positive tests standards? So how can he be doped?

That the jump in performance doesn't make sense, that the pure numbers don't make sense by standards once believed to be the limits of possible performance, that history teaches us some lessons and that EPO records are being broken. Only one thing, the records, will reach anyone who doesn't aks the question to begin with, that's the records. But there are ready made answers for this: better nutrition, better training methods, better equipment. Doesn't matter that these are the same answers that were already given in Lances days (and probably before as well). What they achieve is that there is alsways an aesthetically and morally more pleasant narrative that is being supported by facts (there's some developement in all of these aspects always) and by being held up by the cheerleaders.

I think a view from the clinic is a very warped view of how Pogacar is perceived generally. Outside of cycling fan cycles I've hardly read any comments by anyone asking questions. And if it happened these questions were dismissed by others by the standard narrative (better science, better food, better tech).

It's also not very likely that the UCI will do anything about it any more, or the teams, because the lesson learned from last time was - and I am pretty convinced this is the case - that it's just not worth it. You can fight doping, maybe even effectively for a while, untill new products come in and the race starts anew. But you will only be punished for it as a buisness and as a sport, without any material reward what so ever.

So this might be the new normal for a long time, just like Sky was in it's dull and terrorizing, yet not as absurdly dominant, way.

These people surely exist, especially in the new crop of fans. That Jonathan fellow though is a professional sports writer who is going to "argue" anything he is currently paid to argue. Does not mean he believes it. Most likely, he just does not care all that much where the objective truth lies. If his employers' expectations change, he will argue the opposite point of view without flinching.