TDF Stage 15: Limoux - Montpellier 187km

[El Pistolero]

He congratulated Cav for an impressive win. The nerve!

Indeed, how can he call that impressive?

 

[goggalor]

Obviously another flat stage that you failed to watch.



JV said they tried to close down the break, but couldn't because Dave Zee was their engine and he was out with his broken wrist.
They tried, they failed.

They wouldn't have failed if they kept riding after that crash. Even with Zabriskie retiring. It doesn't matter what Vaughers said, I saw the race and they came a lot closer than the four or so minutes they gave away.

 

[hatcher]

Wow, he did look p*ssed. To join in on the speculation, I think he was hinting to Cav cheating to make the time cut yesterday. If he was dropped from the gruppetto for 70 km it doesn't make much sense that he would be in it at the finish.

Except we all saw the stage and know he wasn't dropped by the gruppetto for 70km.

IMO Farrar was just hopped up on adrenaline, and was exceptionally frustrated because he thought Cav was beatable today. He took a cheap shot.

 

[Mambo95]

Well if there arent time limits, theres nothing to stop the Gruppeto taking it very easy and coming in 3 hours after the winner.

Finishing the Tour would also be a lot less of an achievment.

And it would play havoc with the Lantern Rouge standings

I wouldn't abolish them, just slacken them a little. Make what was a 40 minute limit 60 minutes.

They've done the opposite this year, the limits are slightly tighter this year than last, yet the organisers want the sprinters to go for intermediates every day. There needs to be a bit of give and take.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Cervelo/Tyler needs a lead out man who can lead out

HTC & Cav deserve the win, they are the only ones who sort out the lead out properly and place their rider exactly where he needs to be.

Sky were appalling. Swift went left looking for a wheel as his last lead out guy went right. Swift ended up going in 4th rider behind Cav, ie 6th wheel. But Julian Dean took the prize. I think it was Daniel Oss that was 3rd wheel, right behind Cav, as Cav prepared to go for it. The overhead shot showed a massive gap back to 4th rider Dean who was Sprinting (?) on top of his hoods. Dean did not close up but then pulled over so Tyler now had about 2 clear bike lengths to make up before he even got onto the back of 3rd wheel Oss, just as Cav fired away from the front of Oss. There was no way anyone could win from that far back - credit to Tyler for getting a close as he did. Dean had no need to let the gap open in the first place, previously he had been on Oss's wheel.

Dean needs to be told - no big gaps - ever, grip the bottom of his bars and shown where he needs to place Tyler, if Tyler is to win. And if Dean did too much, then the guy before needs to learn what to do.

Given that HTC had been driving the front for 15km that was an appalling show by the rest. Rather than HTC having the last, strongest, man standing, as Cav was launched, it should have been either Sky or Cervelo who were more easily able to place their riders into the race winning position and Cav having to fight for a wheel on their trains. From 18km to 5km they could have been sat in.Plenty of time from 5km for a fresh fast train to move up.

I cannot see it changing before Paris as I just don't see any other team sorting themselves out like HTC, even though I think the other teams have the talent to do exactly what HTC do. No use whingeing Tyler, Ceervelo just need to take responsibility for getting you into a race winning position.

 

[sublimit]

Or he could be frustrated that he was beaten by someone who may have cheated to stay in the race.

You aren't making a lot of sense here. Thor only lost the jersey because they let the break have an extra four minutes when Vino, VDB etc. crashed.

Voeckler is a more worthy yellow jersey holder in the end and thats what counts. A far superior rider than Thor for yellow in the biggest race with a chance of a podium and not just for show.

 

[hrotha]

I wouldn't abolish them, just slacken them a little. Make what was a 40 minute limit 60 minutes.

They've done the opposite this year, the limits are slightly tighter this year than last, yet the organisers want the sprinters to go for intermediates every day. There needs to be a bit of give and take.

Why, exactly? Why can't the sprinters just ride harder?

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Why, exactly? Why can't the sprinters just ride harder?

It's about balance. You could set a 0 timelimit and kick everyone out bar the winner & ties, or you can have no limit at all.

The organisers clearly want sprinters in the race, so where's the harm in setting conditions which allow them to perform at their best. Obviously some people would rather every sprint became a species of an endurance event, it's a personal preference.

 

[El Pistolero]

It's about balance. You could set a 0 timelimit and kick everyone out bar the winner & ties, or you can have no limit at all.

The organisers clearly want sprinters in the race, so where's the harm in setting conditions which allow them to perform at their best. Obviously some people would rather every sprint became a species of an endurance event, it's a personal preference.

Some people like to see an actual race. Not a glorified criterium 7 times in 3 weeks. It's hardly balance when one guy can win 5 stages in the Tour.

 

[spalco]

I cannot see it changing before Paris as I just don't see any other team sorting themselves out like HTC, even though I think the other teams have the talent to do exactly what HTC do. No use whingeing Tyler, Ceervelo just need to take responsibility for getting you into a race winning position.

Yeah, especially since HTC will now do nothing for a week, or at least as close to nothing as you can in the Alps while all the other teams do have to put in hard time in the wind in some way.

 

[Mambo95]

Why, exactly? Why can't the sprinters just ride harder?

Because:

1. Forcing riders to ride harder for no good reason isn't exactly going to discourage doping

2. If the autobus have a little bit more energy and aren't so worried about getting through the mountains, you may have more riders attacking on the flat stages

3. Getting rid of competitors (including big names) due to some arbitrary rule that exists only for logistical reasons isn't really good for the event. Would you throw a football team out of the league if they lost one game 5-0?


Here's an idea. On the rest day get all the teams to lead out their GC rider for a sprint. Any GC rider who can't get above 68kph gets sent home.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It's about balance. You could set a 0 timelimit and kick everyone out bar the winner & ties, or you can have no limit at all.

The organisers clearly want sprinters in the race, so where's the harm in setting conditions which allow them to perform at their best. Obviously some people would rather every sprint became a species of an endurance event, it's a personal preference.

Why shouldn't sprints be a species of endurance event? That is, after all, what road cycling is all about as a sport.

Sprints already are an endurance event - they're about who has the most left after 160km of formation riding. If it wasn't about endurance then we'd be watching Grégory Baugé and Chris Hoy instead of Tyler Farrar and Mark Cavendish.

We could have some crits if you really want something that allows the sprinters to perform at their best, since they won't have to deal with fatigue that way. But this is a three-week Grand Tour, and fatigue could, nay, SHOULD play a role.

 

[131313]

I think Farrar is just bitterly disappointed that he was the fastest today and didn't win. Then he did his best Cavendish impersonation by opening his mouth and saying things that he'll probably regret.

why should he regret it? The race is a total farce, as always. Preferential treatment for marquee riders. The race organizer's comments on the subject make it very clear, they don't care about enforcing the rules.

Tyler has every reason to be P.O'd since he actually had to ride his bike yesterday. The race is a total joke, as usual.

 

[spalco]

Here's an idea. On the rest day get all the teams to lead out their GC rider for a sprint. Any GC rider who can't get above 68kph gets sent home.

Heh, I would like to see that actually, maybe do it on an airfield or something so there's enough space.

 

[The Hitch]

Here's an idea. On the rest day get all the teams to lead out their GC rider for a sprint. Any GC rider who can't get above 68kph gets sent home.

An interesting way for the Vuelta to ensure Valverde gets the red again (or for the first time) in 2012.

 

[hatcher]

why should he regret it? The race is a total farce, as always. Preferential treatment for marquee riders. The race organizer's comments on the subject make it very clear, they don't care about enforcing the rules.

Tyler has every reason to be P.O'd since he actually had to ride his bike yesterday. The race is a total joke, as usual.

Again, love to see those pictures if you have them.

Absence of proof is pretty poor proof.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Why shouldn't sprints be a species of endurance event? That is, after all, what road cycling is all about as a sport.

Sprints already are an endurance event - they're about who has the most left after 160km of formation riding. If it wasn't about endurance then we'd be watching Grégory Baugé and Chris Hoy instead of Tyler Farrar and Mark Cavendish.

We could have some crits if you really want something that allows the sprinters to perform at their best, since they won't have to deal with fatigue that way. But this is a three-week Grand Tour, and fatigue could, nay, SHOULD play a role.

My post was a rambling piece of equivocation, please respond to Mambo who actually made some good arguments.

 

[muscat]

HTC & Cav deserve the win, they are the only ones who sort out the lead out properly and place their rider exactly where he needs to be.

Sky were appalling. Swift went left looking for a wheel as his last lead out guy went right. Swift ended up going in 4th rider behind Cav, ie 6th wheel. But Julian Dean took the prize. I think it was Daniel Oss that was 3rd wheel, right behind Cav, as Cav prepared to go for it. The overhead shot showed a massive gap back to 4th rider Dean who was Sprinting (?) on top of his hoods. Dean did not close up but then pulled over so Tyler now had about 2 clear bike lengths to make up before he even got onto the back of 3rd wheel Oss, just as Cav fired away from the front of Oss. There was no way anyone could win from that far back - credit to Tyler for getting a close as he did. Dean had no need to let the gap open in the first place, previously he had been on Oss's wheel.

Dean needs to be told - no big gaps - ever, grip the bottom of his bars and shown where he needs to place Tyler, if Tyler is to win. And if Dean did too much, then the guy before needs to learn what to do.

Given that HTC had been driving the front for 15km that was an appalling show by the rest. Rather than HTC having the last, strongest, man standing, as Cav was launched, it should have been either Sky or Cervelo who were more easily able to place their riders into the race winning position and Cav having to fight for a wheel on their trains. From 18km to 5km they could have been sat in.Plenty of time from 5km for a fresh fast train to move up.

I cannot see it changing before Paris as I just don't see any other team sorting themselves out like HTC, even though I think the other teams have the talent to do exactly what HTC do. No use whingeing Tyler, Ceervelo just need to take responsibility for getting you into a race winning position.

Most teams have brought a mixture of GC, TT and sprinters in their team i.e. Garmin, Sky OPL, Lampre, Moviestart etc and have contibuted to make an entertaining race. HTC have brought an 8 man lead out team who do little else but mop up intermediate sprint points to stop Cavs rival sprinters getting them and then just work for the last few kms before a flat sprint to drag him to the last 100m of the race. Pettachi and Farrar are not spoon fed their results by their teams and have to work for it.

If cav wins the green jersy what does it show? What are his results ouside of the flat sprints compared with Gilbert and Rojas? Just out of interest has anybody worked out what the points would be if last years points system applied?

 

[Ragerod]

why should he regret it? The race is a total farce, as always. Preferential treatment for marquee riders. The race organizer's comments on the subject make it very clear, they don't care about enforcing the rules.

Tyler has every reason to be P.O'd since he actually had to ride his bike yesterday. The race is a total joke, as usual.

He shouldn't regret saying what he thinks but my impression of Farrar is that he will regret making accusations in the heat of the moment. He wasn't going to but the interviewer forced the question and he cracked.

Besides Cavendish pacing himself over the preceding climbs and using three or four team-mates to get back on before the final climb is probably the only way he could have made the time limit. It's a logical explanation.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

1. Forcing riders to ride harder for no good reason isn't exactly going to discourage doping

2. If the autobus have a little bit more energy and aren't so worried about getting through the mountains, you may have more riders attacking on the flat stages

3. Getting rid of competitors (including big names) due to some arbitrary rule that exists only for logistical reasons isn't really good for the event. Would you throw a football team out of the league if they lost one game 5-0?

Your point 1 argument is an argument against GTs, not against time limits. Certain skills are required in a GT. Getting over mountains in a decent time is part of that. If a sprinter is incapable of doing that, he has no place in a GT.

If the autobus has more energy, you might see more attacks. On the other hand, the people pulling back those attacks have more energy left too. It isn't like the size of the breaks suddenly get bigger either, because I'm sure there are more people than the usual 4-6 that get into the break that have the energy for it. So you can argue that giving the autobus more time (and more energy as result) will result in less successful breaks.

For your 3rd point, sometimes rules have to be made. Roads need to be opened again, union rules apply, etc, etc. All those people living near the race and the public on top of the mountains want to go home after all. So you have to set some kind of limit. History shows us that the current limit is a decent one, serving the purpose of kicking out the weak ones, but keeping most people in the race. As I said, some people just shouldn't try riding a GT.

Now for the Cavendish example. There is zero proof that he is doing anything wrong. Or more wrong than most other sprinters that is. He finished within the timelimit. So unless there is proof of him doing anything wrong, he belongs in the race. Comments that might or might not have been made by other riders aren't proof.

 

[SirLes]

Most teams have brought a mixture of GC, TT and sprinters in their team i.e. Garmin, Sky OPL, Lampre, Moviestart etc and have contibuted to make an entertaining race. HTC have brought an 8 man lead out team who do little else but mop up intermediate sprint points to stop Cavs rival sprinters getting them and then just work for the last few kms before a flat sprint to drag him to the last 100m of the race. Pettachi and Farrar are not spoon fed their results by their teams and have to work for it.

If cav wins the green jersy what does it show? What are his results ouside of the flat sprints compared with Gilbert and Rojas? Just out of interest has anybody worked out what the points would be if last years points system applied?

You are absolutely right! What were HTC thinking. All these other teams have clearly thought "We must bring a range of rider types to the Tour so that all those people following at home on their TV or computers are entertained" That is defintely the best strategey.

Mark Cavendish is not worth getting excited about. Obviously if any other rider or team were really interested in winning easy stages they could have racked up 19 stage wins in less than 4 years easy but those sort of wins don't really count so no one's ever bothered before. I mean your example of Pettachi is spot on. He has built his reputation on the ability to pop up at the right time, pick the right wheel and never need a lead out train. His wins in the Giro were all down to cunning and climbing ability as it is well known the organisers always produce the most mountainous routes that make it really difficult for any sprinters to win anything.

 

[Ragerod]

Most teams have brought a mixture of GC, TT and sprinters in their team i.e. Garmin, Sky OPL, Lampre, Moviestart etc and have contibuted to make an entertaining race. HTC have brought an 8 man lead out team who do little else but mop up intermediate sprint points to stop Cavs rival sprinters getting them and then just work for the last few kms before a flat sprint to drag him to the last 100m of the race. Pettachi and Farrar are not spoon fed their results by their teams and have to work for it.

If cav wins the green jersy what does it show? What are his results ouside of the flat sprints compared with Gilbert and Rojas? Just out of interest has anybody worked out what the points would be if last years points system applied?

HTC are forced to ride 100km on the front whilst everyone else gets a free ride. Farrar's only TDF stage win was a gift by his train/Feillu whilst Petacchi's tactic to beat Cavendish is to get on his wheel, get the Lampre guys to help the HTC train and jump Cav with 250 to go. Cav's other stage wins so far this tour have been down to his speed and Greipel's inability to hold a wheel.

HTC are simply better at it than anyone else.

 

[Mambo95]

Your point 1 argument is an argument against GTs, not against time limits. Certain skills are required in a GT. Getting over mountains in a decent time is part of that. If a sprinter is incapable of doing that, he has no place in a GT.

But they do get over it in decent time. Very decent.

For example, take the 2010 L'Etape du Tour (the stage to the Tourmalet). The fastest time was 5 hours 59. Cavendish did it in 5.35

 

[spalco]

Pettachi and Farrar are not spoon fed their results by their teams and have to work for it.

And their results reflect that.
Cavendish: 4
Farrar: 1
Petacchi: 0

 

[King Of The Wolds]

that's how i took it too. i have never seen him that upset after cav beat him.

very harsh words, and not things that should be thrown around without something to back it up.

Farrar, like Rojas, Fischer et al, should focus less on moaning about Cav and focus more on winning GT stages.