Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Justinr]

that's an interesting/plausible guess.
but why didn't it freak out sky?

Maybe because they dont use blood bags?

 

[Justinr]

Bingo. Seems pretty obvious that's why people are talking about it. If it was a bad idea for him to ride MSR, seems like that would have been figured out say...4 months ago or whenever they decided on Stannards program.

Would they have a schedule to support / ride certain races for (a) pro tour reasons and (b) sponsor reasons? With Henao sidelined and an injury or two couldnt that result in lots of changes?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you find it strange that Wiggins signed a 2 year contract with Garmin, knowing full well 100% that Sky would have a team in his second year of said contract?

Surely, if DB thought Wiggo could do anything on the road worth paying for he would have told Wiggo to sign a 1 year so there were no problems getting on the Sky team the following year?

cf with Ian Stannard, in Italy, getting shown the ropes by Max Sciandri:

After his debut senior classics season in 2008, Stannard went to live in Italy. Max Sciandri got him a ride for ISD, at the time run by Luca Scinto, whom he credits with teaching him a lot about the life of a pro (“how to train like a professional, and how to race like a professional”). He rode his first Grand Tour – the Giro.

...

It was almost like just filling in a year. Those teams were all offering two-year contracts, but we all wanted Sky.

http://rouleur.cc/journal/riders/ian-stannard

Theory: Wiggo took a 2 year contract because he wanted time to get his program right before selling his services to Sky. In fact it almost makes me wonder if Sky had even offered him a ride. Old and useless is how he had been on the road up to that point. Bone idle, even. If only he could have made friends with someone who knew what to do...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Someone with contacts and experience at wringing the very best out of yourself...

"I love him," Wiggins said. "I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense. Even his strongest critics have benefitted from him. I don't think this sport will ever realise what he's brought it or how big he's made it.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/jul/25/tour-de-france-2010-lance-armstrong

 

[The Hitch]

Do you find it strange that Wiggins signed a 2 year contract with Garmin, knowing full well 100% that Sky would have a team in his second year of said contract?

That is a good question.

Surely, if DB thought Wiggo could do anything on the road worth paying for he would have told Wiggo to sign a 1 year so there were no problems getting on the Sky team the following year?

Wiggo was nowhere near anywhere the person they were expecting to take to the Tour as a winner.

His 4th place is the only reason Sky wanted him as badly as they did, ending up paying a premium in transfer fees to Garmin.

And the kicker for me: Garmin DIDN'T TRAIN HIM. SKY DID!

BAhahahhahahahahahahaaa

Oh god.

You could not write a more farcical time line IF YOU TRIED.

 

[bobbins]

I've been reliably told that Stannard is clean, be sceptical by all means but I'm happy to believe what I've been told as the source is very reliable.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I've been reliably told that Stannard is clean, be sceptical by all means but I'm happy to believe what I've been told as the source is very reliable.

I doubt there are many who would consider him a doper here.

Sky are certainly wringing their money's worth out of him.

 

[frenchfry]

I am more and more convinced that the hand washing thing is just a smokescreen, and that customised pillows are the real thing. Along with correct placement of the seatpost bolt of course.

 

[RownhamHill]

Theory: Wiggo took a 2 year contract because he wanted time to get his program right before selling his services to Sky. In fact it almost makes me wonder if Sky had even offered him a ride. Old and useless is how he had been on the road up to that point. Bone idle, even. If only he could have made friends with someone who knew what to do...

When Sky was first being thought about and set up the initial panning was all based on signing Cav and building the team around him for sprint wins - the idea being there's an emerging British superstar who has come through the academy who you could have lots of success around while getting the team (ie the whole team infrastructure not just the riders) used to road racing.

At the time Wiggins signed for Garmin (2008) he was already riding for Highroad and was part of Cav's sprint train, so presumably didn't fancy hanging around to sign up for even one more year more of that, let alone three or four (for whatever reason, ego, ambition, whatever) - indeed had he been content to be just part of Cav's train he would have stayed at Highroad in 2009, no?

Anyway, then things change - Cav get's the hump with BC after the 2008 Olympics, and signs an extension at HTC, meaning he can't come to Sky in 2010, and both Cav and Wiggins have extraordinary 2009 Tours - suddenly Sky is left launching with the two British star riders not riding for them, so they move heaven and earth to get Wiggins, and suddenly their focus is winning a GT in five years with a British rider (a claim that in 2011 Brailsford was rowing backwards from for a while).

I haven't got a link for this, but try reading Cav's autobiography (Boy Racer) and Richard Moore's Sky's the limit - I think there were some extracts from the latter in the Guardian at some point if someone wants to investigate via Google.

 

[Netserk]

When Sky was first being thought about and set up the initial panning was all based on signing Cav and building the team around him for sprint wins - the idea being there's an emerging British superstar who has come through the academy who you could have lots of success around while getting the team (ie the whole team infrastructure not just the riders) used to road racing.

At the time Wiggins signed for Garmin (2008) he was already riding for Highroad and was part of Cav's sprint train, so presumably didn't fancy hanging around to sign up for even one more year more of that, let alone three or four (for whatever reason, ego, ambition, whatever) - indeed had he been content to be just part of Cav's train he would have stayed at Highroad in 2009, no?

Anyway, then things change - Cav get's the hump with BC after the 2008 Olympics, and signs an extension at HTC, meaning he can't come to Sky in 2010, and both Cav and Wiggins have extraordinary 2009 Tours - suddenly Sky is left launching with the two British star riders not riding for them, so they move heaven and earth to get Wiggins, and suddenly their focus is winning a GT in five years with a British rider (a claim that in 2011 Brailsford was rowing backwards from for a while).

I haven't got a link for this, but try reading Cav's autobiography (Boy Racer) and Richard Moore's Sky's the limit - I think there were some extracts from the latter in the Guardian at some point if someone wants to investigate via Google.

That time line doesn't make sense, since they wanted the British Tour winner prior to that Tour.

 

[King Boonen]

That time line doesn't make sense, since they wanted the British Tour winner prior to that Tour.

Do you mean DB/Sky/BC had stated they wanted to win the within 5 years before 2009 (Sky's timeline for that goal)? Or that they wanted a winner before 2009 (something I've not heard before)?

Either way it's perfectly possible they weren't talking about Wiggins. There are other riders that could have been the intended prospects at that point, for instance Thomas or Kennaugh.

 

[Netserk]

It doesn't matter if they were talking about Wiggo or not. The 2009 Tour couldn't suddenly change their focus to something they already focused on before that Tour.

 

[King Boonen]

It doesn't matter if they were talking about Wiggo or not. The 2009 Tour couldn't suddenly change their focus to something they already focused on before that Tour.

So you're saying DB/Sky/BC stated before the 2009 Tour that they were aiming to win the Tour with a British rider within 5 years? But Sky only formed in 2009, so was this just a DB quote?

But anyway I don't think that's what he's imply. I think he is implying that their short-term focus was Cav while they learnt about road racing and built for a Tour win, but with Cav getting the hump and Wiggins doing ridiculously well in 2009 compared to previous form their short-term goal shifted from sprinting and their only goal was now the Tour win.


It's perfectly plausible that they shifted the majority of their focus onto this goal, whereas before it was something they were focused on but as a range of goals. I think that is what he means, not that they suddenly decided to go and try win the Tour after Wiggins did well.

 

[Netserk]

"and suddenly their focus [after the 2009 Tour, red.] is winning a GT in five years with a British rider"

All I'm saying is that this quite clearly isn't the case, since that was their goal already prior to that Tour. It really is quite simple what I wrote.

 

[King Boonen]

"and suddenly their focus [after the 2009 Tour, red.] is winning a GT in five years with a British rider"

All I'm saying is that this quite clearly isn't the case, since that was their goal already prior to that Tour. It really is quite simple what I wrote.

Do you have a link to a quote?

That would clear it up, I just don't remember a Sky quote from before the 2009 Tour stating that.

 

[The Hitch]

It's really simple. Brailsford announced before wiggos metamorphosis that sky were going to.win the tdf with a British rider within 5 years.

So the comment cannot have been a reaction to wiggos performance, as suggested, since chronologically it proceeded the 2009 tour De france.

This is a good example of the kind of arguments sky doubters often have with sky defenders. The sky doubter, is already familiar with the facts. The defender is not fully and proposes there is some middle ground that will probably make sky look less suspicious. There is no middle ground. Sky announced before wiggos 09 tdf that they were going to win the tdf in the immediate future with a British rider (ie a as yet nobody whoever that is, who was going to learn the ropes in an insanely short time and beat out all the active top riders). Not during. Not after. Before.


No wonder you guys thought sky may be clean. You weren't aware of the fact that they had already announced the British rider will win tdf plan, before they had a British rider capbale of finishing inside the top 50. Now that you know this will you aknowledge it's dodgy

Or to paraphrase byop will you go the extra mile to try and find another way around?

 

[King Boonen]

Found a statement myself, 26 feb 2009:

http://corporate.sky.com/media/press_releases/2009/team_sky

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you have a link to a quote?

That would clear it up, I just don't remember a Sky quote from before the 2009 Tour stating that.

Googled, "brailsford winner in 5 years"

2nd link: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/feb/26/cycling-great-britain-brailsford

That's February 2009, and they are saying:

The phrase "epic story" was much in evidence yesterday when the Great Britain cycling performance director, Dave Brailsford, revealed that Sky is to back him in perhaps the greatest challenge of his coaching career: producing, at some point in the next five years, a British cyclist capable of competing with the best in the overall standings of the Tour de France.

Well worth the read. Not a single word about Wiggo. Nada.

More specific a few links down, published Feb 28, 2009:

‘Our ambitions for the 2012 London Olympics are going to be increased by this project but, ultimately, we are in this to win the Tour de France.

‘That has never been done by a British rider so it’s about time we put the record straight.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1155774/British-cyclists-reach-sky-Brailsford-targets-home-winner-Tour-France.html

 

[King Boonen]

No wonder you guys thought sky may be clean. You weren't aware of the fact that they had already announced the British rider will win tdf plan, before they had a British rider capbale of finishing inside the top 50. Now that you know this will you aknowledge it's dodgy

Or to paraphrase byop will you go the extra mile to try and find another way around?

The aim was dodgy? no, not really. More foolish I suppose.

 

[King Boonen]

Googled, "brailsford winner in 5 years"

2nd link: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/feb/26/cycling-great-britain-brailsford

That's February, and they are saying:




More specific a few links down:

Thanks, I found a Sky press release as well which I probably posted while you were posting this.

Links are always good when dismissing someones point

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thanks, I found a Sky press release as well which I probably posted while you were posting this.

Links are always good when dismissing someones point

Do you mind telling me how you found that link? What process did you go through?

 

[sniper]

in the usada thread RR just explained how Lance provided most info for Plant's mcquaid dossier, as an act of vengeance after mcquaid had said there aint no place for lance in cycling. Now, Wiggins hasn't been very supportive of lance either in the press after the usada file.
i wonder is Wiggins scared of lance now that they are no longer best friends?
wonder does Lance have something on him.

 

[Saint Unix]

The aim was dodgy? no, not really. More foolish I suppose.

Managing to complete that aim with not one, but two riders two years before the five years ran out is dodgy as hell, though. Especially considering their starting point, which was beyond terrible. Britain hadn't had a rider capable of riding mountains since Robert Millar. Their best climber at the time the 5 year plan was put forward was Charles Wegelius.

If they put Geraint Thomas on the podium of the Tour it'll be beyond farcical.

 

[Netserk]

The aim was dodgy? no, not really. More foolish I suppose.

And yet they managed to win the Tour with two different riders within those five years, both riders far from being GC contenders at the time the goal was set

 

[sniper]

Found a statement myself, 26 feb 2009:

http://corporate.sky.com/media/press_releases/2009/team_sky

tbh, it just gets uglier and uglier, seeing how this was all stage-managed.

Dave Brailsford CBE, Team Principal for Team Sky, said: “This has been a dream for some time and now Sky is making it happen. It wouldn’t work without them.

“Team Sky will bring to a professional road team the performance principles that have worked so well with the current GB teams; commitment, meticulous planning, the aggregation of marginal gains and a rider-centred philosophy.

“We want to make heroes, persuade a generation to pull on Team Sky colours and inspire people to ride. This will be an epic story; building a British team to take on the best in professional cycling, and win.”

you can't make this up.
does this have anything to do with sports still?
sport is supposed to be unpredictable.