Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

I did use doping but no EPO" seems just like the standard reply for those days

I always thought the standard reply for those days is yes I took EPO but not after 1998.

Right, but since then? Unimmaginable feats, and all to be explained by "natural talent," because he won the Tour young. No suspicion riding for Gianetti, no raised eyebrows? No questions? Mind you, it isn't just Lemond, but apparently the entire cycling journalistic world. It's baffling.

If being the 2nd youngest ever Tour winner isn't talent then what is? Riders like Paul Seixas are an extreme outlier. Pog is still one of the youngest to arrive. Pog is 21 months younger than Vingegaard and only 16 months older than Remco.

On Lemond and Pogacar, Pogi was riding under Gianetti from 2018. Lemond praised Pogacar from his first wins at the ToC and his Vuelta podium of 2019.

But again, why do we think Gianetti is this god of doping? Because he was stupid 17 years ago with Ricco and even stupider as a rider back in the EPO era? Gianetti is a former doper who turned businessman. He is no Michele Ferrari. Gianetti would not have a clue how to safely circumvent the biopassport without triggering an adverse finding. But he can employ doctors with that expertise. That is where I think we should focus here. Doctors like Dr Inigo Millan.

 

[aphronesis]

Milan may know enough then to lower his profile. Gianetti could then be useful and affable in letting and having a program move as it needs to.

 

[Cookster15]

Milan may know enough then to lower his profile. Gianetti could then be useful and affable in letting and having a program move as it needs to.

I think there must be more to it than this. "Affable" Gianetti would need to influence the UCI / testers (ITA). Because there are 14 markers supposedly tracked by the biopassport. You can't fool every marker by simply micro dosing EPO.

There must be some kind of collusion going on so the ITA don't check his samples closely enough. Or else it costs too much to get a result which would remove any doubt that lawyers could exploit in court.

 

[aphronesis]

Sure, I was opening a separation of roles for the sake of specificity and not arguing figureheads.

And, no, I don’t think microdosing or anything else is a singular explanation. But which position (by which I mean doping/antidoping) has deeper experience and more to gain in the dope question?

How does that extrapolate to the world and “dope”?

 

[Extinction]

I always thought the standard reply for those days is yes I took EPO but not after 1998.



If being the 2nd youngest ever Tour winner isn't talent then what is? Riders like Paul Seixas are an extreme outlier. Pog is still one of the youngest to arrive. Pog is 21 months younger than Vingegaard and only 16 months older than Remco.

On Lemond and Pogacar, Pogi was riding under Gianetti from 2018. Lemond praised Pogacar from his first wins at the ToC and his Vuelta podium of 2019.

But again, why do we think Gianetti is this god of doping? Because he was stupid 17 years ago with Ricco and even stupider as a rider back in the EPO era? Gianetti is a former doper who turned businessman. He is no Michele Ferrari. Gianetti would not have a clue how to safely circumvent the biopassport without triggering an adverse finding. But he can employ doctors with that expertise. That is where I think we should focus here. Doctors like Dr Inigo Millan.

As already stated, Gianetti doesn't have to know anything, but knows who does from expirence and then build upon it. He is, after all, in charge, like Bruyneel, like Riis.

 

[Rob5091]

. He is no Michele Ferrari. Gianetti would not have a clue how to safely circumvent the biopassport without triggering an adverse finding. But he can employ doctors with that expertise. That is where I think we should focus here. Doctors like Dr Inigo Millan.

This is where I think the big bucks come in with the best of the best and all the latest gizmos and whatchamacallits (the same if not more up to date versions of WADA's own labs). The doctors are key to avoiding detection and boosting performance.
Lazkano was busted on his way to Dr Maynar's home town and as has been pointed out, Slovenia has a current boom of "sports physios" etc. ITA need some Balkan insiders to blow the whistle.

 

[Extinction]

Armstrong wasn’t threatening his finances when he made noise about Ferrari. This is the point about chronology.

Oh no? Trek extinguished their collaboration with Lemond as a result. I don't doubt that Lemond was motivated by the loss on his return of investment for his bike line by Armstrong's success. However, the vile way in which Armstrong attempted to destroy him and others, let's us know who is the "bad guy" in that saga.

 

[aphronesis]

Trek’s actions came after the Ferrari remarks. It’s hard to make this more plain.

 

[Extinction]

Trek’s actions came after Ferrari remarks. It’s hard to make this more plain.

So, we agree. Trek's actions coming after the Ferrari remarks, confirms Armstrong was behind it.

 

[aphronesis]

Of course, but letting one’s own professional history be triggered to the point of threatening another’s “brand” and business interests could invite that kind of backlash. There are multiple threads on LA, so, again, I’m deeply uninterested in any discussion of his personality and actions.

Conversely, maybe after Lemond felt that EPO ended his career it was unconscionable for another American to succeed with it and decided to pitch his own brand on that hill.

Sorry about the prolepsis, it’s been a long week.

 

[Extinction]

Of course, but letting one’s own professional history be triggered to the point of threatening another’s “brand” and business interests could invite that kind of backlash. There are multiple threads on LA, so, again, I’m deeply uninterested in any discussion of his personality and actions.

Conversely, maybe after Lemond felt that EPO ended his career it was unconscionable for another American to succeed with it and decided to pitch his own brand on that hill.

Sorry about the prolepsis, it’s been a long week.

Armstrong was placed under fire and brought the necessary pressure to bear to break Lemond's livelyhood. No need to be sorry about the prolepsis, as I already got that, but interests are an inevitable condition of socio-economic factors. On the hill one can only be knocked down. It must be seen if falling is justified or not and why.

 

[aphronesis]

That wave may have come and gone for now. Making the question a little moot.

 

[BubbaChuck]

people really think gianetti is mastermind,lmaoo.pogacar is levels above in everything.who do you think fixed uae.

 

[dr.eve]

people really think gianetti is mastermind,lmaoo.pogacar is levels above in everything.who do you think fixed uae.

Nah I don't think he is a mastermind. Cycling sport, and sport in general is just utterly naïeve. Same as with FIFA, it doesn't take Infantino to be a mastermind, it just takes the rest to be so naïeve... Sports is such a corrupt business and its wide in the open for all to see.

 

[AlpRaid]

But again, why do we think Gianetti is this god of doping? Because he was stupid 17 years ago with Ricco and even stupider as a rider back in the EPO era? Gianetti is a former doper who turned businessman. He is no Michele Ferrari. Gianetti would not have a clue how to safely circumvent the biopassport without triggering an adverse finding. But he can employ doctors with that expertise. That is where I think we should focus here. Doctors like Dr Inigo Millan.

u do realize that Gianetti literally has decades of working with doping, with doping doctors, with doping systems. in fact, it can be argued that it is only through this lens he knows cycling at all. so give me a reason why he would change out of the blue?

also, I agree it is crazy when people here quote Bruyneel, or use Rominger or Indurain as examples. Their ENTIRE careers are completely due to doping. Indurain, likely no donkey per se, would never be able to follow in the mountains without EPO. Rominger, on the other hand, may have been a real donkey, and just a good responder (like Armstrong).

 

[AlpRaid]

I have always assumed Greg Lemond had the best un-doped physiology for a for cyclist at the onset of the EPO era.

and you would be correct.

In the space of one year (between 1991 and 1992) Lemond couldn't hold mediocre climbers in the mountains.

I would suggest between 1990 and 1991 was the first big change (and in interviews, he agrees), but it's likely a gradual thing over 2-3 years. By 1993, he could not get even the slightest result.

I think that explains why Greg would be aggrieved at what transpired.

he actually is not. he has repeatedly defended all riders who succumbed, despite not being one of them. however, he refused to be bullied by Armstrong, Trek, or Oakley, and won against each of them.

If Lemond didn't have such a high VO2 max score and three Tour wins I doubt he would be so annoyed at what happened in the sport at that time.

he has actually said that it was likely the fact that he had already won that helped not succumb to doping himself. He also attributes (or his wife has said) that cycling needed to be something "pure" in his life after dealing with being sexually abused as a kid.

But for Pogacar I'd be surprised if his VO2 Max was less than 90 and would more likely expect it to be close to a record score based upon what we have been seeing. I think Jonas Vingegaard was said to have scored 97 (by his father) ?

...if Vingo has 97, that would be the record, and it boggles belief what Pog's would then have to be. which makes me all the more doubtful -- not that he is not a talent. But the radical change between 2023 and 2024 sets off alarms in my head. In 2021, he was already a 2-time winner of the TDF, when he was dropped on a hill by Remco (still coming back from his Lombardia crash) and Colbrelli in the Euros. This is absolutely UNFATHOMABLE any more.

Pog is likely a great rider. The last two years though have made everything seem ridiculous. Very, very reminiscent of the arrival of epo in the peloton.

 

[Cookster15]

Gianetti seems a shrewd businessman. Like all good businesspeople he employs the best he can find and afford in each role. He has €10 mil p.a. more to play with than the other top teams - at least officially.

u do realize that Gianetti literally has decades of working with doping, with doping doctors, with doping systems. in fact, it can be argued that it is only through this lens he knows cycling at all. so give me a reason why he would change out of the blue?

also, I agree it is crazy when people here quote Bruyneel, or use Rominger or Indurain as examples. Their ENTIRE careers are completely due to doping. Indurain, likely no donkey per se, would never be able to follow in the mountains without EPO. Rominger, on the other hand, may have been a real donkey, and just a good responder (like Armstrong).

Yes but do you realise avoiding detection under the bio passport whilst delivering huge performance gains must require specialist medical expertise way beyond the comprehension of the virtual backyard doper that Gianetti was? And as a manager he didn’t cover himself in glory with CERA either. Between his clown Ricco getting busted with CERA in 2008 and the 2020 TdF where was guru Gianetti?

Every name you mention you don’t know to what level they doped (yes Rominger was a Ferrari client). You can only point to their record as juniors but junior results often aren’t a great indicator of results as pros. Go check all the junior worlds Pogacar competed in. How many of those teenagers who finished ahead of him are world beating pros today? None that I have checked.

In the interest of making progress can we talk about Gianetti’s doctor(s)? Who is Gianetti’s Dr Ferrari? Else this is little more than rival fan based annoyance at their doper getting beaten.

 

[dr.eve]

I don't buy the from 1991 the 'first big change' happened. I am convinced doping was present way before as witnessed by other sports.

And I fear I may be one of the only here who really does not care about LeMond.

And as many have said before, Gianetti does not need to be a Ferrari.

 

[BubbaChuck]

''However, when he showed up to his first training camp in 2018 with the UAE squad in which he’s spent his whole career, this cherubic kid with barely any definition in his chunky legs was holding his own on long climbs with seasoned professionals such as Dan Martin.''

 

[Krzysztof_O]

''However, when he showed up to his first training camp in 2018 with the UAE squad in which he’s spent his whole career, this cherubic kid with barely any definition in his chunky legs was holding his own on long climbs with seasoned professionals such as Dan Martin.''

Teddy's fatty legs were sculptured worse than my grandma's but he had the powa!

 

[Cookster15]

And as many have said before, Gianetti does not need to be a Ferrari.

Yes and as I tried asking on a number of occasions who is Gianetti’s Dr Ferrari? Never get an answer. Below is a link to Gianetti's medical and sports science staff:

Health & Trainings - UAE team Emirates

The first UAE World Tour cycling team

www.uaeteamemirates.com

A few notable names from the link:

• Jeroen Swart - Professor of sports medicine
• Iñigo San Millán - Professor of medicine
• Adriano Rotunno - Medical Director
• Dr Federico Paoletti - Doctor

Do we know anything interesting from a doping perspective about these people or any others in the link?

Millán is "Mr zone 2"

Do any have doping links back to Gianetti's shady past? Because Gianetti himself would not have a clue how to a) execute the techniques safely, b) avoid detection and c) provide a big performance boost that other teams haven't mastered.

 

[aphronesis]

Well just in. re. Gianetti’s role, there’s this nod to a past and distribution of responsibilities

“According to the report, the drugs used by Armstrong and his teammates were generally supplied by José Martí, often at clandestine meetings. Better known as Pepe, Martí ostensibly worked as a trainer for Armstrong’s United States Postal Service and Discovery Channel teams. But several riders told Usada that Martí’s training largely involved relaying information from Ferrari, who was apparently careful to give only advice rather than administer or supply drugs. Martí, who also helped with the team’s blood transfusions, according to the report, sometimes sold drugs to riders on other teams.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sports/cycling/how-lance-armstrong-beat-cyclings-drug-tests.html

There’s this

Radio France investigates 'doping incident' case UAE boss Gianetti tried to bury

The investigation alleges that Gianetti confessed to an injection of an artificial blood substitute in 1998.

escapecollective.com

and this

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/cycling/article/tadej-pogacar-mauro-gianetti-david-walsh-3q3dfgkmh

Swart, as you probably know, is harder and less a fool.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Yes and as I tried asking on a number of occasions who is Gianetti’s Dr Ferrari? Never get an answer. Below is a link to Gianetti's medical and sports science staff:

Health & Trainings - UAE team Emirates

The first UAE World Tour cycling team

www.uaeteamemirates.com

A few notable names from the link:

• Jeroen Swart - Professor of sports medicine
• Iñigo San Millán - Professor of medicine
• Adriano Rotunno - Medical Director
• Dr Federico Paoletti - Doctor

Do we know anything interesting from a doping perspective about these people or any others in the link?

Millán is "Mr zone 2"

Do any have doping links back to Gianetti's shady past? Because Gianetti himself would not have a clue how to a) execute the techniques safely, b) avoid detection and c) provide a big performance boost that other teams haven't mastered.

I don't get why you're searching for a single "Gianetti's Ferrari", there's probably more than one of them, with different tasks (e.g. "what to take and how" and "where do we get the good stuff" can be/should be handled by two different person) , and they might come and go across the years.
In the past he worked with Dr Ibarguren (of Saulnier fame) and Guido Nigrelli (a pharmacist who got suspended jail time for the Mantova bust).
The present Ferrari(s) might very well be someone totally unknown or someone hiding in plain sight (after all a guy like Geert Leinders looked like a rather "plain" cycling doctor until we learned what he was actually up to at Rabo). Hiding in plain sight isn't that hard anyway, you've got people like JV trying to pass San Millan as a clean cycling knight, which is hilarious when you look at who he worked with.

 

[YellowSocks]

Else this is little more than rival fan based annoyance at their doper getting beaten.

You're not ready to give up on this idea, are you? Which rival doped rider are people here fans of? Personally, I don't know.

 

[AlpRaid]

UAE “physio” staff being poached by Football teams.

I guess they “want what she is having”.

lol. Another similarity with the arrival of epo and its providers in the early 90s.