TDF Stage 15 - Monday, July 19 2010, Pamiers - Bagnères-de-Luchon, 187 km

[Dominar]

Because class is not about what others do to you, but about what you do to others.

+100

Haven't seen the race (no video allowed here at work), but from everyone's description, it doesn't look good for AC. I don't see this incident as a parallel to the cobbles of S3, because the very point of the cobbles was to trap riders behind others (which is why I am one of those who don't want to see them again in the TDF) and it would be silly for AS not to continue riding hard. AC wasn't the only rider who was caught behind Frank that day, and he certainly wasn't in the MJ.

But whether or not what Contador did was justified, it sounds like he's already been convicted in the court of public opinion. Yet another TDF win with an * beside it...

 

[Ryaguas]

for those, like myself, who think you don't attack the mj under those circumstances, here's a question: if roles are reversed, and contador has a spill or mechanical tomorrow, should schleck honor the rule or is he now exempt as it pertains to contador?

Of course Andy is going to attack "all in" he needs more time on Contador cuz he knows what is going to happen in the TT...

Well don't worry... AC is going to prove that he deserves La maillot jaune... 1st: He will kill Andy in La Col du Tourmalet, is his favorite climb and is where he ,since a long time, has been thinking in terminate the tour and prove everyone that he is the best climber...

2nd: He will do a great ITT and put a gap of 2 or 1.30 mins between Andy and Him...

You ppl are talking like if Andy will put a 5min gap to AC in Le Tourmalet... you are dreaming...

 

[alberto.legstrong]

wow, so much anger...

That generally follows after you have seen so much stupid.

 

[Dedelou]

Funny how LA's fanboys now adore French crowds, when these are the same guys that use to spit/boo/insult LA a few years ago. Remember, the French don't like anyone but..Richard Virenque

I hate to tell you something your hate prevents you for hearing and seeing.. 92 % of the crowds you see watching the tour de france along the route is from a conglamorate of at least people from 25 different countries. This is especially true in the mountains. Amazing how seating at home and watching television you can tell the origins of spit. you must have DNA vision.

 

[Dedelou]

there are a lot of comments flying about people making comments only because they hate this or that person and will do anything to criticize them.

regardless of how i feel about the individual riders today, i would be saying the same thing, as i think many people here would. it's not about the individual rider. AND it's not about who fell on what day and who didn't stop. to me, there is a consideration afforded the mj, it's part and parcel of this race. if you're racing in the front and the mj is nowhere in sight, that's one thing, but if the mj is RIGHT THERE and kicking ***, and has a mechanical or fall, you don't keep racing until he's back on. you ride tempo and you sure as hec don't go on the attack. that's it.

here is a quote from a 2003 new york times article about this very topic, when the racers waited for the mj, who was la at the time, after a fall:

" But when Lance Armstrong caught his handlebars on a fan's tote bag and crashed to the pavement last month during the 15th stage of the Tour de France -- a crucial climb to the Pyrenees ski village of Luz-Ardiden -- Armstrong's rivals slowed down and waited for him to recover, forsaking the chance to leave him behind.

At the time, race fans heard much about cycling's first unwritten rule: Thou shalt not ride away from the race leader when he is on the ground, stopping to relieve himself, or at other unsporting moments. Commentators agreed after the race that all of Armstrong's closest rivals appeared to heed the rule, including Jan Ullrich, who at the time trailed Armstrong in the overall standing by a mere 15 seconds.

But by doing so, Ullrich and the others not only allowed Armstrong to catch up. They also gave him a chance to win the stage -- and arguably the Tour itself, both of which he did. Ullrich finished second, for the fifth time over all and the third time to Armstrong. "

apple and orange. lance fall was precipitated by a spectator. throwing a chain. choosing the wrong grear, pedaling backward is poor cycling skills and not being able to put it back is even worse.

 

[lilyprotector]

That generally follows after you have seen so much stupid.

i enjoy the board and hearing other perspectives and also benefitting from things that other people know that i don't. i, too, am frustrated at times by opinions that i strongly disagree with or people saying things that make absolutely no sense to me. but i hate it when people go off and call other people names or tell people to shut up (usually in much stronger language). there's just no need for that. some of us agree, some of us disagree, it will vary from subject to subject, but there's no need for name-calling from member to member.

there are plenty of alberto fans who will bash lance until the cows come home, but now are enraged that some people actually feel that what ac did today was wrong and are feeling the need to attack them for it. not cool.

that is certainly not everyone. there are plenty of alberto fans who may or may not agree with that thread, but are having civil discussions/disagreements. my only point here is that people have differing opinions and what seems obvious to me may seem ridiculous to you and vice versa, but there's no need to go attacking other members or name calling.

 

[Ryaguas]

wow, so much anger...

That generally follows after you have seen so much stupid.

Hahahahahahaha Alberto that was perfect... I was looking for an expression to explain that...

But is not anger is something like... when someone tells you that 1+1=3 and you explain to that person that is 2 once, twice and againg and again, etc... but that person don't get it...

Publicus has really good posts but posters like Lily or lostintime just don't read it or just don't want to accept the reality or want to summon a unwritten rule that everybody knows and everybody should and is obligated to follow it...

 

[Dedelou]

I guess it is going to be a long night with disgruntled Armstrong fans trying to score points against their Nemesis.

Things were different back in the day?
That's a new one.
The Tour has been around since 1903, not 1999 and such things did happen during the Armstrong era and regularly, back in the days.
The Passage du Gois incident was as cynical a manouvre as ever we have seen.

Both Riis and Andy have sucked it up and spat it out, but I guess on here, things will continued to be amateurish and emotionally charged.

yes.. not to mention trying to drop your teammate and designated leader who made the mistake to position himself poorly in the wind. in the old days. Or taking a short cut and not return to where you left the road, essentially not finishing the stage in the old days

 

[Climbing]

Yes, You cannot sue AC for attacking AS with a mechanical.
Isn't this what are you guys asking?

 

[Anonymous]

I think a bunch of people here to go look at old footage of Hinault, to see how often he would have pulled up and waited.

Or Merckx.

If you can't figure out HOW to ride your freaking bike, you lose the race.


period.

 

[kurtinsc]

yes.. not to mention trying to drop your teammate and designated leader who made the mistake to position himself poorly in the wind. in the old days. Or taking a short cut and not return to where you left the road, essentially not finishing the stage in the old days

Okay... the wind eschelon is one thing... but seriously on the "short cut"? There are plenty of things to attack Lance on... but avoiding a crash in front of him, riding off road for a bit, getting off the bike, jumping a ditch, then getting back on and pedaling BEHIND the group he was with to catch up... well that's not much of a shortcut. They did slow up for him though... and probably still would have had he somehow stopped in his tracks, then pedaled along the road the "long" way around.

 

[lilyprotector]

posters like Lily or lostintime just don't read it or just don't want to accept the reality or want to summon a unwritten rule that everybody knows and everybody should and is obligated to follow it...

please don't ascribe motivations to me. clearly we have differing opinions on what the unwritten rule is/if there is one, but i don't feel the need to name call people whom i disagree with.

 

[reubenr]

I agree with you on the "shift" portion. Very accurate and perceptive.

I have to disagree with lumping Phil Liggett into this situation, in this one case. He was quite defensive of Contador's actions and called out Paul for his comments.

I am re-evaluating my opinion of Mr. Liggett, but he did state that Mr. Schleck lost the yellow jersey threw no fault of his own. Before sighing off, he reconsidered and thought he might have made a mistake shifting gears. I did hear Mr. Liggett countering Mr. Sherwen, earlier, so I am taking that in to account in my re-evaluation, but these guys are so screwing up the reporting that I am totally fed up with them. They are spoiling the race. They are not the show. The cyclists are the show. I watch the event on line and I have to say, as I have said before, the man that does that commentary does an outstanding job with no biases or mistakes that do not go uncorrected.

 

[theovaf]

Just a thought.
Lets say the mechanical didn't happen...
Andy crosses the summit with 10'' over Vino and 20'' over AC, Samu et al (succesful attack, right?).
What is the normal progression of things? They finish all in the same group imo.

Since i want to continue following with the same passion, i'm ready to buy the "Andy's fault" interpretation

 

[lostintime]

Thx for the answer... now I know that you don't have a faking idea about cycling...

This kind of posts are stupid...

maybe you forget to post his second tweet or you didn't want to do it...

at least someone on the peloton remembers what happened on the stage 3...

I will recall you previous post... so now what happens in the first week doesn't count for the whole tour ah??? what happened in the stage 3 didn't count for the gaps that we are seeing here in the 3rd week...??? bah this kind of arguments are driving me crazy...

Now AC is a classless person, is the evilest rider in the whole peloton, he is the worst person ever... hahaha you make me laugh ppl...

mmmm I've been watching the replay of the stage and AC didn't make an "all in" attack when Andy was trying to fix his wheel... he was just going climbing and trying to not lose the pace... a proof of that is that Andy was just 15 secs behind AC, SS and Menchov in the top of the mountain... when they feel that they gave enough time to recover to Andy Samu Sanchez started to do what he knows to do very well and is the descent... after that we know the rest of the history...

The argument about that Andy had BIG gap when he attacked AC is a LIE... AC was already there first Vino then Him...

Plz just see the replays and then come here and give a good explanation or a good opinion and not stupid things like "AC is a classless person" etc etc etc...

Since we're playing "the forum is a verbal funhouse" ...... Doggy want a biscuit to shut up?

 

[guncha]

Contador is a sore loser. I have no respect to him. He accelerated immediately when he saw Andy had a problem.
During the decent he got a better guys to work with while Andy had to work alone. It means Andy not only lost 40 seconds today but he also used much more energy to limit his loses. Due to huge amount of wasted energy his time on Tourmalet might not be the same as it should have been.
All in all, the race is f**** up because of this accident. But anyway, a credit to the organizers for such a great route this year.

 

[hrotha]

Contador is a sore loser. I have no respect to him. He accelerated immediately when he saw Andy had a problem.
During the decent he got a better guys to work with while Andy had to work alone. It means Andy not only lost 40 seconds today but he also used much more energy to limit his loses. Due to huge amount of wasted energy his time on Tourmalet might not be the same as it should have been.
All in all, the race is f**** up because of this accident. But anyway, a credit to the organizers for such a great route this year.

Contador was already accelerating because Andy had attacked. He just didn't stop. Now I find that equally questionable, but you can't twist the facts like that.

Also, Andy was helped by Van den Broeck, and there's a whole rest day before the Tourmalet climb that matters.

Anyway, this should make things interesting. Andy should be ****ed and needs time, and Contador should be ****ed too and keen to prove he didn't need this time to win the Tour.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

i enjoy the board and hearing other perspectives and also benefitting from things that other people know that i don't. i, too, am frustrated at times by opinions that i strongly disagree with or people saying things that make absolutely no sense to me. but i hate it when people go off and call other people names or tell people to shut up (usually in much stronger language). there's just no need for that. some of us agree, some of us disagree, it will vary from subject to subject, but there's no need for name-calling from member to member.

there are plenty of alberto fans who will bash lance until the cows come home, but now are enraged that some people actually feel that what ac did today was wrong and are feeling the need to attack them for it. not cool.

that is certainly not everyone. there are plenty of alberto fans who may or may not agree with that thread, but are having civil discussions/disagreements. my only point here is that people have differing opinions and what seems obvious to me may seem ridiculous to you and vice versa, but there's no need to go attacking other members or name calling.

who said I was attacking you? i am just saying after you see some and then more and then more hardheaded reasoning, visceral reactions on either side by people participating is pretty common.

It is usually easy to see in arguments such as these that the predisposition of the poster is coloring their reactions. On both sides.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

LA Law

Look if the Boss says it's not so bad - it's end of story.

BTW LA actually contributed to the Team Classification today!

 

[lilyprotector]

who said I was attacking you? i am just saying after you see some and then more and then more hardheaded reasoning, visceral reactions on either side by people participating is pretty common.

It is usually easy to see in arguments such as these that the predisposition of the poster is coloring their reactions. On both sides.

my response was in response to your response to a particularly nasty post by ryaguas (which did attack me personally) which you said was the result of his having seen so much "stupid" on the boards. the post was not directed just at you but the increasing comments i had seen by people denigrating other people on the message boards, so i'm sorry if that was implied. i quoted you only because it was the last such post which i felt was denigrating other people. . my point was we can all disagree but there's no need to personally attack anyone or name call others whom we don't agree with. obviously, as you pointed out, we all have our own biases.

i actually did not feel that you were attacking me personally, but your support of ryagua's post attacking others (myself included) chalking it up to the "stupid" he had had to put up with on the boards led me to believe that you agreed with his denigrations. if i misunderstood what you meant by the stupid comment, please do clarify.

 

[theyoungest]

Bram Tankink (Rabobank) has been suffering from bronchitis the past few days, and this is how he crossed the finish line today: video

I'm rooting for him to make it to the Champs-Elysees. Although realistically I think he'll be a DNS tomorrow.

 

[luckyboy]

Wow, this is still going on?

 

[Pleadthe5th]

Right. I'm pretty sure LA was never booed on the podium. And no one has ever seen him being spat upon on the road, either. Myth. Now, if LA had pulled some crap like today, then you'd have seen him booed on the podium.

not true...Lance was spat upon by some German fans at the end of a mountain stage 1 year and during a Time Trial on another occasion.

 

[Dedelou]

Okay... the wind eschelon is one thing... but seriously on the "short cut"? There are plenty of things to attack Lance on... but avoiding a crash in front of him, riding off road for a bit, getting off the bike, jumping a ditch, then getting back on and pedaling BEHIND the group he was with to catch up... well that's not much of a shortcut. They did slow up for him though... and probably still would have had he somehow stopped in his tracks, then pedaled along the road the "long" way around.

Probably you are right... i was just flying a little high on the hyperboles.. Don't take it too seriously.

 

[Dedelou]

Just a thought.
Lets say the mechanical didn't happen...
Andy crosses the summit with 10'' over Vino and 20'' over AC, Samu et al (succesful attack, right?).
What is the normal progression of things? They finish all in the same group imo.

Since i want to continue following with the same passion, i'm ready to buy the "Andy's fault" interpretation

just a thought.. let say we just use what we have seen up till the moment of andy's huge mistake, okay: We have Andy attacking strongly with a few kilometer to the top. The move is quite strong and takes a few people by surprise. so far so good? yes. Astana's super domestic respond and in a few seconds is on Andy wheel.. still good?
the other contenders, Ac being the first burst in a chase. Contador leading Sanchez and Manshov by a few meters at best.. so.. where would it go from there. Well your guess is about as good as mine because after that Andy drops the ball and that's was where the story ended. So we will never know. Your so called 10 seconds or 20 are just fantasy cycling material. Not event good enough to be used to predict what will happen tomorrow. Event like that only predict one thing : There is going to be feelings on BOTH sides tomorrow. Andre angry because if feels victimized and the media fed on it. Conti probably will be bent in showing some pride that he doesn't need freak accident to beat Andy.. Plus the other two who must be feeling sensitive that in the end they are the ones who profited the most of the event. Let us stay tune for tomorrow's stage: it was meant to be "L'etape Reine" now it will be D-Day