Team Astana's shameful legacy

[Race Radio]

“It’s safe to say that everyone was very disappointed by this turn of events,” Cookson told VeloNews Friday. “But if we assume that there have been three cases, that’s something that’s obviously very, very serious and that’s why we’ve referred it to the licensing commission, asking them to look into all the issues around that and make recommendations as to what impact these issues should have on the license of Astana. That’s the right and proper process. That’s what the license commission was established to do, and we’re going to let them get on with their job now.”

Cookson said he has not and will not meet with Astana officials until after the committee has discussed the team’s license.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...-astana-issue-mpcc_349730#WxMIIlsfZ16I8cd4.99

The UCI’s License Commission is a committee composed of four members who are independent of the UCI: President of the Commission since 2004, Pierre Zappelli is a former Swiss Supreme Federal Court judge; Hans Höhener, is a former president of the Swiss Athletics Federation and a senior corporate executive; PhD André Hürter, is president of the board of directors for Schnyder SA Biel; and Paolo Franz, who is a senior manager at IBM.

“The impact on the team could be quite serious. I don’t want to say any more than that at this stage, because it’s ongoing,”

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Peace Tour.

Gazprom would sponsor, Popo would be team leader, and Viktor Yushchenko would be patron.

Lance would fly the Oakley owner Jim Jannard's jet alliteration MH17

Either it's in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland or it's not proper. I have a bit of a strange love affair with the Friedensfahrt.

Though the Gazprom Tour of Russia could have some steep mountains around Sochi and all that I guess. And instead of a parade stage, if they had the Krylatskoye Ring as a final stage you could have some really great finishes.

Did you know there used to be a two week Tour of the Soviet Union? It tended to start in Moscow or St Petersburg, but quite a lot of it was held in areas that aren't in Russia - Ukraine and Estonia used to hold a few stages. You could probably have some decent hilly stages in the Urals and Nizhny Novgorod has the scope for some hills. However the race was typically mostly flat and probably wouldn't have too much value in modern cycling. At least until the situation in the Crimea is over. Vladivostok would make an excellent host for a hilly circuit, but imagine the transfers!

 

[HSNHSN]

Either it's in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland or it's not proper. I have a bit of a strange love affair with the Friedensfahrt.

Though the Gazprom Tour of Russia could have some steep mountains around Sochi and all that I guess. And instead of a parade stage, if they had the Krylatskoye Ring as a final stage you could have some really great finishes.

Did you know there used to be a two week Tour of the Soviet Union? It tended to start in Moscow or St Petersburg, but quite a lot of it was held in areas that aren't in Russia - Ukraine and Estonia used to hold a few stages. You could probably have some decent hilly stages in the Urals and Nizhny Novgorod has the scope for some hills. However the race was typically mostly flat and probably wouldn't have too much value in modern cycling. At least until the situation in the Crimea is over. Vladivostok would make an excellent host for a hilly circuit, but imagine the transfers!

I have to say I really like this idea for a future tour. One shouldn't have too many transfers, but if it is restricted to a particular area of Russia each year, that shouldn't really be a problem. It's a pity good part of the mountainous area near Georgia couldn't be used, though, due to the ongoing Dagestan and Chechnya conflicts.

 

[pastronef]

Vayer (festinaboy) about the Tour win

Antoine VAYER
@festinaboy
Les journalistes "vélo", maintes fois "cocufiés" ont eu le courage de ne sacrer Péraud que vélo d'or National, sachant qu'il a gagné le Tour

Cycling journalists repeatedly "cuckolded" had the courage to give the French Velo d'Or (instead of the International Velo d'Or) to Péraud, even knowing he won the Tour
...

 

[roundabout]

The guy riding on the team that had 2 positives within 8 months in the not too distant past?

Why not Pinot then?

 

[the sceptic]

Vayer seems a bit too fast to declare his favourite riders cleans.

I mean Peraud did a mini Horner this tour but no one seems to care.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I have to say I really like this idea for a future tour. One shouldn't have too many transfers, but if it is restricted to a particular area of Russia each year, that shouldn't really be a problem. It's a pity good part of the mountainous area near Georgia couldn't be used, though, due to the ongoing Dagestan and Chechnya conflicts.

Sochi has Mount Akhun and the Olympic complexes at Rosa Khutor and Laura that it could use (Rosa has more room, Laura is steeper - about 8km at 10% iirc) but little in the way of connecting climbs of the requisite size. It would be one-climb Unipublic stages all the way. Could make some good puncheur stages though.

Cycling has changed completely since the USSR days though, and a two week flat race with a couple of hills as the old Tour of the Soviet Union was would not produce good racing at all nowadays.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Vayer (festinaboy) about the Tour win

Antoine VAYER
@festinaboy
Les journalistes "vélo", maintes fois "cocufiés" ont eu le courage de ne sacrer Péraud que vélo d'or National, sachant qu'il a gagné le Tour

Cycling journalists repeatedly "cuckolded" had the courage to give the French Velo d'Or (instead of the International Velo d'Or) to Péraud, even knowing he won the Tour
...

Assume the Vélo d'Or is gender specific and Ferrand-Prévot isn't eligible then...

 

[mrhender]

The company you keep

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/fuglsang_doping_cases_are_not_good_for_me/

Birdsong singing a slightly false tune:

"This is not good for me and for what people think of me," the Danish Astana riders tells DR Sporten.

"I have signed a contract with them and I know what my values are -
I won't have anything to do with doping - and then we can just hope that the situation is now under control and that there won't be any more cases and that no one on the team tries to cheat the system."

He's been looking for a way out for some time iirc....

Remember his explanation of beeing bff with Rasmussen:

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/fuglsang_shocked_by_scale_of_rasmussens_doping_activities/

I was shocked by some things that have come out now,” Fuglsang told Wielerrevue.

“That he drove to Austria to do blood bags in the same period that we trained together for example... How is that possible?

“I remember that I came home after a period with a lot of races and thought 's***, he's really sharp,’” Fuglsang added.

“My explanation was that he was just very focused on training and I was a little tired. Now I know the real reason. I had no idea what he was doing. Many people think that I should have known because sometimes we trained together, but he gave no reason to doubt him.”

And he continues:

“But I'm sure Michael knew how I feel about doping. I would absolutely not be interested if he offered something. Maybe it's because I'm from a different generation. I'm happy where I am and want to see how far I can go, as a clean rider. Then I can say afterwards that all my results have been achieved in a fair manner.”

“It shocked me most how many risks he took,” said Fuglsang.

“He took blood substitutes that were meant for dogs for example. Then you are playing with your life? That’s how I see it. It amazed me that someone could go so far.”

“He was a good training partner, always willing to do an hour longer. That fact has nothing to do with doping, but says a lot about his mental focus. No, he was never really an idol at all. Maybe it's because I've always wanted to do it in my own way.”

Either he is really "unlucky" with the company he keeps...
Or in reverse it's a case of beeing the company you keep...

 

[Tonton]

Assume the Vélo d'Or is gender specific and Ferrand-Prévot isn't eligible then...

Actually she was runner up. To me she deserved to win it. She has won everything. He hasn't...yet?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Actually she was runner up. To me she deserved to win it. She has won everything. He hasn't...yet?

That's weird. She's the World Champion, won one of the biggest Classics and would have won the biggest stage race if it weren't for time bonuses (and that it would have been attacking her teammate to take that win), as well as winning World Cup races in MTB.

He got on the podium in the Tour, but his wins in the year amount to a stage of the Tour Med and the GC of the Critérium International. But I guess a Frenchman on the podium of the Tour is pretty huge news regardless of the injury DNFs while the low profile of women's cycling (at least outside of the Netherlands and Italy) means PFP's achievements outside of the Worlds are in races you have to be dedicated to follow, which swings the balance in his favour.

 

[Tonton]

That's weird. She's the World Champion, won one of the biggest Classics and would have won the biggest stage race if it weren't for time bonuses (and that it would have been attacking her teammate to take that win), as well as winning World Cup races in MTB.

He got on the podium in the Tour, but his wins in the year amount to a stage of the Tour Med and the GC of the Critérium International. But I guess a Frenchman on the podium of the Tour is pretty huge news regardless of the injury DNFs while the low profile of women's cycling (at least outside of the Netherlands and Italy) means PFP's achievements outside of the Worlds are in races you have to be dedicated to follow, which swings the balance in his favour.

It is weird indeed. She's the real deal, and so young. She deserved the Velo d'Or, or two of them actually Peraud deserves big props: both he and Pinot created the kind of excitement that the French public so desperately needed since...well... '98

By the way, is there a way to post a Word or Pdf document on the race design thread? I have a nice 2017 TdF to share. Thx

 

[blackcat]

Either it's in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland or it's not proper. I have a bit of a strange love affair with the Friedensfahrt.

Though the Gazprom Tour of Russia could have some steep mountains around Sochi and all that I guess. And instead of a parade stage, if they had the Krylatskoye Ring as a final stage you could have some really great finishes.

Did you know there used to be a two week Tour of the Soviet Union? It tended to start in Moscow or St Petersburg, but quite a lot of it was held in areas that aren't in Russia - Ukraine and Estonia used to hold a few stages. You could probably have some decent hilly stages in the Urals and Nizhny Novgorod has the scope for some hills. However the race was typically mostly flat and probably wouldn't have too much value in modern cycling. At least until the situation in the Crimea is over. Vladivostok would make an excellent host for a hilly circuit, but imagine the transfers!

i only remember the 5 Rings of Moscow, is this one of the names you are referencing above LS?

and i know that is only the last dozen years. They always had the strong former USSR amateur teams that used to drill it, and were probably like Tour of Normandy or Tour of Brittany where they get the best espoir teams and div 2 or semi amateur teams, and everyone is out for a contract. like l'Avenir, but without the major cache, but just as competitive. Always used to get riders like Mikhael Ignatiev winning them then coming out and winning the worlds u23 tt and making the top 5 in the rr.

But i really know nothing about Russian cycling.

 

[Tonton]

i only remember the 5 Rings of Moscow, is this one of the names you are referencing above LS?

and i know that is only the last dozen years. They always had the strong former USSR amateur teams that used to drill it, and were probably like Tour of Normandy or Tour of Brittany where they get the best espoir teams and div 2 or semi amateur teams, and everyone is out for a contract. like l'Avenir, but without the major cache, but just as competitive. Always used to get riders like Mikhael Ignatiev winning them then coming out and winning the worlds u23 tt and making the top 5 in the rr.

But i really know nothing about Russian cycling.

Friedensfahrt in German, Course de la Paix in French, communist block amateur TdF if you will. Back in the day, a Russian named Soukhoroutchenko (probably mispelled here ) was dominating it. Always wondered what he would have done as a pro. Great cyclist.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

i only remember the 5 Rings of Moscow, is this one of the names you are referencing above LS?

and i know that is only the last dozen years. They always had the strong former USSR amateur teams that used to drill it, and were probably like Tour of Normandy or Tour of Brittany where they get the best espoir teams and div 2 or semi amateur teams, and everyone is out for a contract. like l'Avenir, but without the major cache, but just as competitive. Always used to get riders like Mikhael Ignatiev winning them then coming out and winning the worlds u23 tt and making the top 5 in the rr.

But i really know nothing about Russian cycling.

5 Rings of Moscow is a relatively recent race. The Tour of the USSR was a much earlier event that tended to run over two weeks.

The most important race over that side of Europe was the Friedensfahrt, though the DDR-Rundfahrt and Tour de Pologne were both prestigious as well. There were some key one-day races as well (Berlin-Cottbus-Berlin and the Rund um Berlin are particularly notable). The Soviets had two eras of domination, one in the mid-60s with names like Gennady Lebedev, Alexey Petrov and Gainan Saydkhuzhin, and one from the mid 70s to the early 80s with Aavo Pikkuus (an Estonian all-rounder with a killer ITT and who wore the leader's jersey start to finish in the 1977 race before retiring a few years later to take up rally driving aged 27), Yuri Barinov, Shakhid Zagretdinov, Aleksandr Averin and the aforementioned Sergey Sukhoruchenkov (who was the greatest climber the Eastern Bloc ever produced, by some distance, winning the Olympics in 1980 with a stupendously long range attack (he in fact attacked at km 0 to stay with a select group for a while before soloing in from miles out), Avenir twice, Regioni, and nearly anything mountainous that he entered - unfortunately there just weren't enough hilly races in the Ostbloc back then and the number of strong Soviet riders meant he didn't always get selections if courses didn't suit him) all winning the Friedensfahrt in a period from 1977 to 1981, with Soukho winning again in 1984; at the same time you had monster Estonian sprinter/cobbled hardman Riho Suun, and break specialist Oleg Chuzhda (father of the current Oleg Chuzhda) who podiumed the race in a surprise result in 1983. Ivan Mishchenko was also a very strong Soviet rider at the time, however the mid-80s saw a revamped DDR team take over as the foremost Ostbloc team, what with Olaf Ludwig winning a sprint at the end of every brutal flat stage (at least until Abdoujaparov showed up in the late 80s), Uwe Ampler (son of former Peace Race winner Klaus) killing everybody in the chrono, and Uwe Raab, Falk Boden, Jan Schur (son of East Germany's favourite sportsman and one of the Ostbloc's greatest ever riders, Täve Schur) and Olaf Jentzsch the rest of the time (not to mention that arguably their best rider, Wolfgang Lötzsch, was kept out of teams much of the time owing to his perceived unreliability due to political beliefs). The Soviets still had enough strong riders to make an impact with the likes of Ugrumov and Abdou though.

The Friedensfahrt did head to the Soviet Union twice though, first in 1985 (it had a Prologue in Prague, then travelled to Moscow for three stages before returning to Prague for its usual three capitals), then in 1986 (perhaps the most notorious Friedensfahrt craziness - the politics that fuelled the event would make an interesting subject all of their own, and this was the zenith - the opening four days being spent in Kiev, just after the Chernobyl disaster. All Western teams bar the French and the extremely loyal Finns (they entered the Friedensfahrt on 39 separate occasions without a single stage win to their name) withdrew before the race leaving its smallest péloton in years; major riders from the bigger nations were given no illusions that choosing not to take part would not adversely affect their careers.

The Ostbloc riders mostly showed up in major amateur events and the open races of the mid-70s onwards. After the first "glory days" of the event in the 50s, the standards in the East slipped a bit, and western amateurs won a fair few events in the late 60s (Marcel Maes, Bernard Guyot and Jean-Pierre Danguillaume winning the Peace Race outright between 66 and 69), however from the advent of the great Polish team of the early 70s, led by Ryszard Szurkowski, thought by many to be the greatest of all Iron Curtain cyclists, saw a real transformation in their fortunes. Being able to enter Paris-Nice one year was fascinating, when Szurkowski managed to finish 2nd only to Merckx in one stage, although he fell away on Mont Faron (28th overall in the end). However, that an amateur would come 2nd only to the great Cannibal was seen as a potential propaganda tool in the East and soon DDR, Czechoslovak and of course Soviet squads were entering amateur events in the West and acquitting themselves well; several other races in the West were also seeing the potential of being "open" events, allowing both the limited number of pro teams of the time to be padded out with amateurs (in practice meaning very strong cyclists from Eastern Europe showing up). As a result, you'll see major Ostbloc names all over results lists of races like Sarthe and Luxembourg in the late 70s and early 80s.

The history of cycling in the Eastern bloc is fascinating and it's really sad that a lot of it has been forgotten; because of its amateur nature, the race was naturally going to crumble in stature as soon as the biggest Ostbloc riders were allowed to turn pro, because many of the names that made it what it was couldn't ride anymore. And because of the politics, the race is rather looked back on through the eyes of the propaganda machines that fuelled it (most of which lost most of their funding and circulation post-Wende). And due to the limitation on being professional and the lower number and level of events riders would enter over there, it really would be interesting to see how the best riders of the era would have coped against the Westerners. We only occasionally got to see it.

Tour de l'Avenir 1982 - there's Sergey Sukhoruchenkov on the left, who won the race overall in 1978 and 1979 and is the only two-time winner of the race, and Greg Lemond in the middle.

We saw from the early 90s what a lot of the riders of the time of the Wende could do when given a professional's time, effort and race calendar: the likes of Olaf Ludwig, Djamolidine Abdoujaparov, Piotr Ugrumov, Uwe Ampler and Dmitry Konyshev showed it. I just wish we could have seen what Jan Veselý, Täve Schur, Ryszard Szurkowski, Aavo Pikkuus or Sergey Sukhoruchenkov could have done with those same opportunities.

 

[grizzlee]

5 Rings of Moscow is a relatively recent race. The Tour of the USSR was a much earlier event that tended to run over two weeks.

The most important race over that side of Europe was the Friedensfahrt, though the DDR-Rundfahrt and Tour de Pologne were both prestigious as well. There were some key one-day races as well (Berlin-Cottbus-Berlin and the Rund um Berlin are particularly notable). The Soviets had two eras of domination, one in the mid-60s with names like Gennady Lebedev, Alexey Petrov and Gainan Saydkhuzhin, and one from the mid 70s to the early 80s with Aavo Pikkuus (an Estonian all-rounder with a killer ITT and who wore the leader's jersey start to finish in the 1977 race before retiring a few years later to take up rally driving aged 27), Yuri Barinov, Shakhid Zagretdinov, Aleksandr Averin and the aforementioned Sergey Sukhoruchenkov (who was the greatest climber the Eastern Bloc ever produced, by some distance, winning the Olympics in 1980 with a stupendously long range attack (he in fact attacked at km 0 to stay with a select group for a while before soloing in from miles out), Avenir twice, Regioni, and nearly anything mountainous that he entered - unfortunately there just weren't enough hilly races in the Ostbloc back then and the number of strong Soviet riders meant he didn't always get selections if courses didn't suit him) all winning the Friedensfahrt in a period from 1977 to 1981, with Soukho winning again in 1984; at the same time you had monster Estonian sprinter/cobbled hardman Riho Suun, and break specialist Oleg Chuzhda (father of the current Oleg Chuzhda) who podiumed the race in a surprise result in 1983. Ivan Mishchenko was also a very strong Soviet rider at the time, however the mid-80s saw a revamped DDR team take over as the foremost Ostbloc team, what with Olaf Ludwig winning a sprint at the end of every brutal flat stage (at least until Abdoujaparov showed up in the late 80s), Uwe Ampler (son of former Peace Race winner Klaus) killing everybody in the chrono, and Uwe Raab, Falk Boden, Jan Schur (son of East Germany's favourite sportsman and one of the Ostbloc's greatest ever riders, Täve Schur) and Olaf Jentzsch the rest of the time (not to mention that arguably their best rider, Wolfgang Lötzsch, was kept out of teams much of the time owing to his perceived unreliability due to political beliefs). The Soviets still had enough strong riders to make an impact with the likes of Ugrumov and Abdou though.

The Friedensfahrt did head to the Soviet Union twice though, first in 1985 (it had a Prologue in Prague, then travelled to Moscow for three stages before returning to Prague for its usual three capitals), then in 1986 (perhaps the most notorious Friedensfahrt craziness - the politics that fuelled the event would make an interesting subject all of their own, and this was the zenith - the opening four days being spent in Kiev, just after the Chernobyl disaster. All Western teams bar the French and the extremely loyal Finns (they entered the Friedensfahrt on 39 separate occasions without a single stage win to their name) withdrew before the race leaving its smallest péloton in years; major riders from the bigger nations were given no illusions that choosing not to take part would not adversely affect their careers.

The Ostbloc riders mostly showed up in major amateur events and the open races of the mid-70s onwards. After the first "glory days" of the event in the 50s, the standards in the East slipped a bit, and western amateurs won a fair few events in the late 60s (Marcel Maes, Bernard Guyot and Jean-Pierre Danguillaume winning the Peace Race outright between 66 and 69), however from the advent of the great Polish team of the early 70s, led by Ryszard Szurkowski, thought by many to be the greatest of all Iron Curtain cyclists, saw a real transformation in their fortunes. Being able to enter Paris-Nice one year was fascinating, when Szurkowski managed to finish 2nd only to Merckx in one stage, although he fell away on Mont Faron (28th overall in the end). However, that an amateur would come 2nd only to the great Cannibal was seen as a potential propaganda tool in the East and soon DDR, Czechoslovak and of course Soviet squads were entering amateur events in the West and acquitting themselves well; several other races in the West were also seeing the potential of being "open" events, allowing both the limited number of pro teams of the time to be padded out with amateurs (in practice meaning very strong cyclists from Eastern Europe showing up). As a result, you'll see major Ostbloc names all over results lists of races like Sarthe and Luxembourg in the late 70s and early 80s.

The history of cycling in the Eastern bloc is fascinating and it's really sad that a lot of it has been forgotten; because of its amateur nature, the race was naturally going to crumble in stature as soon as the biggest Ostbloc riders were allowed to turn pro, because many of the names that made it what it was couldn't ride anymore. And because of the politics, the race is rather looked back on through the eyes of the propaganda machines that fuelled it (most of which lost most of their funding and circulation post-Wende). And due to the limitation on being professional and the lower number and level of events riders would enter over there, it really would be interesting to see how the best riders of the era would have coped against the Westerners. We only occasionally got to see it.

Tour de l'Avenir 1982 - there's Sergey Sukhoruchenkov on the left, who won the race overall in 1978 and 1979 and is the only two-time winner of the race, and Greg Lemond in the middle.

We saw from the early 90s what a lot of the riders of the time of the Wende could do when given a professional's time, effort and race calendar: the likes of Olaf Ludwig, Djamolidine Abdoujaparov, Piotr Ugrumov, Uwe Ampler and Dmitry Konyshev showed it. I just wish we could have seen what Jan Veselý, Täve Schur, Ryszard Szurkowski, Aavo Pikkuus or Sergey Sukhoruchenkov could have done with those same opportunities.

Probably the most thought out and most insightful piece i have ever read in the Clinic. Kudos to you.

 

[del1962]

The MPCC press release noted that in suspending itself the team “fully observed the regulation of MPCC in a very short time (four days).”

Self suspended from a race they probably did not want to go to anyway.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mpcc-praises-astana-criticizes-neri-sottoli

In other news Vino says

“I’m angry like never before. I feel betrayed,

and

we want to show that we are transparent,

and

Maybe I was too naïve about the Kazakh riders on the team sometimes.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-i-cant-keep-paying-for-2007-all-my-life


Anyway Vincenczo says

It’s a case that’s isolated to one family

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-considering-giro-tour-double

 

[del1962]

More words of wisdom from Vino

We’re in the MPCC because we want to show that we are transparent

During this year’s Tour, Vinokourov pointedly refused to discuss his 2007 positive test,

So that is transparency.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So that is transparency.

Would you prefer he was more vague?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Would you prefer he was more vague?

That would be quite a feat, since he's being about as transparent as a brick wall.

But, in any case, the silly boy has used the dreaded "T" word.
Such a claim means the transparency police will now be on his case.
Before you know it, this thread will be 20,000 posts long.

(or not)

 

[Race Radio]

It's all fixed now, they signed a piece of paper

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=73464&tp=n

 

[glassmoon]

It's all fixed now, they signed a piece of paper

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=73464&tp=n

Trolling level: Vino

 

[fmk_RoI]

It's all fixed now, they signed a piece of paper

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=73464&tp=n

This is what the IOC demands if they want the Winter Olympics to go to Amaty.

I like that they haven't a clue what a biometric passport is...if only you could spot doping thru fingerprints, iris scans or facial rec...

 

[Race Radio]

Dr Emilio Magni, former Pantani and Fasso Bortolo doctor, Joins Astana.

https://translate.google.com/transl...ennen/141101_Nibali-dokter-Pantani&edit-text=

 

[Race Radio]

Dario Frigo testified under oath that during his time at Fasso there was an organized doping program with great pressure to dope. Danielson said one of the Fasso Team doctors (Redacted name Other-1) told him about some of the riders having 2nd apartments where they stored their drugs.