Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[topt]

When I comment, I express an opinion and one which I hope is an informed one. I don't attack people personally, but I might express a different opinion to them. When I comment I also give reasons for it. I use my understanding of the sport after 50 years of watching and following it, of what I see with my own eyes, of human nature, of human sporting performance, and also historical precedent. And when I do that and I look at Pogacar and also (and this is a crucial part of the puzzle), his association with Gianetti, I don't believe what I'm seeing is real. If you feel differently, good for you.

its not but hey attacks on riders are allowed here while "posters" are protected like white tigers.

 

[Raest]

its not but hey attacks on riders are allowed here while "posters" are protected like white tigers.

That's the point of the thread, to discuss whether we think some riders may be doping. A justification is useful but not necessary. If this annoys you then perhaps this is not the thread for you.

 

[masking_agent]

Gotta give it them, they still have the winning undetectable substance for 2025.

 

[topt]

That's the point of the thread, to discuss whether we think some riders may be doping. A justification is useful but not necessary. If this annoys you then perhaps this is not the thread for you.

thats is not what this thread is for; there is no discussions, its only accusations, calling Pogacar crook and so on....yeah it annoys me but that is the reason I stay

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

He signed for UAE in August 2018 after having won Tour de l'Avenir

Really? Tour de l'Avenir finished on the 26th of August and the announcement was made in the press on July 31st.

Tadej Pogačar verbindt toekomst aan UAE Emirates

UAE Emirates is erin geslaagd om toptalent Tadej Pogačar vast te leggen voor 2019, weet WielerFlits. De Sloveen viert op 21 september pas zijn twintigste verjaardag, maar de jongeling bulkt van het talent. Samen met Robert Stannard en Jasper Philipsen, hoort de renner van Ljubljana-Gusto-Xaurum op

www.wielerflits.be

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

thats is not what this thread is for; there is no discussions, its only accusations, calling Pogacar crook and so on....yeah it annoys me but that is the reason I stay

There's plenty of discussion, but most people here think Pogacar is not playing fair. You'll find a similar phenonmenon in clinic pages for other riders.
As I'm in favour of free speech, you're welcome to continue posting here.

 

[Raest]

thats is not what this thread is for; there is no discussions, its only accusations, calling Pogacar crook and so on....yeah it annoys me but that is the reason I stay

There have been plenty of discussions we even had two phds arguing over the finer points of uphill power production and estimation, there are 420 pages though in the thread there is little one can add in terms of arguments at this point, only reaffirm conclusions reached when new evidence is provided. Which is pretty much whenever UAE race.

 

[DONCA]

every winning bike goes in to X ray, wont matter to some posters here, so why we even bother with reality

Thats what the UCI is claiming but what they really do is another thing as we could see at the giro 2023. They claimed to check every bike. Despite claiming that they test at every mens and womens worldtour race, the uci testing is highly inconsistent, something that some journalist exposed. At the giro they didn´t test a single bike in the first two time trials despite saying so. in the vuelta the x-ray machine wasn´t use until the final week.

The UCI can claim many things, but unfortunately this does not always correspond to the facts, as we have seen in this example.

Furthermore, one should also ask oneself whether the UCI would really be interested in finding a motor in pogacars bike. The star of the uci business. Would you seriously risk a scandal if you were making money from cycling? That would be just as stupid as scoring an own goal. Do you want to mess with the best and richest team that organizes UCI races? History has also shown us that the UCI likes to protect riders like Armstrong.

And then there is the technical part. As with almost any kind of cheating or doping, the detection methods always lag a few years behind the cheating itself. But even if you could, you still have to ask yourself whether you are interested in finding anything at all

I'm still waiting for logical answers as to how a lightweight like Tadej Motorcar can keep up with 500w FTP riders even on flat races.

I'm still waiting for a logical explanation as to how, for example, in the 2022 Tirreno Adriatico time trial, Pogacar finished third behind Ganna and Evenepoel, even though the live watt figures only showed an average of 320w and even the Dutch commentator had no explanation. He was in the red for 2% of the race whereas Ganna was 86% in the red and averaged 530watts. How can it be that Pogacar finished third and was only 17 seconds slower than Ganna despite being only 2% in the red?

And does anyone here really think it's a coincidence that he didn't use a power meter for his alien performance on La Planche des Belles Filles 2021? I think every cycling fan remembers the shock and amazement they felt when Pogacar made the other riders look like little kids. Tom Dumoulin (second with 1:21 up on pogacar), made some comments afterwards that could be interpreted to mean that something wasn't quite right: “My performance was similar to my world championship, so his performance must be out of this world”, "I'm coming second to a rider who sits on his bike like a mountain man. I just don't understand how that's possible“, ”Pogacar had something special today".

Well, it takes something special to create things that the human body cannot naturally create. It takes something special to be the only rider not to arrive at the finish line tired, even though everyone else is destroyed.

 

[bah]

thats is not what this thread is for; there is no discussions, its only accusations, calling Pogacar crook and so on....yeah it annoys me but that is the reason I stay

as far as I'm aware that is the point of this thread...one can't raise these issues in the main forums; what would the point of this thread be otherwise?

 

[Cookster15]

PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.

Agree motor use is unlikely but not sure about this. Oxygen vector doping isn't cheap to avoid detection. Plus safe and effective use of PEDs without getting caught is generally expensive - doctors etc. Not sure any pro blood dopes these days without strict medical supervision. The cowboy days of early EPO use when some riders reportedly died in their sleep are now thankfully in the past.

Since the EPO test and UCI biological passport introduction blood manipulation is more difficult and not cheap.

Plus 'substances' (PEDs) are generally detectable, if not immediately in blood and urine, then certainly via retrospective testing riders and teams run a risk using "undetectable" substances.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, it takes something special to create things that the human body cannot naturally create. It takes something special to be the only rider not to arrive at the finish line tired, even though everyone else is destroyed.

But he did look tired on La Planche des Belles Filles? He collapsed on the ground after the finish.

And does anyone here really think it's a coincidence that he didn't use a power meter for his alien performance on La Planche des Belles Filles 2021?

It was 2020 not 2021. And no I don't think lack of a power meter is relevant.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Already getting the popcorn ready for motor allegations and the likes tomorrow

 

[fenns]

it's TUEs

 

[Notarobot]

Pogacar will attack from the foot of the climb (and we know how that ends every time) and somehow will smash everybody. I'm thinking 5+ minutes on the number 2 today.

To the people who don't believe in the possibility pro's are using motor assisted bikes, it happened in cyclocross as we know. Traditionally there's less money in cyclocross, it wasn't even that big of a team, and still they pulled it of for who know's how many races? Yeah yeah they say it was only used in one race and that was on accident (lol), but who believes that. Now imagine it is years later, the richest team in the world, backed by UAE money and moral, Gianetti, Matxin. It is not that unbelievable i think.

 

[Shakes]

Might regret this in 10 years but I think all comments about motors are just ridiculing this whole forum. Makes this the place for tin foil hats. Easy to brush of all 'clinic' as a result as the place of conspiracy moon landing rejecting fools.

History, other sports and common sense all dictate peds are most common explanation. See the flare up regarding 'clean sky' era and how that lead to 'clean generation' now.

 

[Cassirer]

Might regret this in 10 years but I think all comments about motors are just ridiculing this whole forum. Makes this the place for tin foil hats. Easy to brush of all 'clinic' as a result as the place of conspiracy moon landing rejecting fools.

History, other sports and common sense all dictate peds are most common explanation. See the flare up regarding 'clean sky' era and how that lead to 'clean generation' now.

I agree that the other stuff is more likely than motors, however I don't think motors is as flat earthish as "just the most talented guy we ever saw" considering our sports history and what is known of the environment he rides in.

 

[DONCA]

Comments about motors are ridiculing this forum?

Thats why even the UCI President David Lappartient said, that it is still a thing and that the UCI needs better controls?

Thats why the UCI started the “UCI Policy – ‘Fight against Technological Fraud’ Rewards Programme”.?
Because it´s not a thing and because it´s conspiracy?

Motor doping has nothing to do with conspiracy. Motors have already been found, how can you still talk about conspiracy? Motor doping is real, we don´t know how real but it is a problem. Otherwise, the UCI President would hardly say so.

Of course it seems crazy, but to pretend that it is not real is simply wrong.
Insiders and professionals do not express their concerns for fun and with a little respect they should be taken seriously.

So in 2025 there is no more fatigue, no need to peak for a rider like Pog, there are no physical limits (gc riders can even win flat classics and win 2 grand tours in the same year) and all you can say against it is that the material has improved and training optimization has also improved. Yes, it dit, but it still doesn't explain some inhuman performances and thats why people are still talking about motor doping.

 

[MartinGT]

MVDP Gets pneumonia after smashing himself or two weeks. Meanwhile Pog has grown another lung.

 

[Raest]

The fact that it may be happening in general doesn't mean that UAE are using motors though, so framing the whole discussion on the assumption that they are somewhat diminishes its credibility.
I think it should be considered as a possibility (theoretically) but it's far more likely that they are just using good old blood doping, either a new substance that mimics the effects of EPO, or they are manipulating the biological passport markers so that it doesn't pick up blood transfusions.
There is a whole new topic discussing emerging evidence that implicate Ineos with EPO peddlers at a time when D. Walsh was writing books about how clean they were.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Might regret this in 10 years but I think all comments about motors are just ridiculing this whole forum. Makes this the place for tin foil hats. Easy to brush of all 'clinic' as a result as the place of conspiracy moon landing rejecting fools.

I don't believe motors are being used, and I don't want to believe it, as it would be the end of the sport.
But people have every right to question the possibility of it, as it's been used before. Let's be real, some of Pogacar's attacks are very questionable, especially when he's attacking in the saddle and destroying everyone without even looking tired.
I generally dislike this grouping people as conspiracy theorists for having a different opinion to your own.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

MVDP Gets pneumonia after smashing himself or two weeks. Meanwhile Pog has grown another lung.

So does doping protect you from falling ill? And if so: do we believe vdP is cleanz?

 

[SorelyBoy]

Comments about motors are ridiculing this forum?

Thats why even the UCI President David Lappartient said, that it is still a thing and that the UCI needs better controls?

Thats why the UCI started the “UCI Policy – ‘Fight against Technological Fraud’ Rewards Programme”.?
Because it´s not a thing and because it´s conspiracy?

Motor doping has nothing to do with conspiracy. Motors have already been found, how can you still talk about conspiracy? Motor doping is real, we don´t know how real but it is a problem. Otherwise, the UCI President would hardly say so.

Of course it seems crazy, but to pretend that it is not real is simply wrong.
Insiders and professionals do not express their concerns for fun and with a little respect they should be taken seriously.

So in 2025 there is no more fatigue, no need to peak for a rider like Pog, there are no physical limits (gc riders can even win flat classics and win 2 grand tours in the same year) and all you can say against it is that the material has improved and training optimization has also improved. Yes, it dit, but it still doesn't explain some inhuman performances and thats why people are still talking about motor doping.

Yep. And the logic flaw in the argument that Pogacar’s outlandish mind spinning crushing performances (against already the craziest and fastest pelotons in history I might add) are due to better diet, equipment and training, is to ignore the fact that everyone else at the elite level is doing this too. Something pretty big is going on to account for his level of superiority and recovery rates.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Yep. And the logic flaw in the argument that Pogacar’s outlandish mind spinning crushing performances (against already the craziest and fastest pelotons in history I might add) are due to better diet, equipment and training, is to ignore the fact that everyone else at the elite level is doing this too. Something pretty big is going on to account for his level of superiority and recovery rates.

Very true, people act like it's only Pogacar who has good training/ nutrition equipment ect, its almost like people think the rest of the peloton are still in the 1980's.

 

[Rotted Melon]

Long thread, but has anything like this come up in the discussion? This is just copy pasta from Google search. EPO was a new technology at one time too and the Arabs do seem to have deep pockets. Could Pogacar be a pedaling science experiment?

Performance Enhancing Use of CRISPR Technology

Potential applications in sports doping

• Targeting specific genes: CRISPR could be used to target and modify genes associated with athletic performance, such as those impacting muscle growth, endurance, oxygen delivery, and injury resistance.
• Creating 'super athletes': Theoretically, CRISPR could lead to athletes with enhanced abilities beyond natural human limits, according to SynBioBeta. This could potentially create a new category of genetically enhanced athletes who possess advantages beyond what is achievable through training and nutrition alone.

Regulatory challenges and detection

• Difficulty in detection: Unlike conventional doping, CRISPR-induced genetic modifications could be difficult to detect with existing testing methods, posing a challenge for anti-doping agencies like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).
• WADA's stance: WADA has already outlawed gene editing and included it in their list of prohibited substances and methods due to its potential to offer limitless competitive advantages at the genetic level.
• Ongoing research for detection: Researchers are actively developing methods to detect gene doping, including identifying foreign DNA sequences or vectors used for gene delivery. However, the evolving nature of gene-editing technologies means that detection methods need continuous refinement and development.

Nevermind, found the search button and see it came up back in April. Carry on.

 

[peterfin]

While motors may have a low probability - not due to the tech but due to the aparent risk to be catched and exposed in a post-race check - we should also acknowledge that they are the perfect cover up if you have things under control. There are no samples collected that can be analysed 10 years later. If you cheat with motors and nobody ever catches you doing so, nobody will ever know.